Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

roosterman71

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm with EE. That's not too bad but it's the sort of trivial nonsense that's more likely to make people take note than stories of job losses.

True. Still it's an extra cost when travelling which wasn't there before. Doesn't say anything about usage limits and such things. I assume then you're existing plan/deal is in play with an extra charge on top

ancapailldorcha

roosterman71 wrote: »

True. Still it's an extra cost when travelling which wasn't there before. Doesn't say anything about usage limits and such things. I assume then you're existing plan/deal is in play with an extra charge on top

I'd say the mandatory covid tests are a much bigger disincentive to travel at the moment. It's annoying but I'd take it over not being able to travel.

Seth Brundle

This is apparently how the Daily Express are selling the EE roaming charges story :rolleyes:...

Strazdas

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This is apparently how the Daily Express are selling the EE roaming charges story :rolleyes:...

It strikes me that one way that Brexit will start to feed through to the UK consciousness is when people realise that they are now second class citizens in Europe (which is what they voted for of course). There's going to be a myriad of scenarios of "Oh, none of these benefits apply to you. You don't count, you're from the UK".

CelticRambler

Strazdas wrote: »

It strikes me that one way that Brexit will start to feed through to the UK consciousness is when people realise that they are now second class citizens in Europe (which is what they voted for of course). There's going to be a myriad of scenarios of "Oh, none of these benefits apply to you. You don't count, you're from the UK".

I had one of these this week. The French job offer to which I referred the other day came to the attention of a GB-NI-RoI recruitment agency, that got in touch to tell me what great access they had to the graduates of the (relatively limited number of) relevant UK universities.

This was a real person, not a bot, making contact and he seemed quite taken aback when I pointed out that UK degrees are no longer recognised and GB citizens don't have the right to work here. So the only university on his list that's of any interest to me is UCD, and I have my own contacts there.

In the same timeframe, one of my young festival friends proof-read the ad and, as she works in a Dutch university offering the right degree, offered to circulate it there. Yep, go ahead, no problem, we're all one big happy family, and there's a GB-sized hole in the graduate pool this year just waiting to be filled by young EU graduates with an EU passport and an EU vaccination cert.

(I'm waiting, almost hoping, to see if a Dublin-trained proud-to-be-British NI Unionist will enquire about the job and reassure me that they'll be putting an application in for an Irish passport as soon as we get off the phone ... )

reslfj

KildareP wrote: »

On roaming - they are not "reintroducing roaming charges", ... but if you go over you are charged £3.50/GB.
With the exception of Vodafone, all of the Irish operators here already have such a scheme in place ... before you are charged overage of €5.54/GB (including VAT).

The EU rules for EU27 citizens have a basic max rate of €3/GB in 2021 (€2.5/GB in 2022).

CAP 1.
For a fixed rate plan allowing X GB/month in your own country, the provider needs not allow more than X GB within the EU.

CAP 2.
Two times the price of your plan/month ex VAT. divided by the EU max rate (pt. €3/GB) should be free.

E.G. my inexpensive mobile plan gives unlimited talk and 7 GB in DK at € 6.33 /month ex VAT.
Free roaming data = 2 x €6.33/month / €3/GB = 2 x 2.11 GB = 4.22 GB/month = 5 GB/month (rounded up by my provider '3')
My provider uses the EU rules for UK incl. The Crown Dependencies and Gibraltar.

CAP 3.
There are some rules to prevent permanent use of a plan in another country. (look them up, might be relevant for a longer stay than normal travel)

The 25 GB seems a high CAP, but the £3.95 is around 50% above the EU allowed level (+- VAT?)


Lars

Note: CH, Monaco, Andorra are not following the EU rules and have exorbitant prices for data roaming (~ €10.000/GB)
Close all date roaming before you get even near these or near any of the EU/EEA outer borders.

CelticRambler

reslfj wrote: »

TNote: CH, Monaco, Andorra are not following the EU rules and have exorbitant prices for data roaming (~ €10.000/GB)
Close all date roaming before you get even near these or near any of the EU/EEA outer borders.

Not necessarily following the rules - but individual operators may have their own, better, arrangements. My (French) phone can use up to 25GB of data in Switzerland without charge ... but not in Monaco or Andorra. :rolleyes:

redcup342

reslfj wrote: »

The EU rules for EU27 citizens have a basic max rate of €3/GB in 2021 (€2.5/GB in 2022).

CAP 1.
For a fixed rate plan allowing X GB/month in your own country, the provider needs not allow more than X GB within the EU.

