Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

RobMc59

CelticRambler wrote: »

There is already a border between NI and Ireland. It's frictionless, but it's there all the same: drive across it and the road-signs change from kilometres to miles, money changes from Euros to Pounds, postboxes change from green to red. Other than the odd troglodyte, there's no-one in the Republic who doesn't accept that "the North" is a different country, but one to which we have seamless access - in almost exactly the same way that the French and the Swiss co-exist.

But whereas the Franco-Swiss border is marked by hundreds of disused guard-houses, toll gates and lorry-parks, these are tolerated by the local population because they represent nothing more than a long-established frontier between two territories (and, for the most part, are built along natural geographical features) the equivalent structures in Ireland are more akin to the Berlin Wall - a completely artificial barrier built by an invading army with the sole intention of splitting a country apart.

As has been discussed at length in previous threads, re-building the physical infrastructure that was repeatedly bombed throughout the 70s, 80s and 90s is neither sensible nor reasonable in this day and age. There are, according to the Brexiters, "technological solutions" available to enable seamless border checks, so by their own logic, the Irish Sea controls should be needed only for a very short time while we wait for them to come onstream. :rolleyes: In the meantime, the vast majority of us - European or identify-as-British - are quite happy to recognise NI as a special case and have inspectors working in a shed in the ports of Belfast or Larne.

I agree that the border is better now than 'back in the day 'although it doesn't seem to have changed much,just the previous trepidation which hung over an outsider in the border areas back then

Did I really just read someone say the border hasn't changed much since it was manned?

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I agree that the border is better now than 'back in the day 'although it doesn't seem to have changed much ...

:eek:

Deleted User wrote: »

Did I really just read someone say the border hasn't changed much since it was manned?

Looks that way. :rolleyes:

Sounds like Rob never enjoyed the full "trepidation" experience of being an casual tourist stopped at the blockhaus-style British border post, surrounded by half a dozen British Army soliders, guns at the ready, while one of them ordered you to open the car boot, with a helicopter thrumming in the sky overhead.

RobMc59

The only time I was stopped at/near the border back in the 80s was by an unmarked point on a road between Dundalk and the border. My wife is from a border county and I have never been stopped by or even seen uniformed BA soldiers at the border.

Fionn1952

RobMc59 wrote: »

The only time I was stopped at/near the border back in the 80s was by an unmarked point on a road between Dundalk and the border. My wife is from a border county and I have never been stopped or even seen uniformed BA soldiers at the border.

I'm from a border county, Rob. Let me assure you that the situation crossing the border now is more different than pretty much any comparison to another border you can make.

Rifles pointed in through windows at children, standing at the side of the road for 30mins to an hour as a bunch of fellas have a laugh at delaying a family with frivolous searching, tearing up the car. Even just the inherent intimidation of having to drive through a heavily armed post to travel ten miles down the island.

Perhaps you might consider that the experience of an English man driving through a border post staffed by the British Army might be different to the experience for an Irish person with an Irish sounding name, which was often enough provocation itself to trigger searches.

You're completely and utterly out of your depth here, Rob.

What on Earth. Every fortnight, I had rifles pointed at me going to Armagh. It was terrifying and the memories I have of it are incredibly vivid. I barely know what to say to someone claiming what I've just read.

Fionn1952

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What on Earth. Every fortnight, I had rifles pointed at me going to Armagh. It was terrifying and the memories I have of it are incredibly vivid. I barely know what to say to someone claiming what I've just read.

I'm sure Rob is also unaware of many of the roads crossing the border that were destroyed specifically to funnel people into these heavily armed border points.

It's not like Bessbrook was just up the road from where he's talking about or anything either....

RobMc59

Fionn1952 wrote: »

I'm from a border county, Rob. Let me assure you that the situation crossing the border now is more different than pretty much any comparison to another border you can make.

Rifles pointed in through windows at children, standing at the side of the road for 30mins to an hour as a bunch of fellas have a laugh at delaying a family with frivolous searching, tearing up the car. Even just the inherent intimidation of having to drive through a heavily armed post to travel ten miles down the island.

Perhaps you might consider that the experience of an English man driving through a border post staffed by the British Army might be different to the experience for an Irish person with an Irish sounding name, which was often enough provocation itself to trigger searches.

You're completely and utterly out of your depth here, Rob.

