Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

pixelburp

Seems fitting for brexit that they think a fancy boat is what the natives abroad will be impressed by. I mean, I know we joke about brexit being some throwback to dreams of empire but ... a boat? Does Johnson et al fantasise about being Commodore Perry, sails into far-flung harbours and open trade "negotiations" with their shiny cannons?

Igotadose

pixelburp wrote: »

Seems fitting for brexit that they think a fancy boat is what the natives abroad will be impressed by. I mean, I know we joke about brexit being some throwback to dreams of empire but ... a boat? Does Johnson et al fantasise about being Commodore Perry, sails into far-flung harbours and open trade "negotiations" with their shiny cannons?

Interesting that the price won't be confirmed till the contracts are tendered. I wonder what Tory donor's shipyard is building the boat? Oh, and how once it launches it gets swamped in a storm due to bad engineering, has engine breakdowns, food poisoning epidemics aboard ship, ... That'd be the appropriate image for today's UK.

Enzokk

Here is a story that nobody on here would have doubted,

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1398918288168697858?s=20

Sam McBride: A broken Whitehall which knew more about China than about NI


Some interesting parts,

Philip Hammond, who by then had been in the cabinet for six years and who would soon be appointed chancellor, admitted that more than a year after the referendum the scale of the Northern Ireland problem had still not been appreciated by Mrs May or anyone else at the top of government.

The moment she realised what was at stake was “like a light bulb going on”, Hammond said, and from then on she believed that “the problems over Northern Ireland would inevitably lead to the break-up of the United Kingdom if we were not able to secure an arrangement with the European Union that allowed us, effectively, to able to access the Single Market”.

Sir Jonathan said: “The focus on Northern Ireland came far too late, despite warnings from me and others way back that people should start thinking very carefully about what would happen in Northern Ireland, particularly if different parts of the UK voted differently. I wouldn’t say we’d thought all that through fully.”

This tallies with the sudden change to the all UK backstop basically. May understood what the situation was and what needed to happen to keep the UK together.

However, ultimately it was Mrs Foster who backed the wrong horse. Mr Ruparel said that “those of us who were involved in it know the ERG commitment to the DUP was always pretty hollow.

“I remember having a meeting with the DUP during the leadership contest, we were talking to them and said it basically came to, ‘You know Boris is going to sell you out,’ if it means a more distant relationship for the rest of the UK.

“They said, ‘Yes, we know but we’ll take it as it comes.’ They knew who they were getting into bed with as well. It’s all a bit bizarre. I think they thought they could exert the kind of pressure they did, over Boris, over Theresa.

“I think they thought the ERG were their proper friends. In the end, their biggest miscalculation was their confidence that their position would be vindicated at an election and they would maintain the power-broking position they had.”

If this is true, it really shows how bad the leadership of the DUP is. They knew what was happening, but still thought they would be power brokers and in the end is blaming everyone but themselves for their current predicament. The sooner they are relegated to a minor party that only has the fringe and extreme views of unionism, the better it will be for NI.

CelticRambler

Enzokk wrote: »

If this is true, it really shows how bad the leadership of the DUP is. They knew what was happening, but still thought they would be power brokers and in the end is blaming everyone but themselves for their current predicament. The sooner they are relegated to a minor party that only has the fringe and extreme views of unionism, the better it will be for NI.

Well, yes. But that still doesn't solve the problem of the British not being competent enough to set up and run the processes that make (will make, should make) the NI Protocol work, nor to stop them being deliberately confrontational about it.

To an extent, it looks to me as if there are light bulbs coming on in the Johnson administration and it's beginning to dawn on them just how little the EU needs GB. No non-regression of SPS standards? Fine, all your agri-products are banned. No mutual recognition of artists' visas? Fine, all your artists need to jump through our hoops. No reciprocity on Covid passports? Fine, quarantine rules apply to everyone coming from your island.

