Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

timetogo1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's being advertised in the north as 'best of both worlds' with the protocol. That's the mantra.

If it is then why not for ourselves?

It was also advertised as requiring no paperwork for goods from Britain. How did that work out? Hint, the UK government are happy to say one thing and mean another, if you've been paying attention for the last 5 years.

Seth Brundle

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's being advertised in the north as 'best of both worlds' with the protocol. That's the mantra.

If it is then why not for ourselves?

Really?
NI was dragged out of the EU.
You think we should choose to leave just because NI managed to get the best deal available to them?

Kermit.de.frog

timetogo1 wrote: »

It was also advertised as requiring no paperwork for goods from Britain. How did that work out? Hint, the UK government are happy to say one thing and mean another, if you've been paying attention for the last 5 years.

But hold on, Dublin and Brussels are shouting best of both worlds.

OK. Why not for us? Why only the 6 counties? If it's the best of both and all...

Sam Russell

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Really?
NI was dragged out of the EU.
You think we should choose to leave just because NI managed to get the best deal available to them?

NI had the best deal - they were full members of the EU - not anymore.

CelticRambler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It's being advertised in the north as 'best of both worlds' with the protocol. That's the mantra.

If it is then why not for ourselves?

It already is for "ourselves". The only difference is that no-one in the Republic gives a damn about checks being carried out on the Irish Sea border.

That, ultimately, is the difference between the Irish and the Unionist Irish: we - the common Irishman - are quite happy to treat the neighbouring island as an extension of our parish, there to be used and abused as we see fit, while retaining our EU-pink passports. The orange-flavoured cousins in the top right-hand corner are so deeply wedded to their Dutch heritage that they can't abide the thought of anything getting in the way of their connection to the homeland ... other than the neighbouring island.

Like Brexit, it makes absolutely no economic, historical or cultural sense whatsoever, but apparently it's a good enough reason for Frost to get into bed with armed criminals.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Hmm, I wonder was that EU official from France or Ireland. It's so hard to guess...

I know a lot of french speakers and they often use that turn of phrase. C'est plus facile à prononcer!

timetogo1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But hold on, Dublin and Brussels are shouting best of both worlds.

OK. Why not for us? Why only the 6 counties? If it's the best of both and all...

Edit: Actually the 6 counties are part of the UK. We're part of the EU.
They currently want to remain part of the UK. So it's the best of a bad situation.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

The best of both worlds is also one we have on a whole range of people movement issues. Trade is a lot more complex.

Padre_Pio

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there any evidence of the UK lowering standards, or is it just the fact they're outside the club now?

It's also about equivalence. How easy is it to compare UK standards to EU standards.

EN standards are constantly updated. There's no mechanism to enforce these updates in UK law.

Christy42

Padre_Pio wrote: »

It's also about equivalence. How easy is it to compare UK standards to EU standards.

EN standards are constantly updated. There's no mechanism to enforce these updates in UK law.

I would also add there is no guarantee they won't lower it in future in which case we would immediately need checks.

PokeHerKing

If the UK continue to stay rogue there is and always was only 2 options. A border on this island or a border between Ireland and Europe.

There was never any solution to the problem outside of essentially annexing NI back but the unionists aren't happy with that, as much as I loathe them, can't really fault them.

We'd need a vote in ROI, I'd be voting for a border on the island, even though it would hurt to do so.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But hold on, Dublin and Brussels are shouting best of both worlds.

OK. Why not for us? Why only the 6 counties? If it's the best of both and all...

This might be the stupidest line of thought I've ever seen on this website.

Padre_Pio

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But hold on, Dublin and Brussels are shouting best of both worlds.

OK. Why not for us? Why only the 6 counties? If it's the best of both and all...

Because the 6 counties are a completely different country to us.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Not to mention that we have influence over how those policies are formed and aren’t just a 3rd party user of someone else’s trade infrastructure.

We need to stop discussing the EU as if it’s some distant entity that we have no control over. It’s effectively an extension of our state, though pooling sovereignty, resources and deep voluntary cooperation.