I can only say my own experiences of the border from the 80s up until present day.I maintain I never saw any unformed soldiers at the border.I crossed the border at various points,not just in one county.
How that puts me out of my depth is a mystery .

pixelburp

RobMc59 wrote: »

I can only say my own experiences of the border from the 80s up until present day.I maintain I never saw any unformed soldiers at the border.I crossed the border at various points,not just in one county.
How that puts me out of my depth is a mystery .

Because it wasn't the common case at border points between the two jurisdictions. There were many permanent hard points across the border, the two closest to where I grew up in Monaghan being Middleton and Aughnacloy, the latter an extremely significant setup IIRC, on par with something seen in Israel TBH. Every time we crossed it we were stopped, and memories growing up were of armed soldiers hovering around our car. These crossings are gone now., You'd never know they were there now but they were there.

Apologies mod for the segue.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

I see the advantages the protocol gives NI and looking beyond the histrionics of the DUP is probably more likely to keep NI within the UK.
I wonder though,if the crowd within the UK pulling Johnson's strings would engineer a situation where the EU started to build a border between NI and Ireland.
I speculated yesterday about what is more important to the EU,the protocol or the GFA and the majority appeared to think the protocol.
In addition,to date,there is only one organisation which has actually come close to triggering anything which would override any agreement.

Again Rob, the EU = Ireland + 26.

It's a extremely Brexiter centric view to talk about Ireland as a dominion.

Only yesterday suggestions by France and Germany to open dialogue with Putin were slapped down by small countries, which are the majority of the EU.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

I can only say my own experiences of the border from the 80s up until present day.I maintain I never saw any unformed soldiers at the border.I crossed the border at various points,not just in one county.
How that puts me out of my depth is a mystery .

I travelled between Dublin and Belfast a lot in the 80s and 90s and checkpoints were a regular thing. I think you're trolling.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I maintain I never saw any unformed soldiers at the border.

:eek:

Are you sure you're talking about Ireland? I lived well away from the border and had few reasons to cross it, but to the best of my recollection, there were never any fewer than five uniformed soldiers on the (British side of the) border every time; at times there would have been twenty or more.

The crossing on the way up to Newry would definitely have met any definition of "heavily fortified" and remains the most militarised border I've ever crossed, even including recent travels in Africa. My memories of the Derry frontier are perhaps most dramatic because of the continuous helicopter presence overhead (for hours and hours, not just the length of a crossing) ...

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The only time I was stopped at/near the border back in the 80s was by an unmarked point on a road between Dundalk and the border. My wife is from a border county and I have never been stopped by or even seen uniformed BA soldiers at the border.

This is a bizarre attempt to rewrite and water down history.

RobMc59

pixelburp wrote: »

Because it wasn't the common case at border points between the two jurisdictions. There were many permanent hard points across the border, the two closest to where I grew up in Monaghan being Middleton and Aughnacloy, the latter an extremely significant setup IIRC, on par with something seen in Israel TBH. Every time we crossed it we were stopped, and memories growing up were of armed soldiers hovering around our car. These crossings are gone now., You'd never know they were there now but they were there.

The only time I saw anything intimidating crossing the border could well have been monaghan.I had wanted to visit clones with it being Barry McGuigans home town,we had travelled to that area but five kids and the Mrs were grumbling about the time stuck in the car. We crossed the border somewhere near there and had to drive slowly through a funeral at a church.I did see a police station or army base bristling with spikes like something out of 'mad max' there.

Christy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I can only say my own experiences of the border from the 80s up until present day.I maintain I never saw any unformed soldiers at the border.I crossed the border at various points,not just in one county.
How that puts me out of my depth is a mystery .

Well for one you were at the wrong border or crossing it through the fields...

Any of the main crossings had checkpoints. This just doesn't blend with what actually happened unless you only used the tiny backroads?

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

The only time I saw anything intimidating crossing the border could well have been monaghan.I had wanted to visit clones with it being Barry McGuigans home town,we had travelled to that area but five kids and the Mrs were grumbling about the time stuck in the car. We crossed the border somewhere near there and had to drive slowly through a funeral at a church.I did see a police station or army base bristling with spikes like something out of 'mad max' there.

So a childhood memory of one trip across the border is the foundation of your earlier claim that....

I have never been stopped or even seen uniformed BA soldiers at the border.

Did the border posts not exist?