The only point on which they can provoke the EU now, and to which the EU is obliged to reply in some kind of conciliatory way, is the NIP. I think the pandemic will probably grant both sides another half a year in which problems don't really have to be addressed with any seriousness, but once the UK starts ramping up their dodgy imports from other third countries, especially foodstuffs, then screws will have to be tightened.

I would hope that the Irish EU delegation and the diplomatic service are already working on this, but the government's performance under Martin's leadership has doesn't inspire much confidence.

Leroy42

The DUP clearly felt they would hold the balance of power. They had enjoyed that position since the last election and very few saw the whopping majority that Johnson got coming.

It also effectively neutered the ERG, certainly vastly reducing their power, and faced with a choice between party and DUP they were always going to go with their party.

So one can understand the path the DUP took. It was a massive gamble, one they lost.

As for the UK not knowing the issues NI was going to raise. They had been warned, but clearly ignored it. But then I think they really didn't have a clue, still don't, about just how difficult and complex and costly Brexit would be.

Throughout the process they seem continually surprised by the latest 'new rule' or 'more barriers placed to punish the UK'.

So I don't think its just NI. They literally had no idea of what they were getting into. They firmly believed their own hype that Global Britain would simply stride across the global picking and choosing what they wanted.

Strazdas

Enzokk wrote: »

Here is a story that nobody on here would have doubted,

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1398918288168697858?s=20

Sam McBride: A broken Whitehall which knew more about China than about NI


Some interesting parts,



This tallies with the sudden change to the all UK backstop basically. May understood what the situation was and what needed to happen to keep the UK together.



If this is true, it really shows how bad the leadership of the DUP is. They knew what was happening, but still thought they would be power brokers and in the end is blaming everyone but themselves for their current predicament. The sooner they are relegated to a minor party that only has the fringe and extreme views of unionism, the better it will be for NI.

I was reading an interview with Arlene Foster in the FT yesterday with one of their chief feature writers, where he met her in NI and brought her out to dinner at a restaurant. Says he found her a bit odd and hard work. Yes, more moderate than some of the nutcases in the DUP, but constantly deflecting away from mistakes she and the DUP had made and still claiming that Brexit was a great idea and the party had been right to support it.

maestroamado

Strazdas wrote: »

I was reading an interview with Arlene Foster in the FT yesterday with one of their chief feature writers, where he met her in NI and brought her out to dinner at a restaurant. Says he found her a bit odd and hard work. Yes, more moderate than some of the nutcases in the DUP, but constantly deflecting away from mistakes she and the DUP had made and still claiming that Brexit was a great idea and the party had been right to support it.

She could hardly she thought Brexit a bad thing as she be shooting herself in the foot as DUP want to maintain the union.
I think the game up for the whole political blame game in NI.
They will all just have to grow up....

54and56

Enzokk wrote: »

Here is a story that nobody on here would have doubted,

https://twitter.com/SJAMcBride/status/1398918288168697858?s=20

Sam McBride: A broken Whitehall which knew more about China than about NI


Some interesting parts,



This tallies with the sudden change to the all UK backstop basically. May understood what the situation was and what needed to happen to keep the UK together.



If this is true, it really shows how bad the leadership of the DUP is. They knew what was happening, but still thought they would be power brokers and in the end is blaming everyone but themselves for their current predicament. The sooner they are relegated to a minor party that only has the fringe and extreme views of unionism, the better it will be for NI.

Forgive the pun but Poots is a dinosaur who brings nothing new to the debate and only appeals to the hard core religious members of the DUP. He will have a platform until the next elections in May assuming he survives that long and will continue to bang the old Paisley mantra of "Never Never Never" etc but the cohort of NI voters who that appeals to has shrunk massively.

The new leader of the UUP Doug Beattie is a far more credible and articulate character who is progressive and not focused on the past. He's a passionate Unionist and will argue his corner very effectively but in a positive manner which is likely to broaden the UUP's appeal and attract disaffected DUP members / voters.