Basically we are the team member with the deluded ex problem…

ambro25

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

But hold on, Dublin and Brussels are shouting best of both worlds.

OK. Why not for us? Why only the 6 counties? If it's the best of both and all...

It’s the best of both worlds for NI, because the protocol puts a plank across the 2 chairs, one of which NI would have been forced to choose in case of no-deal Brexit, with either option breaking the GFA.

That is why the EU27/Barnier put it (in a different and better form, but rejected by Parliament at the time) right at the top of the agenda 4 years ago, on the first day the EU-UK negotiations started.

In economic terms, the absolute best is full EU membership. The worst would have been no deal. The WA is a marginal step up from no-deal. The protocol is a halfway-house-with-strings between the WA and EU membership: that’s why Dublin & Brussels refer to it as ‘best of both worlds’. Because unlike the rest of the UK, NI *does* get to have *and to eat* a little cake.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

ambro25 wrote: »

’. Because unlike the rest of the UK, NI *does* get to have *and to eat* a little cake.

The keyword there is “little”. The NI exemption is being allowed because of the unique circumstances and very small scale of the NI market and economy.

fash

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Simple, trade goes on between the UK & Ireland, trade goes on between Ireland and the remainder of the EU and trade goes on between the UK and the EU26, it also allows for frictionless borders between the three trading blocks.
It will not allow, for example for goods to use Ireland as a conduit between EU & UK.
It is probably a more workable solution than many suggested here.

aside from the fact that the UK is a small and shrinking market for Ireland and Ireland's agricultural reputation would be completely destroyed, why would we want to have the UK (and its lowered standards) dictate to us?

Kermit.de.frog

If Britain was behaving this way with an interest of Germany's and ignoring an agreement like they are with Ireland there would be tariffs and sanctions already in place by the EU.

The EU has yet to take any credible action.

Legal measures mean nothing to the Tories.

Where are the tariffs?

That's the only way to make them comply.

Seth Brundle

Sam Russell wrote: »

NI had the best deal - they were full members of the EU - not anymore.

Which is why I said that they were offered the best deal available to them.

PokeHerKing wrote: »

We'd need a vote in ROI, I'd be voting for a border on the island, even though it would hurt to do so.

It would be a British border though. It would be their actions and not those of the EU that would have necessitated its introduction.

CelticRambler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If Britain was behaving this way with an interest of Germany's and ignoring an agreement like they are with Ireland there would be tariffs and sanctions already in place by the EU.

The EU has yet to take any credible action.

Hurtling into ill-considered, possibly irreversible action is what got Britain into the mess it's in at the moment. Why do you think the EU should adopt that kind of stupidity as a model?

Thanks to the pandemic-related movement restrictions and new Brexit-related brakes on trade, there's no immediate significant threat to the Single Market, so the EU has plenty of time to build up a list of documented attempts at resolving the difficulties with practical solutions.

Much better to use a softly-softly approach now, let Frost and Johnson do their dance for the adoring public, then wield an almighty hammer when the timing is right for the EU.

KildareP

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If Britain was behaving this way with an interest of Germany's and ignoring an agreement like they are with Ireland there would be tariffs and sanctions already in place by the EU.

The EU has yet to take any credible action.

Legal measures mean nothing to the Tories.

Where are the tariffs?

That's the only way to make them comply.

And yet, you were one of those critical of the EU over their intention to invoke Article 16 earlier this year to retain supply of AstraZeneca within the bloc that was at the time being shipped out en masse to the UK.

No doubt if the UK had tarriffs applied to them by the EU at this stage in retaliation for their failure to abide by the NIP, you'd be on here complaining about how they're being heavy handed and unnecessarily antagonising the British government.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If Britain was behaving this way with an interest of Germany's and ignoring an agreement like they are with Ireland there would be tariffs and sanctions already in place by the EU.

The EU has yet to take any credible action.

Legal measures mean nothing to the Tories.

Where are the tariffs?

That's the only way to make them comply.

