Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ClosedAccountFuzzy

I love the way they go on about “imperial powers” as if they were casual, third party observers and never participated in anything like the burning of the Summer Palace / Yuan ming Yuan or have a vast hoard of Chinese artefacts in the British Museum. The Opium Wars were someone else, were they? That other British Empire who they don’t know?

They were trying to explain EU membership borrowing the clothes of Irish history too.

Then that stomach churning Widdecombe speech in the European Parliament, where she compared Brexit to the emancipation of slaves was probably the worst example and deeply offensive to people who were actually enslaved.

It seems they’re so tone deaf they will use the narrative of the victims of the empire that ran and continue to revere, and see nothing wrong with that and fail to understand why it is jaw dropping levels of utterly sanctimonious, hysterical, revisionist nonsense.

It even goes on to lecture on self awareness?!?

Launching a media attack on Joe Biden will simply bolt the UK to the very toxic history of the Trump administration in a lot of American minds and sour relations with a swathe of mainstream American politics. It would be an extremely poor strategy and result in yet more bridge burning.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/sean_haughey/status/1402982643415715849

Haughey saying there will be no EU/US trade deal if the protocol isn't implemented.


Welcome to the team Sean!

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

For a so called director or policy maker, this guy doesn't seem very calm or measured. Sounds like it was written by a Daily Express reader or a member of UKIP.

Well, he is the director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom.

peter kern

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Apparently an article by Allister Heath in today's Telegraph is setting the scene that the EU literally bullied the UK into signing the agreement.
It really is pathetic at this stage but I take it for granted that this hoodwinking of the British public will continue as it has for the last number of years.
The article is behind a paywall but the images from the tweet are below.

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1402894867504799745

so is this guy saying that the tory slogan that no deal is better than a bad deal was always a lie ...and they fell for it ...

ClosedAccountFuzzy

All I can really take from that stance is that the UK is no longer prepared to be bound by any treaty of any type and sees all agreements as a restriction on an absolute notion of self determination.

How exactly will it be able to do trade deals with anyone? How will it remain in the WTO? Why is it trying to sign up to partake in the Trans Pacific Trade Partnership, a proto EU style trade bloc? Will the UK be able to cooperate with NATO, or will it want the freedom to pursue side deals on its own terms, like Turkey has buying Russian defence systems? Is it planning to sign a US trade deal and then ignore the rules it signs up to?

It raises a lot of questions about the UK.

Are we seeing an ultra-libertarian UK that’s planning to go around trying to destroy the systems of rule based trade that have brought about much of the prosperity and relative stability of the latter part of the 20th and early 21st centuries?

They seem to be stamping their feet and attempting to do just that.

Kermit.de.frog

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

It raises a lot of questions about the UK.

Does it? We have always known this. Actually from an Irish perspective you can all the way back to 1921. They didn't keep to agreements then either. See the boundaries commission in relation to the north...

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Does it? We have always known this. Actually from an Irish perspective you can all the way back to 1921. They didn't keep to agreements then either. See the boundaries commission in relation to the north...

Yes, but in most of those cases we were a small country that they didn’t take seriously and had no scale of importance in their economic relations.

They’re pulling the same stunts on very significant trade partners this time and in an era where rules based trade is very much at the core of global trade end international relations. It’s a very different world to the late 19th / early 20th century.

ZeroThreat

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, he is the director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom.

lol why would someone associate one of the most far right and autocratic British leaders of modern times, with 'freedom'?

Must be the same sort of 'freedom' professed by neocons during the Bush years, ie. the freedom to oppress others for your own financial gain.

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I'm just wondering when the waffle is going to stop and the counter measures begin.

It's a perfectly reasonable question.

The British government is in default of the withdrawal agreement it has signed.

We have the pro EU people talking up the bloc but the bloc has done nothing to ensure compliance and that's why Johnson does what he likes.

And the British are going to do what they like again before the end of the month and the grace period on chilled meats entering NI.

This ends one of two ways. Either the EU forces compliance or Ireland is pushed out of the single market.

Take your pick.

It would be a reasonable question, if we were past the negotiations and the UK had once again acted unilaterally in changing the timeline for checks to happen. Seeing as this has not happened yet but it is being threatened we cannot have the EU act because acting before the UK does not hold up their side of the NIP would be exactly the thing you were ranting about with Article 16 and the EU with the vaccines.

