Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Professor Moriarty

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Hmm, I wonder was that EU official from France or Ireland. It's so hard to guess...

Obviously a typo. The 's' should have been an 'm'.

cameramonkey

Deleted User wrote: »

Having Ireland in a separate bubble could quite easily become an Irish solution to an Irish problem which insulates the remaining EU26 from any cross border issues while allowing for limited SM dealing with the remaining EU.

Why would Ireland or the EU agree to that?

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Having Ireland in a separate bubble could quite easily become an Irish solution to an Irish problem which insulates the remaining EU26 from any cross border issues while allowing for limited SM dealing with the remaining EU.

Except that it really couldn't. Relegating a union member in good standing because of the actions of a hostile third country is pretty much an admission that said union is completely worthless and ought to be disbanded.

WHL

Deleted User wrote: »

Having Ireland in a separate bubble could quite easily become an Irish solution to an Irish problem which insulates the remaining EU26 from any cross border issues while allowing for limited SM dealing with the remaining EU.

Or an EU source could be equally mischievous and a leak could “suggest” that the U.K. government might look at the possibility of a Celtic Protocol as in this article.
https://janemorrice.com/?p=84

The Raging Bile Duct

Deleted User wrote: »

Having Ireland in a separate bubble could quite easily become an Irish solution to an Irish problem which insulates the remaining EU26 from any cross border issues while allowing for limited SM dealing with the remaining EU.

Why would Ireland ever agree to that. It would be absolute insanity for us to do that.

The Raging Bile Duct

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Why would Ireland ever agree to that. It would be absolute insanity for us to do that.

Small country in a big club, 26 against one, could happen.
Biden may even see this as a preferable solution to prevent the GFA being damaged, who knows.


Stranger things have happened in recent years.

paul71

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Why would Ireland ever agree to that. It would be absolute insanity for us to do that.

In addition why would other smaller states like Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, Czech, Denmark, Finland agree to allowing another small state being treated in such a manner.

ancapailldorcha

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Small country in a big club, 26 against one, could happen.
Biden may even see this as a preferable solution to prevent the GFA being damaged, who knows.


Stranger things have happened in recent years.

Like the Brexiters have been saying for half a decade, "Any day now."

redcup342

WHL wrote: »

What about a more subtle action that could be taken fairly quickly. Something like a £50 charge for a 14-day visa for U.K. passport holders to visit the EU (outside of CTA) with the proviso that it would be dropped as soon as the U.K. meet their commitments. It might put a bit of internal pressure on Boris and co.

It would need to go through Parliament ... you can't just change stuff when you feel like it, the other Member states have to agree to modify schengen and make it law.

The EU can make a recommendation but can't update regulations that quickly, countries like spain would just ignore it (like that have for the COVID recommendations under the EU Traffic light system for people in the UK)

Politically it would be terrible and put us in a rather bad light.

It's amazing the EU has a border with Brazil and has relatively few issues and it has small border with the UK and it's a sh*tstorm.

I can't see Ireland being dumped out of the single market when the ABC Islands, and French Guiana are part of them.

Lemming

Deleted User wrote: »

Small country in a big club, 26 against one, could happen.

"It's about the smalls".

The EU is a club consisting primarily of smaller nations; so cutting out and isolating one for political expediency in dealing with a third-party nation sends a clear message that it can and will be done to any other smaller member nation when it suits. Politically that is suicidal madness for the EU. The optics from the prospect alone would cause fissures in political cohesion between the member states.

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

Small country in a big club, 26 against one, could happen.
Biden may even see this as a preferable solution to prevent the GFA being damaged, who knows.


Stranger things have happened in recent years.

There is absolutely no political appetite for such a move outside of the Westminster and a few Irexit types.
It will not happen - full stop!

Larbre34

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Small country in a big club, 26 against one, could happen.
Biden may even see this as a preferable solution to prevent the GFA being damaged, who knows.


Stranger things have happened in recent years.

You're talking absolute rubbish.

When the suggestion was put to an EU official this morning that a failure by Britain to properly manage its obligations for GB-NI trade, that it might jeopardise Ireland's position as a full member of the SM and CU, his response was and I quote:

"That's a load of s***e."

Joe Biden will do whatever his latest phone call with Mícheál Martin informs him to do, God bless his little green socks.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

Having Ireland in a separate bubble could quite easily become an Irish solution to an Irish problem which insulates the remaining EU26 from any cross border issues while allowing for limited SM dealing with the remaining EU.