Poots was embarrassing on Marr this morning. Trotting out the lie that the EU triggered A16 and repeating that the protocol has to go but not offering any workable alternative that hasn't already been examined and dismissed by both the EU and UK govt. His honeymoon period, if you could even call it that, will be very short. He'll get a lot of coverage as the mouthpiece for the Orange Order / Loyalist marches and resulting rioting and point a lot of fingers saying "I told you so" but everyone can see he's hand in glove with the Loyalist Community Council and encouraging them to flare up so he can then augment his platform.

BoJo sold the Unionists out once and despite Frost appearing to be a new cheerleader for ditching the NIP (which he himself negotiated) BoJo will bank a "win" when the technical discussions conclude and claim to have beaten the EU into granting easements which enable the NIP to work more smoothly, something the EU would always want to facilitate wherever possible anyway regardless of all the amateur dramatics.

ancapailldorcha

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Again the point is totally missed. The EU handed the disingenuous British govt this stick with which to beat us.

It wasn't Dublin, it wasn't London, it was Brussels.

I don't get why the UK keeps being brought up at all. It was the EU that was going to act to impose a border for medicines on this island literally with no warning. Not even a phone call or text message to Dublin.

Bringing up the British govt all the time is a diversion from the fact it was the EU is this case. They are to blame for that mess up.

There's no need for you to keep bringing this up again and again. Let's leave it at this please.

Kermit.de.frog

SNIP. See above mod warning.

dogbert27

Welcome to being an non-EU citizen!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9636929/NON-Britons-blocked-St-Pancras-travelling-France-Eurostar.html

Lumen

dogbert27 wrote: »

Welcome to being an non-EU citizen!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9636929/NON-Britons-blocked-St-Pancras-travelling-France-Eurostar.html

The reporting on that issue is so sloppy. It's nothing to do with citizenship, is to do with having been in the UK. A German would have the same issue if coming from the UK, and a British citizen traveling to France from the "European space", including Ireland, would not.

dogbert27

Lumen wrote: »

The reporting on that issue is so sloppy. It's nothing to do with citizenship, is to do with having been in the UK. A German would have the same issue if coming from the UK, and a British citizen traveling to France from the "European space", including Ireland, would not.

In the article it said that a German was allowed through as they were an EU citizen.

The restrictions in place came due to Covid not specifically Brexit but French and EU citizens can travel.

dogbert27

New tactic with Canada:

Please, please import our cheese!

Boris going on Canadian tv asking Canadian government to import more cheese!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9636453/Boris-Johnson-pleads-Canada-import-affordable-high-quality-British-cheese.html

Lumen

dogbert27 wrote: »

In the article it said that a German was allowed through as they were an EU citizen.

The restrictions in place came due to Covid not specifically Brexit but French and EU citizens can travel.

It's the daily mail.

This is a semi official source:

https://www.welcometofrance.com/en/covid-19-entry-and-stay-of-foreign-talents-in-france

And another

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/coronavirus-advice-for-foreign-nationals-in-france/

dogbert27

Lumen wrote: »

It's the daily mail.

This is a semi official source:

https://www.welcometofrance.com/en/covid-19-entry-and-stay-of-foreign-talents-in-france

And another

https://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/en/coming-to-france/coronavirus-advice-for-foreign-nationals-in-france/

Yep which states:


As of May 31, 2021, travelers coming from the United Kingdom must comply with new border restrictions in order to travel to France. As of this date, they must justify a compelling reason to travel.

Lumen

dogbert27 wrote: »

Yep which states:

As of May 31, 2021, travelers coming from the United Kingdom must comply with new border restrictions in order to travel to France. As of this date, they must justify a compelling reason to travel.