CAP 2.
Two times the price of your plan/month ex VAT. divided by the EU max rate (pt. €3/GB) should be free.

E.G. my inexpensive mobile plan gives unlimited talk and 7 GB in DK at € 6.33 /month ex VAT.
Free roaming data = 2 x €6.33/month / €3/GB = 2 x 2.11 GB = 4.22 GB/month = 5 GB/month (rounded up by my provider '3')
My provider uses the EU rules for UK incl. The Crown Dependencies and Gibraltar.

CAP 3.
There are some rules to prevent permanent use of a plan in another country. (look them up, might be relevant for a longer stay than normal travel)

The 25 GB seems a high CAP, but the £3.95 is around 50% above the EU allowed level (+- VAT?)


Lars

Note: CH, Monaco, Andorra are not following the EU rules and have exorbitant prices for data roaming (~ €10.000/GB)
Close all date roaming before you get even near these or near any of the EU/EEA outer borders.

Can confirm, we just drove through Monaco and it ate 50 quid of credit with the car just passing through the town, I think it was like 200kb of data.

In short turn on roaming but fix your phone to a local network.

Will be the same down on the Costa Del Sol ... Gib Telekom will whip 50 quid roaming data from your bill.

Happened to a mate of mine when he was in Holland he got onto Telekom here in Germany. Turned out his phone had connected to a boat that had a mobile network.

murphaph

Seth Brundle wrote: »

This is apparently how the Daily Express are selling the EE roaming charges story :rolleyes:...

Wow. Just wow. They have absolutely no shame.

paul71

murphaph wrote: »

Wow. Just wow. They have absolutely no shame.

I have always wanted to avoid giving traffic to their website but opened it today.

I have to say I was an admirer of British journalism as a child, I read The Beano, Dandy and Roy of the Rovers.

The standard has fallen.

Capt'n Midnight

SNIP. Serious posts only please.

lawred2

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

The 5th anniversary of Brexit is a good time to take a look back at Daniel Hannan's predictions about how well Britain would do after leaving the EU:



Pure gold.

https://reaction.life/britain-looks-like-brexit/

...the world’s fifth economy and fourth military power, one of five members on the UN Security Council and a leading member of the G7 and the Commonwealth. We recalled, too, that we were the world’s leading exporter of soft power; that our language was the most widely studied on Earth; that we were linked by kinship and migration to every continent and archipelago...

All of that was the case while being members of the EU

CelticRambler

Looks like someone ordered a few portions of humble pie for the British government this week:

On the one hand:

The deterioration in relations with the EU ... has come as a surprise to those, who campaigned to leave the bloc five years ago, the government has admitted.

The Brexit minister, Lord Frost, said they had dreamed of a sovereign Britain, which could set forth on a global mission while maintaining friendly relations with its neighbours.

and on the other:

British officials acknowledged they were taken by surprise by the speed of the Russian reaction to HMS Defender’s 36-minute passage through Crimean waters on Wednesday

This buccaneering thing is harder than one might expect. :pac:

Then again, it's still really the EU's fault:

A committed Brexiter, [Lord Frost] said he felt the UK had experienced a “loss of will” after decades in Brussels and had become subordinate to the centralisation of laws even in areas where the UK had legal competence.

Funny how other countries - like Ireland, France, Germany, Poland, Lithuania ... - are perfectly capable of retaining an understanding of what's going on in the world and how to live in it, despite being even more integrated into the EU than Britain ever was. :rolleyes:

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

Looks like someone ordered a few portions of humble pie for the British government this week:

On the one hand:



and on the other:



This buccaneering thing is harder than one might expect. :pac:

Then again, it's still really the EU's fault:


Funny how other countries - like Ireland, France, Germany, Poland, Lithuania ... - are perfectly capable of retaining an understanding of what's going on in the world and how to live in it, despite being even more integrated into the EU than Britain ever was. :rolleyes:

I think you're misreading the comments that Britain was surprised by the speed of Russian reaction to the British destroyer.It refers to Russia quickly releasing propaganda claiming they fired on the destroyer.They had footage of the vessel but no footage of any bombs or gun fire which is strange considering their claims.
Are you aware Russian bombers have been entering Irish airspace according to RTE?

