Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Kermit.de.frog

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

Professor Moriarty

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

What is you opinion of Farage and Johnson? What is your opinion of the Tory party today? What is your opinion of the Brexit party and UKIP?

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

A strange way of phrasing things. Germany and France are not sovereign and independent I take it and are being ordered around by someone? Who?

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

You're telling us that a small minority of leavers are Brexiteers. Similarly, do only a small minority of pro-EU people have this horrible opinion?

Padre_Pio

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

Is there any study, or source that shows this?

PeadarCo

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

Surely at this stage we don't have to go over the sovereignty rubbish and explain the basics of the EU. The EU never impacted the UKs sovereignty. If the UK wasn't sovereign Brexit couldn't have happened. Look at Scottish independence from the UK. That's a situation where a nation isn't sovereign. Scotland only become independent legally if the UK government allows it. It's basic stuff when it comes to this discussion.

Brexit is a bad idea. It's so bad even Brexiters acknowledge it. Look at the UK government reaction. The ink was barely dry before the very people had negotiated it came out trying to change it. The Northern Irish protocol being a very notable example. Unless you are saying the very proponents of Brexit are suddenly pro EU. And that's before you look at mounting economic evidence.

If saying Brexit is a bad, stupid idea etc then the British government is Brit bashing. You can criticise a government without bashing a country. By that measure every thread on boards about the Irish government is Irish bashing.

fash

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

That's grade A b*llsh*t. I don't care what Greenland does or does not do or Switzerland or Ukraine. I do however resent the UK's aggressive bellicose self pitying whining while they issue threat after threat and targeted attacks on Ireland and the EU. If you want to leave, leave. But take responsibility and know that if you start war you better be ready to finish it.

Akrasia

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

The UK was a fully Sovereign ’nation’ while inside the EU, just a nation with obligations under international treaties she signed up to, after Brexit the UK is just as Sovereign and will be just as obligated by whatever terms it can negotiate in new international treaties going forward, almost certainly poorer terms than they had under the EU with fewer freedoms for UK citizens and traders

timetogo1

I don't think the Telegraph recognises irony. It's behind a paywall but the headline is enough.

Tim Martin looking for visas for EU workers to work in his bars.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/01/wetherspoons-boss-calls-eu-migration-tackle-bar-staff-shortage/

dublin49

IMO posters calling for brexiteers to own their own folly is a waste of time.Its not a bad strategy from a UK POV to totally muddy the waters of the aggreement.Misinterpret the details,accuse the EU of bad faith ,etc,etc ,they are hardly going to stand idly by and let the sheer ridiculous nature of Brexit become apparent.

Strazdas

dublin49 wrote: »

IMO posters calling for brexiteers to own their own folly is a waste of time.Its not a bad strategy from a UK POV to totally muddy the waters of the aggreement.Misinterpret the details,accuse the EU of bad faith ,etc,etc ,they are hardly going to stand idly by and let the sheer ridiculous nature of Brexit become apparent.

I mentioned further up that Brexitism needs the EU to be a scapegoat and an enemy. It defines itself by its hatred of the EU and Europe. English Brexiteers being friendly with the EU would be something of a paradox or a contradiction - it needs them as an enemy.

fash

Strazdas wrote: »

I mentioned further up that Brexitism needs the EU to be a scapegoat and an enemy. It defines itself by its hatred of the EU and Europe. English Brexiteers being friendly with the EU would be something of a paradox or a contradiction - it needs them as an enemy.

The "Ulsterisation of British politics" - the creating of an "under siege" identity.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

'Brexiteers' are a small minority of independence voters.

The way some go on you'd think these people like Rees Mogg were representative of a big group of people.

They aren't.

The UK voted to be a sovereign country again and most of those who voted for independence are just ordinary people. What irritates and worries the pro EU wing (more so in places outside the UK) is that deep down they know the country will be absolutely fine and do very well outside the EU as much as they wish ill on them for daring to leave.

It's a horrible attitude to have in my opinion.

Not nearly as horrible as the attitude that characterises a vote to leave the EU as a vote for "independence" and a vote "to be a sovereign country again".

Ireland has been a dependent part of the UK, and also an independent sovereign state within the EU. We know the difference. Brexit supporters do their cause no favours by demonstrating that they don't. They reinforce the perception that Brexit support rests, fundamentally, on a foundation of ignorance and delusion. This is probably not the impression they are hoping to create.