A country being outside the "single" market would be a quite disastrous solution. The whole point of the SM - its very raison d'etre- is to have no internal borders or checks.

And how would Ireland be okay with being permanently locked out of the SM?

Strazdas

Strazdas wrote: »

A country being outside the "single" market would be a quite disastrous solution. The whole point of the SM - its very raison d'etre- is to have no internal borders or checks.

Think of it more like a Venn diagram, but with the island of Ireland in the overlap instead of just Northern Ireland

Nody

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Why would Ireland ever agree to that. It would be absolute insanity for us to do that.

Because to some on this thread the idea of having any border at the NI border (which is by definition the requirement) is simply "impossible and can never be implemented under any circumstances". There is simply two options if UK goes rogue; Ireland implements proper border controls like every other EU country or the option above; there is no open NI border and Ireland remains fully in the EU single market option. That requires an Irish government who's not turning their coat to the wind on every issue and actually make unpopular but required decisions and implement them...

ZeroThreat

Nody wrote: »

Because to some on this thread the idea of having any border at the NI border (which is by definition the requirement) is simply "impossible and can never be implemented under any circumstances". There is simply two options if UK goes rogue; Ireland implements proper border controls like every other EU country or the option above; there is no open NI border and Ireland remains fully in the EU single market option. That requires an Irish government who's not turning their coat to the wind on every issue and actually make unpopular but required decisions and implement them...

Exactly, the government here would be severely out of touch if they didn't realise most people in the Republic don't want a de facto 'soft Irexit' in order to appease a few dodgy south Armagh types.

The majority of us down here don't give a fiddlers about the north tbh, only that they keep their craycray confined to the 6 counties this time.

timetogo1

Nody wrote: »

Because to some on this thread the idea of having any border at the NI border (which is by definition the requirement) is simply "impossible and can never be implemented under any circumstances". There is simply two options if UK goes rogue; Ireland implements proper border controls like every other EU country or the option above; there is no open NI border and Ireland remains fully in the EU single market option. That requires an Irish government who's not turning their coat to the wind on every issue and actually make unpopular but required decisions and implement them...

I never understood that.
I don't want a border on Ireland either and am happy for it to be in the Irish Sea (the UK wanted Brexit, they can sort it out) but if all else fails I don't know anybody that has a major issue with customs checks for goods at our border.

Like you say, a border has to go somewhere. I know people will jump up and down and say it breaks the GFA. Well if the UK is acting like a petulant child and wont keep the agreement it signed up to and we want to stay in the SM, what are the other options?

It's like dealing with my toddler when she has a tantrum, I give her all possible options and it's "NO" to everything. That's OK for a toddler not so great for a country.

Kermit.de.frog

Nody wrote: »

Because to some on this thread the idea of having any border at the NI border (which is by definition the requirement) is simply "impossible and can never be implemented under any circumstances". There is simply two options if UK goes rogue; Ireland implements proper border controls like every other EU country or the option above; there is no open NI border and Ireland remains fully in the EU single market option. That requires an Irish government who's not turning their coat to the wind on every issue and actually make unpopular but required decisions and implement them...

We are headed for a serious conflict on this island again if a border goes up across the island.

That will do the economic damage anyway.

We are suppose to be bringing the two parts of the island together and EU membership would be incompatible with a land border and those with legitimate aims of ending partition in my view.

There is only one solution to force compliance - the EU must punish Britain severely through tariffs and sanctions.

They have yet to do so and I would suggest if you are pro EU you better hope they do so soon because so far it has been all waffle while Johnson does what he likes.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Think of it more like a Venn diagram, but with the island of Ireland in the overlap instead of just Northern Ireland

This is a daft and completely unfit-for-purpose analogy. Why, exactly do you think this is apt for the current situation?

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is a daft and completely unfit-for-purpose analogy. Why, exactly do you think this is apt for the current situation?

Simple, trade goes on between the UK & Ireland, trade goes on between Ireland and the remainder of the EU and trade goes on between the UK and the EU26, it also allows for frictionless borders between the three trading blocks.
It will not allow, for example for goods to use Ireland as a conduit between EU & UK.
It is probably a more workable solution than many suggested here.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Simple, trade goes on between the UK & Ireland, trade goes on between Ireland and the remainder of the EU and trade goes on between the UK and the EU26, it also allows for frictionless borders between the three trading blocks.
It will not allow, for example for goods to use Ireland as a conduit between EU & UK.
It is probably a more workable solution than many suggested here.