So as I wrote, it's nothing to do with citizenship, with the exception of French citizens.

mick087

dogbert27 wrote: »

Yep which states:

As of May 31, 2021, travelers coming from the United Kingdom must comply with new border restrictions in order to travel to France. As of this date, they must justify a compelling reason to travel.

If that variant becomes a issue in the UK then you can bet that its here in Ireland already. That variant will become an issue through out Europe.

I think the French are correct to have these restriction they must at least try to stop the spread. But id say its already in Europe and to late. The UK do seem to find these variants quick, maybe they have a better testing system on variants im not sure.

But i advise that the daily mail is a very restricting read, don't believe that paper IMO its not one of the better UK papers.

Padre_Pio

dogbert27 wrote: »

New tactic with Canada:

Please, please import our cheese!

Boris going on Canadian tv asking Canadian government to import more cheese!

Blessed are the cheesemakers.

The comment section on traditionally Brexit tabloids has really shifted since January.
The last Brexiter victory was the vote in 2016. The vaccine trump card is exhausted since the EU has gotten vunerable vaccinated.

Interesting times for the Torys ahead, but they seriously need a win.

Lumen

Padre_Pio wrote: »

Blessed are the cheesemakers.

The comment section on traditionally Brexit tabloids has really shifted since January.
The last Brexiter victory was the vote in 2016. The vaccine trump card is exhausted since the EU has gotten vunerable vaccinated.

Interesting times for the Torys ahead, but they seriously need a win.

The Tories are currently invincible. FPTP+fragmented opposition worsened by devolution=permanent majority.

Labour hard core hates the Lib Dems with a passion far greater than their desire to be in power. They need a charismatic, uniting, transformative leader like Blair was before that project got blood and sand in the gears, but even that might not be enough given boundary changes and Scotland.

England has always been a Tory territory.

looksee

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9rlgsZIYcw

The EU has come up with yet another ploy for reeling the UK back into the EU...

I genuinely thought this was a spoof; it is an absolute caricature of the Brexit Englishman. I even wondered whether it was some sort of CGI it seems so stilted. But it is not a spoof (though it might be some sort of artificial creation), it is the usual twisting of events to suit the Brexit narrative. But what really gets to me is the comments, I expected to see some mockery but no, only one post that I saw even hinted that maybe Brexit was not a triumph that just needed a bit more time to show how worthwhile it all was.

The mindset of the Brexiteers and the Trumpists is so uncannily similar it is frightening, and (to a migrated Brit) depressing.

pixelburp

God help me, I just read the comments of the above; it's like a safe space for those who think The Telegraph might be a little too nuanced. Going to have to go into my YT history, clear that out so the algorithm doesn't suddenly suggest a pile of Brexit "think pieces".

Let's not forget though, Reese-Mogg (now there's a name that has scuttled into the shadows) long ago once remarked that Brexit's benefits wouldn't be seen or appreciated for at least 50 years. There's a resigned element here that firmly believe Brexit is a long-term project, its success being a gift to future generations. You can't reach across the aisle to those who think any demonstrative negatives are merely speed bumps. It turns the narrative into martyrdom.

Igotadose

pixelburp wrote: »

God help me, I just read the comments of the above; it's like a safe space for those who think The Telegraph might be a little too nuanced. Going to have to go into my YT history, clear that out so the algorithm doesn't suddenly suggest a pile of Brexit "think pieces".

Let's not forget though, Reese-Mogg (now there's a name that has scuttled into the shadows) long ago once remarked that Brexit's benefits wouldn't be seen or appreciated for at least 50 years. There's a resigned element here that firmly believe Brexit is a long-term project, its success being a gift to future generations. You can't reach across the aisle to those who think any demonstrative negatives are merely speed bumps. It turns the narrative into martyrdom.

Within the comments there was this snarky rejoinder:

"Bold statement.
"I Think..."

Prove it!"
...

