Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

Act? How?

And why?

The EU banned roaming surcharges within the EU. UK has left the EU so that law doesn’t apply

The EU has not imposed roaming charges on non EU countries, the UK could very easily pass a law that forbids roaming charges within Ireland but the EU should not, and can not impose that law on the UK

J Mysterio

Looks like Dominic Cummings name dropped Laura Kuenssberg as someone he fed 'news' to. Shock horror. BBC cut the interview feed right before it, but was witnessed by many live on Sky apparently. 'Downing St. sources say'...

https://twitter.com/Card5hark/status/1397499553809670147?s=20

Charles Babbage

Akrasia wrote: »

And why?

The EU banned roaming surcharges within the EU. UK has left the EU so that law doesn’t apply

The EU has not imposed roaming charges on non EU countries, the UK could very easily pass a law that forbids roaming charges within Ireland but the EU should not, and can not impose that law on the UK

Nobody said the EU should impose such a law. I said the Irish government should act within the GFA structures to preserve any consumer measures the EU had introduced which facilitated travel within Ireland. Nowhere have I seen an explicit intention to do this.

Peregrinus

Akrasia wrote: »

And why?

The EU banned roaming surcharges within the EU. UK has left the EU so that law doesn’t apply

The EU has not imposed roaming charges on non EU countries, the UK could very easily pass a law that forbids roaming charges within Ireland but the EU should not, and can not impose that law on the UK

That's not how it works.

When you go roaming in the UK, your Irish provider has to buy capacity from a UK network and then resell that to you. He can only resell it to you at the domestic rate if he can buy it in the UK at a wholesale rate that makes this possible.

The EU regulation dealing with roaming regulates both the retail rate your provide can charge you for roaming and the wholesale rate at which your provide can buy capacity in other EU countries. If it only regulated the retail rate, the likely result would be that your provider wouldn't offer you roaming at all.

So, the UK government cannot simply pass a law telling UK providers that they must sell roaming to their customers travelling in Ireland at the UK domestic rate. For the system to work there needs to be a law in Ireland regulating what the Irish networks can charge the UK provider for the capacity required. And of course the UK goverment can't pass a law telling Irish networks what to do.

And vice versa for customers of Irish providers who are travelling in the UK.

So there are two ways in which domestic-rate roaming could be preserved.

First, the networks could voluntarily continue the practice of selling Irish capacity to UK providers, and UK capacity to Irish providers, at the EU-regulated rate for intra-EU regulated sales. And then they could voluntarily continue to charge their own customers for roaming services at the domestic rate. So far, that's what has happened, but it will only continue to happen if all the companies involved think it's in their interests for it to continue.

Secondly, the Irish and UK governments could both pass reciprocal laws requiring their networks to sell capacity to providers in the other country at the EU-regulated rate, and requiring their providers to provide roaming in the other country at the domestic rate. There are two possible obstacles to this:

1. On the Irish side, it's possible that this isn't a national competence. I haven't looked into this, and I don't think it's likely to be the case, but it's possible that any agreement about this would have to be an EU/UK agreement rather than an IRL/UK agreement.

2. On the UK side, there's a strong ideological objection to any kind of alignment with EU norms, which this deal would require. So I think the UK government's instinct would be to refuse to make such a deal.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please do not just paste links here. Post and response removed.

yagan

Peregrinus wrote: »

1. On the Irish side, it's possible that this isn't a national competence. I haven't looked into this, and I don't think it's likely to be the case, but it's possible that any agreement about this would have to be an EU/UK agreement rather than an IRL/UK agreement.

2. On the UK side, there's a strong ideological objection to any kind of alignment with EU norms, which this deal would require. So I think the UK government's instinct would be to refuse to make such a deal.

On the first point the treaty governing the cross border institutions is supranational and designed when the UK and Ireland were both in the EU.

On the second point Brexit is an English national revolt and Johnson got his massive majority precisely to sideline any DUP veto.

Overall the reality of erecting a 500 Km UK/EU customs border is Ireland is a sell too far to an England First impulse.

CelticRambler

Hostile environement, anyone?

D’Alberti planned a road trip from his home in Côte d’Azur as a pleasant diversion during the pandemic on his way to Ireland to meet his wife’s family in Kerry. Instead, he said, he was held for hours, fingerprinted and photographed “like I was a criminal” as he had not booked every hotel for his trip after quarantine and he did not have a return ticket.

I suppose there might be some savings to be made by killing off the Visit Britain agency. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, it seems like the Swiss have decided that there are some benefits to Brexitiness, regardless of what the rest of us think:
Switzerland walks out of seven-year treaty talks with EU Why? Because the "moderates" didn't want to fuel the fire of populism. Where have we seen that strategy used before?

It's not set out in the Guardian article, but a French news snippet said that several bilateral EU-CH agreements will expire, particularly those relating to GDPR, rail traffic and - of course - EU funding for research and other projects.

reslfj

Peregrinus wrote: »

Ah, yes, you're quite right. To the extent that M&S stock is sourced outside the UK, or made from inputs sourced outside the UK, it may attract tariffs on the non-EU components.
.