It is amazing that you are arguing this now. You had the bee in your bonnet about Article 16 and now you are advocating for exactly this. Do you understand how silly this is?

Padre_Pio

Enzokk wrote: »

It is amazing that you are arguing this now. You had the bee in your bonnet about Article 16 and now you are advocating for exactly this. Do you understand how silly this is?

No different to the average Brexiter comment on any forum.

Kermit.de.frog

Enzokk wrote: »

It would be a reasonable question, if we were past the negotiations and the UK had once again acted unilaterally in changing the timeline for checks to happen. Seeing as this has not happened yet but it is being threatened we cannot have the EU act because acting before the UK does not hold up their side of the NIP would be exactly the thing you were ranting about with Article 16 and the EU with the vaccines.

It is amazing that you are arguing this now. You had the bee in your bonnet about Article 16 and now you are advocating for exactly this. Do you understand how silly this is?

Your question makes zero sense.

I'm talking about the cross-retaliation measures available in the treaty to deal with non compliance.

What has that got to do with article 16 of the protocol? That has nothing to do with compliance.

Enzokk

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Your question makes zero sense.

I'm talking about the cross-retaliation measures available in the treaty to deal with non compliance.

What has that got to do with article 16 of the protocol? That has nothing to do with compliance.

The talks are still ongoing? You are asking for action now while they are still talking.

Boris Johnson must respect rule of law and implement Brexit deal, says EU

At a meeting on Wednesday between David Frost, the UK’s Brexit minister, and EU representatives, they failed to find agreement on a range of other disputes and looming crunch points.

The construction of border control posts at ports in Northern Ireland has been suspended, sufficient staff have not been recruited to carry out controls and checks and systems to trace goods have not been built, EU officials complain.

The EU believes the UK’s attitude towards the end of a grace period on a ban on the export from Great Britain to Northern Ireland of chilled meats such as sausages and mince will present a “crossroads” moment.

The current crises is about an upcoming date. You are calling for action now. Do you understand this? There is still time to find a solution, but you want action already, almost because you know it would cause chaos and allow you to post about how useless the EU was when they acted too soon.

ancapailldorcha

Name calling is not welcome on this forum. Post deleted.

Kermit.de.frog

Padre_Pio wrote: »

No different to the average Brexiter comment on any forum.

Since I'm not British I fail to see how that could be the case.

The name calling from certain quaters comes from worry that people like me in this country are changing tack on the EU having been fully supportive of it.

That's the issue you have and you can't stand a contrarian view to your own being aired.

If you want to promote the EU, promote it. I have no issue. I won't call you names. But i'm fully entitled to air the views of what I firmly believe is that of an increasing number of people in this country to counter it.

Kermit.de.frog

Enzokk wrote: »

The talks are still ongoing? You are asking for action now while they are still talking.

Boris Johnson must respect rule of law and implement Brexit deal, says EU

You have fallen in to the British govt trap to make the impression that there is a negotiation to be had. This has been part of their strategy for months.

The negotiations ended on this with the protocol and withdrawal agreement.

That's the message the EU needs to enforce, that the negotiations are over and to respect and implement the agreement.

dogbert27

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You have fallen in to the British govt trap to make the impression that there is a negotiation to be had. This has been part of their strategy for months.

The negotiations ended on this with the protocol and withdrawal agreement.

That's the message the EU needs to enforce, that the negotiations are over and to respect and implement the agreement.

There is still a grace period up to June 30th so they cannot do anything until then.

If the UK do something stupid after the grace period ends the EU are now warning the UK that they are ready to act straight away and hence will be doing what you want them to do.

They cannot do anything right now though as the UK government are only saying that they are going to break the agreement after the grace period is complete.

Come back in 3 weeks if the UK government follow through on their threat and the EU still will not have taken immediate action.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You have fallen in to the British govt trap to make the impression that there is a negotiation to be had. This has been part of their strategy for months.

The negotiations ended on this with the protocol and withdrawal agreement.

That's the message the EU needs to enforce, that the negotiations are over and to respect and implement the agreement.

This "trap" doesn't help the UK much or change anything about our situation as far as I can see. I'm sure the EU negotiators and officials know by now the UK government cannot be trusted.