Akrasia

The Russians clearly see an opportunity here. They helped to engineer Brexit through their interference in the Brexit referendum, now they’re creating scenarios to test weakened solidarity between the UK and the EU

The RAF has always protected Irish airspace from Russian incursions, not because they’re friendly neighbors, but because an undefend airspace a few miles to their west represents a big risk to their own security

However, the UK are not in the EU anymore and diplomatic relations are at a very low ebb so they’re testing to see if the UK will rush to defend Ireland in the EU, and if the EU will rush to defend the UK in disputed waters outside of the EU

dogbert27

Akrasia wrote: »

The Russians clearly see an opportunity here. They helped to engineer Brexit through their interference in the Brexit referendum, now they’re creating scenarios to test weakened solidarity between the UK and the EU

The RAF has always protected Irish airspace from Russian incursions, not because they’re friendly neighbors, but because an undefend airspace a few miles to their west represents a big risk to their own security

However, the UK are not in the EU anymore and diplomatic relations are at a very low ebb so they’re testing to see if the UK will rush to defend Ireland in the EU, and if the EU will rush to defend the UK in disputed waters outside of the EU

Surely that would be a NATO reaction being needed not an EU response

FrancieBrady

Akrasia wrote: »

The Russians clearly see an opportunity here. They helped to engineer Brexit through their interference in the Brexit referendum, now they’re creating scenarios to test weakened solidarity between the UK and the EU

The RAF has always protected Irish airspace from Russian incursions, not because they’re friendly neighbors, but because an undefend airspace a few miles to their west represents a big risk to their own security

However, the UK are not in the EU anymore and diplomatic relations are at a very low ebb so they’re testing to see if the UK will rush to defend Ireland in the EU, and if the EU will rush to defend the UK in disputed waters outside of the EU

This is the wrong read. The RAF are using our airspace to protect themselves. It isn't a gesture of protection of us.
The Russians offer no more threat to us than the RAF represent or the US etc who all use our airspace and some of them use our ground facilities too.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I think you're misreading the comments that Britain was surprised by the speed of Russian reaction to the British destroyer.It refers to Russia quickly releasing propaganda ...

It doesn't really matter what it refers to, when it would appear that the British government were caught out by a rapid response to their provocative action.

This follows in the wake of their pretty calamitous handling of the G7 publicity. What should have been a celebration of "Britain leads the World" turned into a bonfire of goodwill, with Britain instead being portrayed as a delinquent, untrustworthy adolescent.

Frost is right, to a certain extent, when he says that Britain suffered a "loss of will" as members of the EU - but we all pointed that out back in the pre-Art.50 days. While other member states engaged in consensual governance and gave credit to the EU for collective successes, the UK continually treated their membership as a them-and-us struggle, and the Tories in particular regularly passed EU wins off as their own, even when they'd opposed whatever it was that was eventually agreed.

If one is always on the defensive, it's not easy to adjust to being a "leader" - and we're seeing evidence of just how hard that is for them, day after day. Being "surprised" by entirely foreseeable reactions is a hallmark of incompetence.

ClosedAccountFuzzy

lawred2 wrote: »

All of that was the case while being members of the EU

Also their language is the most studied on the world largely because of the USA, not Britain. If you’re teaching EFL in Korea for example, your quite literally paid less if you’re not American and you don’t teach U.K. grammar or spelling.

A friend of mine from London had that experience and was completely shocked that she, as a speaker of standard BBC-like English, yet got nearly 50% less than someone with a strong Boston accent.

It came down to one thing: they wanted to learn American English, not British English.

Zubeneschamali

CelticRambler wrote: »

Being "surprised" by entirely foreseeable reactions is a hallmark of incompetence.

I'd agree on the Russian provocation, they were surprised because they are bad at that stuff.

But when they claim to be surprised at the EU treating them as a 3rd country, they are just lying for the UK public, no-one else even thinks they mean it.

looksee

The RAF has always protected Irish airspace from Russian incursions, not because they’re friendly neighbors, but because an undefend airspace a few miles to their west represents a big risk to their own security

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is the wrong read. The RAF are using our airspace to protect themselves. It isn't a gesture of protection of us.
The Russians offer no more threat to us than the RAF represent or the US etc who all use our airspace and some of them use our ground facilities too.

How is it the wrong read, its precisely what you said?

FrancieBrady

looksee wrote: »

How is it the wrong read, its precisely what you said?

They overfly us, to protect Britain. The Russians do not offer us any threat.

CelticRambler

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But when they claim to be surprised at the EU treating them as a 3rd country, they are just lying for the UK public, no-one else even thinks they mean it.