IIRC - EU goods will face tariffs from GB to NI/RoI too, unless it is processed in GB.

E.g. repacking an EU product in GB will not be enough for re-export back to same or to another EU country.

This is likely a small problem for most businesses, but for retail distribution it might create problems.

Lars

Peregrinus

yagan wrote: »

On the first point the treaty governing the cross border institutions is supranational and designed when the UK and Ireland were both in the EU.

On the second point Brexit is an English national revolt and Johnson got his massive majority precisely to sideline any DUP veto.

Overall the reality of erecting a 500 Km UK/EU customs border is Ireland is a sell too far to an England First impulse.

In the post you're responding to, Yagan, I'm talking purely about measures to preserve the domestic-charges roaming arrangement as between Ireland and (part of) the UK. The customs border, border infrastructure, etc, has nothing to do with this. And the cross-border institutions provided for in the GFA also have nothing to do with it, beyond possibly providing a convenient forum in which the possibility of such a thing might be discussed. But if there was an interest on both sides in the project they could discuss it anyway, even if the GFA cross-border institutions didn't exist.

awec

J Mysterio wrote: »

Looks like Dominic Cummings name dropped Laura Kuenssberg as someone he fed 'news' to. Shock horror. BBC cut the interview feed right before it, but was witnessed by many live on Sky apparently. 'Downing St. sources say'...

https://twitter.com/Card5hark/status/1397499553809670147?s=20

The BBC put up the full uninterrupted clip of it on Twitter as part of their live tweeting of it, I don't think they were trying to hide anything, just bad timing for the channel change.

Capt'n Midnight

reslfj wrote: »

IIRC - EU goods will face tariffs from GB to NI/RoI too, unless it is processed in GB.

E.g. repacking an EU product in GB will not be enough for re-export back to same or to another EU country.

This is likely a small problem for most businesses, but for retail distribution it might create problems.

Lars

Affects consumers of stuff made before Brexit too. Depending on the brand it makes Japanese imports more attractive.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/0208/1195704-uk-car-imports/

Since the UK became a "third country" on 1 January, used cars imported from there that were originally manufactured in the EU or another country outside the EU, must have VAT of 21% paid on the invoice price.

A tariff of 10% has also to be paid on the cost of the vehicle within 30 days of importation and before it can be registered here.

Evd-Burner

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57282379

Uk firms paid billions in tariffs to Eu despite a tariff free deal, as businesses can’t negotiate the red tape

I still don’t understand how the business community is staying so quiet about brexit, by every indication it just created loads of problems and nothing positive

For fear of being called traitors etc might have something to do with it.

J Mysterio

Arlene's thoughts on the DUP! They are going too hardline for her!

She plans to leave the party altogether – refusing, extraordinarily, to remain in a club that won’t have her as a leader. Why?

“Because I don’t agree with the direction of travel under Edwin’s leadership. I think we are regressing and becoming more narrow. It’s quite nasty, frankly. If the union is to succeed, we need to be a bigger tent . . . The plea I would make to the party is that, if they want to secure the union, then they have to have a wide vision for the union.”

At a time when Northern Ireland really needed s figure to come out and make a positive case for NI, it's more 'no, no, no', negativity, and blsming others for their mess. The DUP really can't help themselves.

Capt'n Midnight

Remember the DUP have recently had more MP's than the Lib Dems have.
And usually support the the Tories. So can be more important in Westminster than the SNP or Lib Dems. *

J Mysterio wrote: »

Arlene's thoughts on the DUP! They are going too hardline for her!

Arlene had already jumped from the UUP. and has threatened to step down on Tuesday if Poots changes the ministerial team. Not sure if the UUP would take her back but they would welcome some others.

She won her defamation case against Dr Christian Jessen, and the legal costs could be interesting.


On a lighter note

Mrs Foster has already changed her Twitter handle from @DUPLeader to @ArleneFosterUK, taking all 96,000 followers with her.

The twitter handle @DUPLeader was quickly taken by someone else on the social media platform and is now being used as a parody account.

* Implosion ?

Exciting stuff at the DUP leadership meeting last night. Arlene Foster, Sir Jeffrey, Gavin Robinson, Diane Dodds and Gregory Campbell all walked out before Edwin’s speech.

Then Paul Bell, a member of the Fermanagh and South Tyrone DUP Association for 20 years, quit the party.

amacca

Storey turned down an opportunity to be first minister saying he did not want to be Edwin's mudguard:D

That says it all....

yagan

So the fundamentalist DUP become home for UUP suits who rejected the Belfast Agreement, and now they're dispersing after failing to torpedo the deal with Brexit.

astrofool

Poots not being first minister will only end in complete disfunction and collapse of the role (and/or executive) or his loss of leadership, surely he can see that?

Capt'n Midnight

astrofool wrote: »

Poots not being first minister will only end in complete disfunction and collapse of the role (and/or executive) or his loss of leadership, surely he can see that?