The EU will (eventually) escalate this considerably with the UK I think, (well) before your nightmare or dream scenario of Ireland coming under some pressure to protect Single Market in absence of the Protocol comes to pass.

You know the EU is usually slow and legalistic; that episode with Article 16 and the vaccine exports was an untypical and pressured reaction from anger with AstraZeneca and the UK.

You were very hard on the EU over that, and now you are hard on it again for not reaching for the tools to hammer the UK immediately.

fash

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Hold my coat...

This is also from today's Telegraph. It's an opinion piece written by Nile Gardiner, Director of the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom - part of the Heritage Foundation in Washington.

To put it very mildly, Mr Gardiner seems quite unimpressed by President Biden. Interestingly, it turns out that Biden is an Irish Nationalist and an IRA supporter.


Headline:
Joe Biden should keep his sneering anti-British, anti-Brexit views to himself

Article:
The revelation that the Biden administration issued a “demarche” or diplomatic dressing down to the British government last week over its handling of the Northern Ireland border should cause outrage in Britain. This is the kind of treatment that is normally dished out to enemies of the United States, such as Russia, and hardly ever issued against a close ally.
As both The Telegraph and The Times have reported, Biden’s most senior diplomat in London delivered a firm rebuke on June 3 on behalf of the president to Brexit minister Lord Frost declaring that Britain’s stance on the Northern Ireland Protocol was jeopardising the future of the Northern Ireland peace process. To make matters even worse, Yael Lempert, Washington’s chargé d'affaires in London, issued a thinly veiled warning, linking the prospect of a US/UK free trade deal with White House demands for the UK to follow the European Union’s directives on agricultural standards.

In many respects, this is Joe Biden's "back of the queue" moment. Barack Obama's now infamous anti-Brexit intervention didn't go down well back in 2016, and threats like this will always backfire with the British people, who don't appreciate being lectured to by US presidents, not least one who displays his anti-British sentiments on his sleeve.

Unlike Obama, however, who was encouraged to intervene ahead of the Brexit referendum by then Prime Minister David Cameron, Biden didn’t act at the prodding of Downing Street. Biden’s Northern Ireland warning was a political cruise missile strike aimed directly at Boris Johnson and his Conservative government, with the intention of forcing a change in British policy. As a staunch Irish nationalist, Biden has frequently been critical of Great Britain over Northern Ireland, and now that he is president sees an opportunity to take it to task.

There is no love lost between Biden’s team, many of whom served in the Obama administration, and Boris Johnson. Some of Biden’s extremely sensitive aides are still unhappy with the former Mayor of London for his sharp criticism of Barack Obama over the removal of the Winston Churchill bust from the Oval Office back in 2009. They also intensely dislike Brexit and Johnson’s formerly close partnership with the Trump presidency. In addition, they have been angered by the strong stance of the British government in the culture wars, with its firm rejection of the kind of “woke” liberal agenda that is now central to the thinking of the Biden operation. Indeed, on many issues, the US and British governments are worlds apart, and Johnson has been forced to work with the most Left-wing US presidency in American history.

The arrogance of the Biden administration ahead of the G7 meeting in Cornwall has been nothing short of breathtaking. This is no way to treat America's closest friend and ally. The British people didn't vote for Joe Biden and the Democrats. They voted for Brexit and Boris Johnson's Conservatives. They voted to leave the EU and take back control of Britain's destiny. They don't need to be lectured by a US president who as a senator adopted a sympathetic stance towards the Irish Republican Army, and opposed the extradition of Irish terror suspects to face trial in the United Kingdom.

Biden’s predecessor, Donald Trump, was outspoken in his criticism of then prime minister Theresa May for what he saw as her weak handling of the Brexit negotiations. But he never made threats against Britain and always championed a free trade deal with the United Kingdom. Trump respected the democratic will of the British people to leave the European Union, and his instincts were profoundly pro-British and extremely supportive of the Special Relationship. Trump loathed the EU, and believed that the British people would be far better off completely freed of the shackles of the European Union.

Biden takes a very different approach to Trump when it comes to Europe and Brexit. He is a Eurofederalist at heart, who as vice president under Obama remarked in a speech before the European Parliament in 2010 that Brussels had a legitimate claim to be the “capital of the free world”. Biden has paid lip service in the past to the importance of the partnership with Britain, but he views the transatlantic alliance largely through the lens of the US/EU relationship, attaching great value to the Paris-Berlin-Brussels axis that has ruled continental Europe for the last few decades.