Strazdas

Peregrinus wrote: »

Not nearly as horrible as the attitude that characterises a vote to leave the EU as a vote for "independence" and a vote "to be a sovereign country again".

Ireland has been a dependent part of the UK, and also an independent sovereign state within the EU. We know the difference. Brexit supporters do their cause no favours by demonstrating that they can't tell the difference. They reinforce the perception that Brexit support rests, fundamentally, on a foundation of ignorance and delusion. This is probably not the impression they are hoping to create.

I don't buy the 'independence' argument at all in relation to Brexit. Most newly independent states define themselves by their independence and nationhood, not by their hatred of the entity they have just left. If Brexiteers are deliriously happy to be 'free', why are they talking about the EU all the time? They spend far more time discussing the EU and its faults than 99.9% of people who actually live in the EU.

pixelburp

Brexiteers increasingly cut the figure of THAT office bore; the divorcee who, despite cutting ties ages ago, still can't resist any opportunity to pin all the ills of the world on their ex. Becoming obsessed with the ex's every move and decision, sledging them for having the gal to move on.

peter kern

timetogo1 wrote: »

I don't think the Telegraph recognises irony. It's behind a paywall but the headline is enough.

Tim Martin looking for visas for EU workers to work in his bars.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2021/06/01/wetherspoons-boss-calls-eu-migration-tackle-bar-staff-shortage/

https://www.cityam.com/arch-brexiter-wetherspoons-boss-tim-martin-pushes-for-work-visa-for-eu-pint-pullers/

no paywall
i wonder can staff command higher wages at his pubs? that would be a brexit benefit i guess ...

Nody

peter kern wrote: »

i wonder can staff command higher wages at his pubs? that would be a brexit benefit i guess ...

I'd guess it's trying the other way; by having people getting in on a visa for a job at their pub they are less likely to move on and can be paid less basically; was that not one of the listed Brexit benefits after all?

ArmaniJeanss

Nody wrote: »

I'd guess it's trying the other way; by having people getting in on a visa for a job at their pub they are less likely to move on and can be paid less basically; was that not one of the listed Brexit benefits after all?

It's a huge conceit on the part of the UK to think that EU people are so desperate to go there that such a system would be acceptable.

Even if you weren't tied to one job, the idea of a 'short-term working-visa' as being an acceptable alternative for FOM falls down so easily.

Go to the hassle of applying (possible € cost, or at the very least a time-consuming exercise) with no guarantee of being accepted.
Why go somewhere where there's no guarantee that Mammy & Daddy and friends will be able to freely come over and visit for a week?
Young people tend to travel in groups or couples - whole trip is in jeopardy if some of the group have their application rejected.
The whole 'start as a waitress, end up as the manager' dream is no longer possible if a visa is time-limited.
For older people, no likelihood of non-working partner and kids being able to join them.

Peregrinus

To be fair, as reported in the non-paywalled version, Martin isn't calling for a visa scheme under which EU workers would be tied to particular jobs. He just wants the UK to "make it easier for lower-skilled EU workers to relocate here". So far as his company's needs are concerned, he might be quite satisfied with a scheme which, say, allowed EU citizens under 25 to get a one-year or two-year UK visa entitling them to take any job offered to them,, like the Australian working holiday visa scheme.

Would this be "an acceptable alternative to FoM"? Well, acceptable to who? It would probably be acceptable to Martin. But it would be very different from actual FoM; all visa-based schemes are. The whole point of FoM is that it does away with any need for any visas at all. A proposal to issue more visas, or new classes of visas, or whatever is nothing like FoM.

Leroy42

But FoM is what they didn't like. They see it as a lack of control. It doesn't actually matter how many visas are given out, it is the fact that THEY decide it, not the "faceless bureaucrats in Brussels".

And this is where the reality of Brexit on the average person will start to become clear. IT won't mean more jobs, or better pay, or more housing or schools. Jimmy in Newcastle is not going to see any increase in job offers, or increase in wages.

And it might sound great that immigrants can only stay for a year or two, but that of course leads to a lack of integration. Why bother learning the language, adapting to the culture, getting UK friends, when you are only there for a short time?