The reason he didn't become First Minister is that it's likely that the DUP will loose the role shortly.

pixelburp

astrofool wrote: »

Poots not being first minister will only end in complete disfunction and collapse of the role (and/or executive) or his loss of leadership, surely he can see that?

Methinks that's precisely the goal here. Of the many things you could say of the DUP, willing, cooperative partners within the Executive was not one of them.

Strazdas

J Mysterio wrote: »

Arlene's thoughts on the DUP! They are going too hardline for her!



At a time when Northern Ireland really needed s figure to come out and make a positive case for NI, it's more 'no, no, no', negativity, and blsming others for their mess. The DUP really can't help themselves.

There seems to be a real split in the party. The nasty Brexity / UKIP types like Paisley Jr and Sammy Wilson support Poots, but the more moderate people like Foster and Donaldson want absolutely nothing to do with him or his followers.

One wonders if the party might even break up soon.

yagan

Strazdas wrote: »

One wonders if the party might even break up soon.

Very unlikely as it's the political extension of Paisley Snr's Free Presbyterian Church. As long as they've believers they'll have voters.

The UUP defectors were just passing through.

Igotadose

The DUP fracas is just a distraction anyway. UK falls further and further behind due to Brexit, witness the recent drop in trade, trade deals if any are insignificant, and the rats (Cummings) are turning on each other. But, lets all look at NI and watch them bicker.

It's really pitiful how badly the UK is doing with no prospects of improvement. Wait till travel really opens up and the holidayers are all subject to queues and checks that they never voted for. Maybe then the Brexit reality will sink in.

Strazdas

yagan wrote: »

Very unlikely as it's the political extension of Paisley Snr's Free Presbyterian Church. As long as they've believers they'll have voters.

The UUP defectors were just passing through.

But what is unusual is there has never been a split to this degree. The Poots section who narrowly won are deeply disliked by the other side. It doesn't help either that all the hotheads and reactionaries have gravitated towards him.

roosterman71

Regarding the supposed travel issues. This week 3 English clubs are playing finals in the EU. I haven't seen any issues or whinging about the few fans that travelled having problems getting out of the UK. Did hear of them fighting in both host cities alright.

KildareP

roosterman71 wrote: »

Regarding the supposed travel issues. This week 3 English clubs are playing finals in the EU. I haven't seen any issues or whinging about the few fans that travelled having problems getting out of the UK. Did hear of them fighting in both host cities alright.

It's effectively the same reason there were no road traffic jams for the best part of the last 15 months. Air travel is still in the low single digit percentage of what it should be. No queues as a result.

yagan

Strazdas wrote: »

But what is unusual is there has never been a split to this degree. The Poots section who narrowly won are deeply disliked by the other side. It doesn't help either that all the hotheads and reactionaries have gravitated towards him.

Poots is probably closest to the DUP church grassroots and was considered big Ian's right hand man both politically and in religion.

The other side were refugees from the UUP who couldn't accept the democratic path to ending partition laid out in the Belfast Agreement.

Ironically if similar splits were to happen between moderate and ultra Brexiters in Westminster which brought GB back in alignment with the EU like NI is then the whole NI question may lose its urgency.

However that's extremely unlikely at present.

Strazdas

yagan wrote: »

Poots is probably closest to the DUP church grassroots and was considered big Ian's right hand man both politically and in religion.

The other side were refugees from the UUP who couldn't accept the democratic path to ending partition laid out in the Belfast Agreement.

Ironically if similar splits were to happen between moderate and ultra Brexiters in Westminster which brought GB back in alignment with the EU like NI is then the whole NI question may lose its urgency.

However that's extremely unlikely at present.

Yes, but what has happened is that the former anti-GFA people are now the more moderate ones. It's Poots and his followers who have moved to the extremes and are describing the Irish Govt as an "enemy" etc.

J Mysterio

yagan wrote: »

Very unlikely as it's the political extension of Paisley Snr's Free Presbyterian Church. As long as they've believers they'll have voters.

The UUP defectors were just passing through.

It really is like a cult. Amazing to think Paisley had the audacity to found his own bloody church, his own sect. And this for a people who slavishly adhere to tradition and dogma in so many other aspects of their lives. Strange people.

yagan

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes, but what has happened is that the former anti-GFA people are now the more moderate ones. It's Poots and his followers who have moved to the extremes and are describing the Irish Govt as an "enemy" etc.

Well everyone outside big Ian's Free Presbyterian Church are heretics, including other presbyterian congregations who don't hate gays.

I think the DUP became a force politically because big Ian was overtly sectarian and for those who saw the GFA as a surrender gathered around his rostrum, even if they didn't share his calvinism.

We shouldn't be complacent about their religious zeal either, as it chimes with radical sects in the USA who become more emboldened and united under Trump.

CelticRambler

Another Brexit dividend: "This new national flagship will be the first vessel of its kind in the world, reflecting the UK's burgeoning status as a great, independent maritime trading nation," Prime Minister Boris Johnson said.

It's a boat ... what's "first of it's kind" about it, other than being a £200m white elephant/black financial hole, whose primary purpose seems to be to sail around the world in an attempt to restore Britain's international reputation after the Tories trashed it?