There should be a furious response in London to the Biden administration’s demands of the British government. President Biden needs to mind his own business. It is not his place to lecture the British Prime Minister and British officials about Northern Ireland and Brexit. Joe Biden should keep his sneering anti-British and anti-Brexit views to himself. At the G7 this week, Boris Johnson must stand up to Biden, and remind him that he, and not the US president, represents the democratic will of the British people.

I note he leaves out Johnson's racist "Kenyan" remarks as a reason why Obama/Biden may dislike Johnson - while accusing Biden of being "woke" (gasp, shock, horror etc).

Strazdas

Reading through the British right wing press coverage this afternoon ; they hate the EU and they hate the US under Biden. Is there anyone these guys actually like? It's extraordinary to see them being so isolationist.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You have fallen in to the British govt trap to make the impression that there is a negotiation to be had. This has been part of their strategy for months.

The negotiations ended on this with the protocol and withdrawal agreement.

That's the message the EU needs to enforce, that the negotiations are over and to respect and implement the agreement.

The point they are making is that you, along with huge numbers in the Uk, were aghast at the EU even mentioning the triggering of Art 16. That they quickly cancelled even the thought of it was not enough to stop many from blaming hte EU for inflaming tensions and basically destroying everything.

Now, take that reaction with the reaction if the EU talk about imposing tariffs and trade barriers before every possible avenue has been explored.

The UK are looking for a fight, they need the EU to step outside the agreement to give them the excuse. They tried to use the talk abut Art 16 but any sensible person could see that the EU didn't go through with it, and whilst clearly a mistake, it wasn't the basis for anything other than calling them out on it.

Throughout the process the EU has been the adult in the room, whlle the UK has continued to have tantrums. The EU have the upper hand, bith from a pure power OOV, but also from a legal and moral POV. They have no need to rush anything. Let the UK stew. The destination is known, the only unknown is how long it will take the UK to realise they have little options

Kermit.de.frog

fly_agaric wrote: »

This "trap" doesn't help the UK much or change anything about our situation as far as I can see. I'm sure the EU negotiators and officials know by now the UK government cannot be trusted.

The EU will (eventually) escalate this considerably with the UK I think, (well) before your nightmare or dream scenario of Ireland coming under some pressure to protect Single Market in absence of the Protocol comes to pass.

You know the EU is usually slow and legalistic; that episode with Article 16 and the vaccine exports was an untypical and pressured reaction from anger with AstraZeneca and the UK.

You were very hard on the EU over that, and now you are hard on it again for not reaching for the tools to hammer the UK immediately.

The UK got exactly what they want according to the poster above because now it's a negotiation apparently.

And how did they get this new 'negotiation'?

They unilaterally took actions in defiance of the treaty they signed and got a negotiation to improve their position out of it.

They'll do the same over and over again and they are going to do it again in the next couple of weeks.

Strazdas

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK got exactly what they want according to the poster above because now it's a negotiation apparently.

And how did they get this new 'negotiation'?

They unilaterally took actions in defiance of the treaty they signed and got a negotiation to improve their position out of it.

They'll do the same over and over again and they are going to do it again in the next couple of weeks.

Making some minor adjustments to how an international treaty implemented is not a "renegotiation" of said treaty.

To enter into a renegotiation would be insane from the EU's point of view. It would mean virtually any agreement or treaty they sign with a third country wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

fly_agaric

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The UK got exactly what they want according to the poster above because now it's a negotiation apparently.

And how did they get this new 'negotiation'?

Well, it wasn't my phrase (negotiation). I would have characterised it as the EU continuing to ask them to uphold their end of the bargain really.
That seems to be the substance of the EU statements on it.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They unilaterally took actions in defiance of the treaty they signed and got a negotiation to improve their position out of it.

They'll do the same over and over again and they are going to do it again in the next couple of weeks.

Yes, they might but I don't think the UK have improved their position. They will just continue not to honour agreement they made.
A harder EU reponse will happen eventually if UK does not change course and as I said, the options for that will be exhausted by the EU I think before we in Ireland start to feel under pressure to protect the single market.