So the feeling that the immigrants were not integrating is going to get even worse.

Peregrinus

Yeah. What this points to is one of the (many) contradiction inherent in Brexit. Probably many people voted for it because they believed that in some way FoM was depressing wages and/or employment opportunities for British citizens. They hoped that Brexiting would reduce labour supply and so lead to higher wages. But whatever reason Martin supported Brexit for, it clearly wasn't that; he wants Brexit conducted in such a way that it won't lead to higher wages. If Martin has his way, then people who supported Brexit in the expectation of improved wage rates will feel disappointed. And if they consider that they were encouraged to support it on that basis, they will feel cheated.

ArmaniJeanss

Peregrinus wrote: »

To be fair, as reported in the non-paywalled version, Martin isn't calling for a visa scheme under which EU workers would be tied to particular jobs. He just wants the UK to "make it easier for lower-skilled EU workers to relocate here". So far as his company's needs are concerned, he might be quite satisfied with a scheme which, say, allowed EU citizens under 25 to get a one-year or two-year UK visa entitling them to take any job offered to them,, like the Australian working holiday visa scheme.

Yeah, in fairness the 'visa tied to job' concept isn't in the article, it was mentioned by Nody. So I was replying to that.
I still think it's very presumptuous of them to think that a system which suits Australia or the USA (countries which have other attractions) would also be suitable for the UK.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Would this be "an acceptable alternative to FoM"? Well, acceptable to who? It would probably be acceptable to Martin. But it would be very different from actual FoM; all visa-based schemes are. The whole point of FoM is that it does away with any need for any visas at all. A proposal to issue more visas, or new classes of visas, or whatever is nothing like FoM.

I definitely get the vibe that the UK consider this kind of visa process as being a good-as-equivalent substitute that solves their staffing problem.
It just hasn't occurred to them that those prospective European immigrants may see it in a completely different light.

Peregrinus

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I definitely get the vibe that the UK consider this kind of visa process as being a good-as-equivalent substitute that solves their staffing problem.
It just hasn't occurred to them that those prospective European immigrants may see it in a completely different light.

Why would they care what prospective European immigrants think?

Martin isn't looking for people who are going to come and make a career in hospitality; he's looking for people who will take casual, minimum-wage work to fund a bit of travel, or while studying, or whatever. And it may well be that a time-limited, visa-based scheme would be taken up by European interested in spending a bit of time in the UK, in much the way that the Australian scheme is taken up by European looking to spend a bit of time in Australia.

A scheme of that kind, while very different to FoM, might be perfectly adequate to achieve what Martin wants. The fact that it's not attractive to anyone interested in more than temporary and casual work in the UK might piss off those people, but it won't bother him.

ArmaniJeanss

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would they care what prospective European immigrants think?

Well a lot depends on if you are in a position of having to attract immigrants, or in the luxury position of having an excess of applicants.
The USA and Australia are in the luxury position, and can largely set their terms.
If at an extreme level say Libya announced 1,000,000 easy-to-get visas for EU citizens today, the take-up would be close to zero.
So therefore surely we can accept that some countries actually do have to "care what prospective European immigrants think".
The question I guess is where is the UK on the scale?

Peregrinus wrote: »

Martin isn't looking for people who are going to come and make a career in hospitality; he's looking for people who will take casual, minimum-wage work to fund a bit of travel, or while studying, or whatever. And it may well be that a time-limited, visa-based scheme would be taken up by European interested in spending a bit of time in the UK, in much the way that the Australian scheme is taken up by European looking to spend a bit of time in Australia.

A scheme of that kind, while very different to FoM, might be perfectly adequate to achieve what Martin wants. The fact that it's not attractive to anyone interested in more than temporary and casual work in the UK might piss off those people, but it won't bother him.

I'm just not sure that that type of immigrant actually exists in large numbers within Europe (specifically Eastern Europe which I think is where Martin see's the potential cheap labour). I'm sure there's some, but the people from that part of Europe I've met don't really fit the backpacker/hostel/work 9 months in a bar and move onwards on your world tour stereotype. By and large the ones I've met see moving as a more permanent put down roots thing.
But I've probably met less than 100 East European people in my life so it'd be a bit foolish of me to extrapolate too much I guess.

We'll see I suppose.