The comments are... well, not revelatory. The UK media's got their population well under control

ancapailldorcha

pixelburp wrote: »

God help me, I just read the comments of the above; it's like a safe space for those who think The Telegraph might be a little too nuanced. Going to have to go into my YT history, clear that out so the algorithm doesn't suddenly suggest a pile of Brexit "think pieces".

Let's not forget though, Reese-Mogg (now there's a name that has scuttled into the shadows) long ago once remarked that Brexit's benefits wouldn't be seen or appreciated for at least 50 years. There's a resigned element here that firmly believe Brexit is a long-term project, its success being a gift to future generations. You can't reach across the aisle to those who think any demonstrative negatives are merely speed bumps. It turns the narrative into martyrdom.

I'm going to disagree. If anyone voted for Brexit thinking that there'd be benefits, there'd have been outrage from more than just the usual types about Rees-Mogg's comments. The pretence that Brexit would bring material benefits to anyone who wasn't a speculator of some kind was all but abandoned post-referendum. Any vestiges of this fantasy are all gone now.

Nobody thinks there's a long term project. There are the immediately pressing issues which face this country which are kicked down the road where possible or addressed as expediently as possible with nice kickbacks for friends of the Conservative party where feasible.

I think Brexit is driven primarily by cultural factors, especially an outdated and outmoded Imperialistic attitude evinced by the whining when the successful crusade against free movement results in some sort of impediments to free movement for people who own holiday homes in Spain. Apparently, rules are for continental Europeans and the Irish, not for the British, or should I say English.

For example, The London Economic is reporting that Spain may require Police letters for British people visiting Spain. The article has chosen a cherrypicked response:

User Wren4Jen, who has a Brexit Party profile picture, said: “We are supposed to be going to stay with our daughter in September after waiting two years to get over there and we are now rethinking whether it is worth the trouble!

“She has to apply to Malaga, over one hour away, and has to take copies of our passports which of course we have and then she has to go back for the letter and then send the letter to us to produce at the border when entering.”

The user then said that 86 euros for two people visiting is going to make most people not want to visit – and complained about needing Covid tests before and after their UK arrival, even though this is a requirement from the UK part, not Spain, costing hundreds of pounds.

“Spain are really shewting themselves in the foot and making it as difficult as possible for tourists to visit. They just won’t bother with so many other places to visit and who can blame them! Their economy is going to go through the floor, serves them right,” Wren4Jen.

Link here.

Seth Brundle

looksee wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9rlgsZIYcw



I genuinely thought this was a spoof; it is an absolute caricature of the Brexit Englishman. I even wondered whether it was some sort of CGI it seems so stilted. But it is not a spoof (though it might be some sort of artificial creation), it is the usual twisting of events to suit the Brexit narrative. But what really gets to me is the comments, I expected to see some mockery but no, only one post that I saw even hinted that maybe Brexit was not a triumph that just needed a bit more time to show how worthwhile it all was.

The mindset of the Brexiteers and the Trumpists is so uncannily similar it is frightening, and (to a migrated Brit) depressing.

I'm not sure who he is but looking at his other videos, he takes an issue and moulds it to suit his anti-EU agenda.
In terms of this video on the "pro-tow-col", he moans about how the EU wants the UK to be a rule taker but conveniently ignores the fact that the EU wants the UK to meet minimum standards. If this is an issue for the UK, maybe he would do his viewers a service by explaining exactly why. It can only be because the UK wants to introduce lower standards.
Now maybe he is not ignoring the facts and is simply not smart enough to get the facts - it doesn't really matter.
His audience are his echo-chamber. They too ignore the facts or are too dumb to get them.
At this point, their views are far too entrenched to change. They've gone down a rabbithole and got stuck. It will be a long time before their paranoid & ignorant nationalistic views change and the damage they inflict on their country in the interim will be massive.