What do you think will happen if the EU announces tariffs on the UK in the morning?

You seem to be under the illusion that the UK government will accept the pain and expense for both business and consumers and this will then bring them to their senses.

That is wrong on a number of issues.

Brexit is an ideology. They have refused Vetinary standards, musicians visa etc becuase they won't accept any sense that the EU have any power.
Brexit is based on the idea that by the UK leaving the EU, the EU will inevitably fall apart, and before doing so will do whatever it can to keep the UK sweet.
The tariffs will not be imposed because anything the UK have or haven't done, they are being imposed because the EU bureacrats don't like being stood up to and this is just another bully trying to force the UK into giving up.

The EU are hoping to avoid escalating the issues, hoping that eventually the UK will see sense. It has been rather futile so far, but then again so far the EU have pretty much got everythung they wanted and the it is the UK lashing about trying to claim that it everybody is being terrible mean and sticking to the laws.

The UK have backed themselves further and further into the corner and the reason why the rhetoric from the UK has increased is that deadlines are approaching and they are desperately trying to push back reality.

Going Strong

Yet more Brexit benefits.

Supermarkets to make more money through, err, increased prices.

Brexit: Lorry driver shortage could mean higher prices in shops

Owens Group in Carmarthenshire said it had lost 50 drivers who were EU citizens, as they did not meet the new criteria for skilled work visas.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-57354636

The Have Your Say heroes in the comments think it's no big deal so that's alright then.

Seth Brundle

Looks like the Aussies are prepared to walk away from the trade deal that the UK is banking on to help make it look like Brexit was worthwhile.
The Aussies want wide access to UK markets whereas the UK farmers will be crucified if that happens. Going on recent UK history, I take it for granted that the UK farmers will be shafted.

I wonder what conversation Johnson will try and have with Australian PM Scott Morrison next week at the G7 summit in order to get the deal signed.

https://twitter.com/grahambsi/status/1402659318126817283

Capt'n Midnight

Thanks to the recent trade deal the BBC is able to ask the big questions.

Will UK bands start touring in Liechtenstein?

What is the status of UK citizens passing through Switzerland because guess who doesn't have an airport.

Not a biggie as they are signed up to the TIR convention.

timetogo1

EU commission statement today.

https://twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1402659441498013697?s=19

They refer to the rumours in Politico (I presume it's concerning the politico story, unless there are other rumours about Ireland being reported today) so that should alleviate Kermit's concerns.

10000maniacs

PokeHerKing wrote: »

If the UK continue to stay rogue there is and always was only 2 options. A border on this island or a border between Ireland and Europe.

There was never any solution to the problem outside of essentially annexing NI back but the unionists aren't happy with that, as much as I loathe them, can't really fault them.

We'd need a vote in ROI, I'd be voting for a border on the island, even though it would hurt to do so.

The Tories and the DUP want their cake and eat it too.
They want to play 18 holes without paying the membership fee.
Even if a deal is agreed on the protocol, Johnson is going to scrap it in a few months anyway. I hope the EU sticks to it's guns.

dogbert27

Gap are due to close 19 stores across the UK and Ireland in the next month.

I wonder if the continuing delay in "Freedom Day" is the UK government afraid of opening up everything and the distraction of Covid being replaced with the public beginning to focus on changes to their lives from Brexit with the grace period ending in 3 weeks time.

PokeHerKing

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Which is why I said that they were offered the best deal available to them.


It would be a British border though. It would be their actions and not those of the EU that would have necessitated its introduction.

Does that matter? I don't think so. It will be a border, a target etc. Its not the EUs fault, it is what it is but IF the UK push the envelope the whole way then there is only two options for the EU/Ireland. Either we choose "peace" or we choose a hard border.

Not going to happen overnight or anything IMHO. But logically if you take the UKs current posturing to its end game then its the only outcome really.

Strazdas

Fascinating story in The Times that the US lodged a formal protest with the UK over NI a week ago and that Frost was given a severe dressing down by US officials :

https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1402739632647901187