Leroy42

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I'm just not sure that that type of immigrant actually exists in large numbers within Europe (specifically Eastern Europe which I think is where Martin see's the potential cheap labour). I'm sure there's some, but the people from that part of Europe I've met don't really fit the backpacker/hostel/work 9 months in a bar and move onwards on your world tour stereotype. By and large the ones I've met see moving as a more permanent put down roots thing.
But I've probably met less than 100 East European people in my life so it'd be a bit foolish of me to extrapolate too much I guess.

We'll see I suppose.

It goes back to the mindset of the typical Brexiteer. They haven't actually done any studies to see how they are seen in the terms of the type of workers you mention, but the inate sense that the UK is a global player, and that surely anybody anywhere would simply love to move to the UK, even for a short time.

Its a cultural superiority thing, that the rest of the world still looks at the UK with envy. And in many aspects that is true, the UK is a wonderful, 1st world, wealthy, progressive, open country that allows freedoms and happiness etc.

But, it is any different/better than the other European countries, than the US, Australia, NZ, Canada etc?

They don't see themselves in a competition with these other countries for these workers, the workers will always choose the UK because of the Queen, and English, and football and proper tea etc.

Now, for those with no other options then that is perfectly correct. They will want to come to the UK simply to get out of wherever they happen to be. But given a choice of the UK for a year, or EU for ever I'm not sure whether that balance is in the UK's favour.

CelticRambler

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

It's a huge conceit on the part of the UK to think that EU people are so desperate to go there that such a system would be acceptable.

Even if you weren't tied to one job, the idea of a 'short-term working-visa' as being an acceptable alternative for FOM falls down so easily.

It's certainly strange to suggest trying to attract EU migrant workers while stories are going around describing the New-And-Improved-Not-Welcome-To-Britain experience being delivered by the UK's border agents.

And as you say, the option of having family and friends come to visit matters too. Only last week, I made that same point to an organisation hoping to attract new graduates to their workplace in France, and as of Friday evening, it was agreed that they'd provide a two-bedroom (rather than one) flat for the explicit purpose of allowing the new recruit the chance to have guests stay with them.

The T&Cs also specifically exclude any British-only citizens with a UK qualification, which in this case, essentially limits the role to graduates from Ireland. A Brexit dividend of sorts.

ambro25

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

(...)
It just hasn't occurred to them that those prospective European immigrants may see it in a completely different light.

I agree.

In the context of this sub-discussion, the sort of prospective European immigrants we are looking at (young/student types looking for shortish term experiences) will be looking at it that way: post-Brexit, moving to the UK looks substantially the same hassle as doing so to the US, Oz, NZ, and it’s a damn side easier in Ireland...

...so why bother with the procedurally-uncertain and meteorologically-challenged GB?

Strazdas

Interesting that Martin's proposal is being met with derision across the board in the UK. Most people can see that you can't campaign for Brexit on the basis of immigration but then say you want EU migrant workers, without looking like a total clown.

murphaph

Peregrinus wrote: »

Why would they care what prospective European immigrants think?

Martin isn't looking for people who are going to come and make a career in hospitality; he's looking for people who will take casual, minimum-wage work to fund a bit of travel, or while studying, or whatever. And it may well be that a time-limited, visa-based scheme would be taken up by European interested in spending a bit of time in the UK, in much the way that the Australian scheme is taken up by European looking to spend a bit of time in Australia.

A scheme of that kind, while very different to FoM, might be perfectly adequate to achieve what Martin wants. The fact that it's not attractive to anyone interested in more than temporary and casual work in the UK might piss off those people, but it won't bother him.

I'm not so sure it'll be easy to tempt young European students to work in a 'spoons in Hull or an abattoir in wherever. Not even sure the average young European would envisage receiving much of a warm welcome.

Good luck to them. Not our problem.

murphaph

ambro25 wrote: »

I agree.

In the context of this sub-discussion, the sort of prospective European immigrants we are looking at (young/student types looking for shortish term experiences) will be looking at it that way: post-Brexit, moving to the UK looks substantially the same hassle as doing so to the US, Oz, NZ, and it’s a damn side easier in Ireland...

...so why bother with the procedurally-uncertain and meteorologically-challenged GB?

And it's full of xenophobic brexiteers to boot.