Except that it's anything but simple. Ireland is a full member of the EU in good standing. The 26 other members have backed Ireland to the hilt and continue to do so. It's going to take a lot more than a Telegraph columnist alleging to have heard a diplomat somewhere say something to convince me that Ireland's access to the single market is in peril.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Think of it more like a Venn diagram, but with the island of Ireland in the overlap instead of just Northern Ireland

That is, for all practical purposes, what the NI Protocol established. But guess what? - the British have decided they don't want to play by the rules they agreed to. So on what basis do you think they would respect any variation on the same theme?

Seth Brundle

Deleted User wrote: »

Simple, trade goes on between the UK & Ireland, trade goes on between Ireland and the remainder of the EU and trade goes on between the UK and the EU26, it also allows for frictionless borders between the three trading blocks.
It will not allow, for example for goods to use Ireland as a conduit between EU & UK.
It is probably a more workable solution than many suggested here.

The Irish people want to remain fully fledged members of the EU and not bringing ourselves closer to the basket case that is the UK.
The simplest solution would be if the UK first implemented its commitments under the TCA and then considered aligning itself to EU veterinary standards instead of wanting to lower its own standards and expecting the EU to follow suit.

Seth Brundle

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The Irish people want to remain fully fledged members of the EU and not bringing ourselves closer to the basket case that is the UK.
The simplest solution would be if the UK first implemented its commitments under the TCA and then considered aligning itself to EU veterinary standards instead of wanting to lower its own standards and expecting the EU to follow suit.

Is there any evidence of the UK lowering standards, or is it just the fact they're outside the club now?

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Simple, trade goes on between the UK & Ireland, trade goes on between Ireland and the remainder of the EU and trade goes on between the UK and the EU26, it also allows for frictionless borders between the three trading blocks.
It will not allow, for example for goods to use Ireland as a conduit between EU & UK.

Post Brexit, trade between the UK and the EU26 is not frictionless. Post Brexit, trade between the UK and RoI is not frictionless. Post Brexit, trade between RoI and EU26 is frictionless.

Starting from that point - the status quo for all Irish and Continental businesses - how does your "venn diagram" solution make things better for Ireland?

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any evidence of the UK lowering standards, or is it just the fact they're outside the club now?

Yes; they have approved a pesticide that's banned in the EU due to killing bees already. There's the Australian deal which by the looks of things will allow lower quality beef (but as the deal is not public yet it can't be verified). There's the fact that EU offered an open ended deal on the standards (i.e. UK signs up to keep EU standards but can cancel the deal on short notice) which would resolve 80% of the controls and UK refused it. And finally there's of course the fact they gave themselves the right to lower standards by ministers and no trade deal scrutiny by parliament. Of the four only the first is obviously confirmed to actual lower standards; the second, third and fourth are more showing the future UK is going for in terms of standards by setting themselves up to lower them without to much public scrutiny.

timetogo1

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any evidence of the UK lowering standards, or is it just the fact they're outside the club now?

Australia has different standards to the EU. Methods for treating animals and they allow hormones that we don't.

*I don't know if the UK deal excludes meat that meet that criteria but it's an argument that British farmers are using in the UK and with the competence shown so far by the UK negotiators I wouldn't be holding my breath.

Edit: Nody beat me to it.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any evidence of the UK lowering standards, or is it just the fact they're outside the club now?

Yes. They have approved pesticides that are banned in the EU.

Kermit.de.frog

CelticRambler wrote: »

Post Brexit, trade between the UK and the EU26 is not frictionless. Post Brexit, trade between the UK and RoI is not frictionless. Post Brexit, trade between RoI and EU26 is frictionless.

Starting from that point - the status quo for all Irish and Continental businesses - how does your "venn diagram" solution make things better for Ireland?

It's being advertised in the north as 'best of both worlds' with the protocol. That's the mantra.

If it is then why not for ourselves?

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any evidence of the UK lowering standards, or is it just the fact they're outside the club now?

Well they have allowed insecticides banned by the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jan/09/pesticide-believed-kill-bees-authorised-use-england-eu-farmers

I think that shows their lack of willingness to keep to EU standards.