Ah, I think there are many people in the Leaver/Brexiter camp who genuinely thought that the clock would be wound back to the good old days of the 1970s, and Britain would be treated as an "equal" partner by France and Germany and, would be dominant over less significant countries like Italy and Spain and the Netherlands. All those years of being indoctrinated with the idea of "the EU" as some kind of independent enemy state stopped them from understanding how much European politics had changed, and how the Union of all those countries under one umbrella had changed world politics too.

Back in the 70s, it was just as difficult for a German to move to France as it was for a Brit, and just as difficult for an Italian to sell goods in Spain as it was for a Brit. As I encounter more and more examples of Britain and things British being excluded from life in the EU - while the French, the Germans, the Irish, and the rest continue to enjoy the benefits - I'm convinced that the surprise is real.

redcup342

CelticRambler wrote: »

It doesn't really matter what it refers to, when it would appear that the British government were caught out by a rapid response to their provocative action.

This follows in the wake of their pretty calamitous handling of the G7 publicity. What should have been a celebration of "Britain leads the World" turned into a bonfire of goodwill, with Britain instead being portrayed as a delinquent, untrustworthy adolescent.

Frost is right, to a certain extent, when he says that Britain suffered a "loss of will" as members of the EU - but we all pointed that out back in the pre-Art.50 days. While other member states engaged in consensual governance and gave credit to the EU for collective successes, the UK continually treated their membership as a them-and-us struggle, and the Tories in particular regularly passed EU wins off as their own, even when they'd opposed whatever it was that was eventually agreed.

If one is always on the defensive, it's not easy to adjust to being a "leader" - and we're seeing evidence of just how hard that is for them, day after day. Being "surprised" by entirely foreseeable reactions is a hallmark of incompetence.

Its just like a real divorce
Abusive spouse blames all of their problems on the other party during the relationship.

They go through a long messy divorce and finally form a divorce agreement.

Then afterwards one of them isn't happy with the agreement and accuses the other one of not being flexible and continue to try and blame their problems on the other party.

Terminating a pre existing relationship is far different kettle of fish (Brexit) than never getting into a Relationship in the first place (Norway/Switzerland) because you lose all the privileges that you took for granted in the first place.

It's only going to get worse as the borders start to reopen, I'd say in the next 10 years we will see a big changes in the UK as it needs to evolve or it will end up on the back benches of the world stage as the untrustworthy basketcase.

Frost has been given a poison chalice, he'll get canned and replaced, not because he's not doing his job but because politically it will be easier to replace him with someone that has a fresh reputation to negotiate.

Will probably happen sometime briefly before the next time they have to ask to extend the NI Protocol.

Capt'n Midnight

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

It came down to one thing: they wanted to learn American English, not British English.

The UK should check out the political history of Europe sometime.

[The greatest political fact of modern times is] the inherited and permanent fact that North America speaks English.

- Otto von Bismarck

fly_agaric

FrancieBrady wrote: »

This is the wrong read. The RAF are using our airspace to protect themselves. It isn't a gesture of protection of us.
The Russians offer no more threat to us than the RAF represent or the US etc who all use our airspace and some of them use our ground facilities too.

On the second sentence (and not really very related to Brexit) there is an issue there in that they turn off radio transponders + as far as I understand Ireland has no way to detect them. We cannot know what is going on out there in the airspace supposedly under our control unless the UK tell us.
Russia is not very likely to fill us in on the activities of their airforce. The difference with the US airforce or RAF (even if relationships with UK are deteriorating) is I think US/UK would tell us if they planning some kind of military operations in our airspace.
This is not a "threat" from Russia as such, but it is a risk for Ireland as it could lead to an accident with a civilian plane some day that we would IMO bear some portion of responsibility for (if it happened in our airspace, which we cannot currently monitor or control without UK help).
Interesting recent article on this issue:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-gaping-gap-in-ireland-s-airspace-defence-1.4597124

edit: I suppose only relevance to Brexit I can claim is such dependence on the UK is something that has to be thought about and considered more in future as interests will diverge now with the UK outside the EU and Ireland inside it. I suppose Ireland can get away with it in this area because the UK is in NATO + has to protect/manage their own airspace, and we will get covered too by default.

CelticRambler

redcup342 wrote: »

It's only going to get worse as the borders start to reopen, I'd say in the next 10 years we will see a big changes in the UK as it needs to evolve or it will end up on the back benches of the world stage as the untrustworthy basketcase.