You do know these harder edged EU responses you want to see immediately like tariffs, or suspending parts of TCA [if that is possible] (to in effect bring about a late "no deal" Brexit) are going to hurt this country too? Who does Ireland do alot of trade with - even in these post-Brexit days?

CelticRambler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

The negotiations ended on this with the protocol and withdrawal agreement.

No, they didn't. The NIP and TCA include provisions for on-going negotiations, through the establishment of Joint Committees and the like.

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

And how did they get this new 'negotiation'?

They unilaterally took actions in defiance of the treaty they signed and got a negotiation to improve their position out of it.

Nope. Again, you're not seeing things as they are. The first set of negotiations were completed, and we passed to the transition phase. The second set of negotiations were completed and Brexit got "done". Now we're into the third phase of negotiations, the fine-tuning of the various elements of the NIP and TCA. There will be fourth and fifth and sixth negotiations from now till kingdom come (see: Switzerland)

This was all set down in writing, and the mechanisms put in place to ensure that it happened in an orderly fashion, and bearing in mind that despite all their talk about being world-leaders in just about every domain of human activity, the British were hopelessly unprepared to get "done" the Brexit they so dearly wanted.

All we're seeing now is the toddler screaming and stamping their feet because they can't have what they want, refusing to go to bed and insisting on wearing their sopping wet superman pyjamas. Giving them a smack isn't going to help, especially when you know they're going to collapse into an exhausted sleep soon enough and you can do what needs to be done.

Professor Moriarty

Strazdas wrote: »

Reading through the British right wing press coverage this afternoon ; they hate the EU and they hate the US under Biden. Is there anyone these guys actually like? It's extraordinary to see them being so isolationist.

The corollary of that is: Is there any country that actually likes this current UK?

Seth Brundle

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The corollary of that is: Is there any country that actually likes this current UK?

Possibly Russia

Kermit.de.frog

CelticRambler wrote: »

No, they didn't. The NIP and TCA include provisions for on-going negotiations, through the establishment of Joint Committees and the like.



Nope. Again, you're not seeing things as they are. The first set of negotiations were completed, and we passed to the transition phase. The second set of negotiations were completed and Brexit got "done". Now we're into the third phase of negotiations, the fine-tuning of the various elements of the NIP and TCA. There will be fourth and fifth and sixth negotiations from now till kingdom come (see: Switzerland)

This was all set down in writing, and the mechanisms put in place to ensure that it happened in an orderly fashion, and bearing in mind that despite all their talk about being world-leaders in just about every domain of human activity, the British were hopelessly unprepared to get "done" the Brexit they so dearly wanted.

All we're seeing now is the toddler screaming and stamping their feet because they can't have what they want, refusing to go to bed and insisting on wearing their sopping wet superman pyjamas. Giving them a smack isn't going to help, especially when you know they're going to collapse into an exhausted sleep soon enough and you can do what needs to be done.

They are trying to fundamentally change the protocol. This is not about flexibilities that have been negotiated in the protocol for the British.

It's you who is not seeing things as they are. We are being played and the EU should have moved before now - they haven't so we have lost ground.

There is no negotiation. That's over. It is in black and white in the treaty.

It's up to the EU to say that clearly to Britain and when Britain breaks the law again in the next few days sanctions need to be applied. Otherwise it's nothing less than appeasement.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1403042246119804931

Interesting that the EU is not mentioned there in the free trade bit. Celtic sea border then?

Johnson has been saying this for months. Free trade east west north south...

ClosedAccountFuzzy

Johnson will do himself a lot of damage with the US by being seen as a facsimile of Trump and that is how he is being interpreted.

schmoo2k

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

They are trying to fundamentally change the protocol. This is not about flexibilities that have been negotiated in the protocol for the British.

It's you who is not seeing things as they are. We are being played and the EU should have moved before now - they haven't so we have lost ground.

There is no negotiation. That's over. It is in black and white in the treaty.

It's up to the EU to say that clearly to Britain and when Britain breaks the law again in the next few days sanctions need to be applied. Otherwise it's nothing less than appeasement.

Yes and no - the EU have been clearly and consistently telling the UK what they need to do (fulfil their end of the agreement) - but, they can't simply apply sanctions because the same agreement has specific steps to follow should one side believe that the other is not fulfilling their side of the bargain and those steps end with sanctions, not begin with them (very civilised I know).