Sam Russell

looksee wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9rlgsZIYcw



I genuinely thought this was a spoof; it is an absolute caricature of the Brexit Englishman. I even wondered whether it was some sort of CGI it seems so stilted. But it is not a spoof (though it might be some sort of artificial creation), it is the usual twisting of events to suit the Brexit narrative. But what really gets to me is the comments, I expected to see some mockery but no, only one post that I saw even hinted that maybe Brexit was not a triumph that just needed a bit more time to show how worthwhile it all was.

The mindset of the Brexiteers and the Trumpists is so uncannily similar it is frightening, and (to a migrated Brit) depressing.

I was listening to his accent and form of delivery.
His "pro - toe - koll" diction is a learnt pronunciation which sounds like a low level course of electrocution - sorry elocution, where he is trying to make his accent sound more 'posh' than it actually is natively. You find the same with Francois and Bridgen. He also come across as someone who has spent time in the British Army, rising to the level of sergeant or perhaps sergeant major.

He has been schooled to look continuously at the camera, and speak slowly and deliberately, in a most unnatural way. Spoof or not, he is very good at looking like a caricature of a carry-on film sergeant major, or perhaps a Dad's Army minor army officer.

He is beyond parody.

ZeroThreat

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was listening to his accent and form of delivery.
His "pro - toe - koll" diction is a learnt pronunciation which sounds like a low level course of electrocution - sorry elocution, where he is trying to make his accent sound more 'posh' than it actually is natively. You find the same with Francois and Bridgen. He also come across as someone who has spent time in the British Army, rising to the level of sergeant or perhaps sergeant major.

He has been schooled to look continuously at the camera, and speak slowly and deliberately, in a most unnatural way. Spoof or not, he is very good at looking like a caricature of a carry-on film sergeant major, or perhaps a Dad's Army minor army officer.

He is beyond parody.

He reminds me of a Sontaran from the Doctor Who fictional universe

Padre_Pio

Igotadose wrote: »

Within the comments there was this snarky rejoinder:

"Bold statement.
"I Think..."

Prove it!"
...

The comments are... well, not revelatory. The UK media's got their population well under control

Wouldn't worry too much about them, the comments on that channel haven't changed since 2016. SNIP.

Strazdas

looksee wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9rlgsZIYcw



I genuinely thought this was a spoof; it is an absolute caricature of the Brexit Englishman. I even wondered whether it was some sort of CGI it seems so stilted. But it is not a spoof (though it might be some sort of artificial creation), it is the usual twisting of events to suit the Brexit narrative. But what really gets to me is the comments, I expected to see some mockery but no, only one post that I saw even hinted that maybe Brexit was not a triumph that just needed a bit more time to show how worthwhile it all was.

The mindset of the Brexiteers and the Trumpists is so uncannily similar it is frightening, and (to a migrated Brit) depressing.

A more interesting aspect for me is that Brexitism / English nationalism (formerly known as 'Eurocepticism') needs the EU as an enemy and a scapegoat. The Brexiteers spend far more time discussing the EU than most people in the EU.

Capt'n Midnight

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

If anything this shows how important checks on food/animals are in Irish Sea, Brits obviously don’t care about 130000 dead countrymen according to “let the bones pile up” Boris, they definitely won’t care about maintaining food safety standards and animal viruses as worst case it lead to further destruction of agricultural sectors while “frack business” Boris redecorates his apartment

Does Boris have any values ?
https://www.rte.ie/news/analysis-and-comment/2021/0526/1223986-cummings-hearing-analysis/

People who attended the 2019 Pendulum Summit in the Convention Centre Dublin will be familiar with Boris Johnson's yarn about the movie "Jaws".

At the motivational speakers event, the future prime minister asked the audience: "Who was the real hero of Jaws?".

After fielding several mock answers, Mr Johnson unveiled the correct answer - not the Sheriff, not the shark - but the Mayor. Why? Because he kept the beaches open, and kept businesses in business.

From 2011 with the same anecdote
"I don't know what happened to his political career thereafter, but he did the right thing."