There are two different games in play now, neither of which leaves the UK in a great position. Firstly, there's the domestic position, and it's here that the reopening of borders will have the biggest impact. Trivial but newsworthy things like roaming charges, visa waivers, proofs of accommodation needed, "Brits need not apply" job ads - all this will, sooner or later, filter into the consciousness of the man on the Clapham omnibus, who will start to wonder why he's treated differently to his mate François or Pavel or Sergio.

And then you've got the global stage. With the traditional "emerging markets" more or less fully emerged now, and with the EU pulling together to boost post-covid recovery for all member states, there's a very real possibility that a near-future G7 summit will not include the UK because they're not in the top ten economies any more. If being shackled to England becomes a demonstrable handicap for Scotland, then IndyRef2 will be carried with a proper majority, further damaging the reputation of the nolongerUK. After that, an NI border poll and reunification of Ireland would, most likely, see Britain's England&Wales' permanent seat on the Security Council given to someone else.

You know, JRM may well have spoken the truth: it probably will take 50 years for Britain England to recoup the cost of Brexit.

FuzzyThinking

FuzzyThinking wrote: »

Also their language is the most studied on the world largely because of the USA, not Britain. If you’re teaching EFL in Korea for example, your quite literally paid less if you’re not American and you don’t teach U.K. grammar or spelling.

A friend of mine from London had that experience and was completely shocked that she, as a speaker of standard BBC-like English, yet got nearly 50% less than someone with a strong Boston accent.

It came down to one thing: they wanted to learn American English, not British English.

Seems hard to believe. I've never heard anything like that from people who've taught in Korea. In Vietnam, I work with Americans who earn about 60% of what I get so it's all anecdotal. None of my students want to go to America anymore whereas a decade ago, they all wanted to go there. It's all UK, Australia, Canada, NZ, and Singapore, or Germany, France, Korea, and Japan. And speaking with a posh British accent is actually becoming really popular.

CelticRambler

fly_agaric wrote: »

On the second sentence (and not really very related to Brexit) there is an issue there in that they turn off radio transponders + as far as I understand Ireland has no way to detect them.

Definitely not related to Brexit but on the subject of transponders, and British/NATO activity in the Black Sea, someone's playing games with that technology:

Positions of Two NATO Ships Were Falsified Near Russian Black Sea Naval Base

According to an automatic identification system (AIS) signal, which transmits position details to improve maritime safety, the pair left Odessa just before midnight on June 18. The data shows that they sailed directly to Sevastopol, approaching to within two nautical miles of the harbor entrance. The strategic port houses the headquarters of Russia’s Black Sea fleet.

Despite the AIS track, there is clear evidence that the two warships did not leave Odessa. Live webcam feeds show that they did not leave Odessa, however. This was anyway the known situation in defense circles, and local media. Anyone in Odessa can see that they did not leave. The webcams are broadcast live on YouTube by Odessa Online. Screenshots archived by third party weather sites like Windy.com show the two warships present in Odessa overnight.

Just another example of how all the military might in the world can't stop some nerd with a laptop creating an alternative reality that gets picked up and retweeted by journalists and keyboard warriors. It worked for Trump, it worked for Brexit, and it's working for the coronavirus. Anyone who's "surprised" by this needs to log in to the 21st Century.

FrancieBrady

fly_agaric wrote: »

On the second sentence (and not really very related to Brexit) there is an issue there in that they turn off radio transponders + as far as I understand Ireland has no way to detect them. We cannot know what is going on out there in the airspace supposedly under our control unless the UK tell us.
Russia is not very likely to fill us in on the activities of their airforce. The difference with the US airforce or RAF (even if relationships with UK are deteriorating) is I think US/UK would tell us if they planning some kind of military operations in our airspace.
This is not a "threat" from Russia as such, but it is a risk for Ireland as it could lead to an accident with a civilian plane some day that we would IMO bear some portion of responsibility for (if it happened in our airspace, which we cannot currently monitor or control without UK help).
Interesting recent article on this issue:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-gaping-gap-in-ireland-s-airspace-defence-1.4597124

edit: I suppose only relevance to Brexit I can claim is such dependence on the UK is something that has to be thought about and considered more in future. I suppose Ireland can get away with it in this area because the UK is in NATO + has to protect/manage their own airspace, and we will get covered too by default.

It could lead to an accident with any civilian aircraft including UK ones.
There have also been repeated accidents with vessels and equipment in the Irish Sea allegedly because UK and other submarines are operating secretly.

I know it is off topic and will leave it there. The RAF are up there for selfish, not wholly neighbourly reasons. Just like their famous 'loan' after the crash was to save their own banks...there is method in their 'generosity'.