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

The only time I saw anything intimidating crossing the border could well have been monaghan.I had wanted to visit clones with it being Barry McGuigans home town,we had travelled to that area but five kids and the Mrs were grumbling about the time stuck in the car. We crossed the border somewhere near there and had to drive slowly through a funeral at a church.I did see a police station or army base bristling with spikes like something out of 'mad max' there.

The house Barry built for himself is about half a mile from here...this is just one of the roads into Clones in the 80's and today. Please stop the petty diminishing of what it was Rob.

It certainly explains a lot about why the British don't care about NI or think the border was significant. British politicians at the time understood it, but by now, I guess people have a whitewashed history of it if they didn't personally go through the installations themselves.

Absolutely remarkable.

yagan

Deleted User wrote: »

It certainly explains a lot about why the British don't care about NI or think the border was significant. British politicians at the time understood it, but by now, I guess people have a whitewashed history of it if they didn't personally go through the installations themselves.

Absolutely remarkable.

It's not remarkable, it's agenda pushing.

CelticRambler

To be fair to Rob, he does say:

RobMc59 wrote: »

My wife is from a border county and I have never been stopped by or even seen uniformed BA soldiers at the border.

so it's entirely possible he had the benefit of someone with local knowledge taking him on a route that would avoid the most fortified checkpoints.

I have people come to stay with me in France who could legitimately say they've never heard anyone speaking French while they were here.

volchitsa

RobMc59 wrote: »

I can only say my own experiences of the border from the 80s up until present day.I maintain I never saw any unformed soldiers at the border.I crossed the border at various points,not just in one county.
How that puts me out of my depth is a mystery .

Well I don't know where you crossed the border. You're the only person I've ever heard of (and I grew up in NI and studied in Dublin in the 80s) who knew of legal border crossings that weren't heavily fortified.

Where exactly did you cross the border please? Because I'm familiar with at least six of the ones left after the army blew up the unapproved roads, and they were all pretty much the same: spiked ramps before the checkpoint itself, headlights obligatorily switched off on approach at night, and armed soldiers, including snipers hiding out ready to shoot if there was a problem.

That didn't change until the first ceasefire.

yagan

CelticRambler wrote: »

To be fair to Rob, he does say:



so it's entirely possible he had the benefit of someone with local knowledge taking him on a route that would avoid the most fortified checkpoints.

I have people come to stay with me in France who could legitimately say they've never heard anyone speaking French while they were here.

I knew people near Belturbet who never crossed the border again for the entirety of the troubles after army sappers had blown up their bridge.

volchitsa

CelticRambler wrote: »

To be fair to Rob, he does say:

so it's entirely possible he had the benefit of someone with local knowledge taking him on a route that would avoid the most fortified checkpoints.

I have people come to stay with me in France who could legitimately say they've never heard anyone speaking French while they were here.

That'd be illegal and very dangerous in most parts of Northern Ireland, because the army's assumption back then was generally that anyone using using those illegal crossing points was a terrorist.

(It's not illegal not to speak French in France, I don't think )

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The house Barry built for himself is about half a mile from here...this is just one of the roads into Clones in the 80's and today. Please stop the petty diminishing of what it was Rob.

I never got to visit Clones that time Francie,I did cross the border ,it could have been Monaghan,I'm talking thirty odd years ago.
I'm not trying to diminish anything and I'm telling the truth.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

I never got to visit Clones that time Francie,I did cross the border ,it could have been Monaghan,I'm talking thirty odd years ago.
I'm not trying to diminish anything and I'm telling the truth.

So what? Edwin Poots believe the earth being only a few thousand years old is the truth.

Seth Brundle

Mod: let's move it back to Brexit and away from Rob's border experiences
Below standard posts removed

ancapailldorcha

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Mod: let's move it back to Brexit and away from Rob's border experiences
Below standard posts removed

Off topic posts deleted.

Akrasia

The deadline for applications for settled status is Wednesday and there are still up to 400k applications in the backlog with the system struggling to keep up with the surge in applications

France has announced a 3 month deadline extension for UK citizens living in France, but when the UK's immigration minister Kevin Foster has refused to reciprocate

Many people have been complaining that they cannot get the 'certificate of application' which is a hugely important document that they need to avoid being in breach of UK immigration law as of Thursday 1st of July and being subject to the 'Hostile environment' that deliberately mistreats people who cannot prove their right to be in the UK (the windrush generation know all about this)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/26/hundreds-of-thousands-of-eu-citizens-scrabbling-to-attain-post-brexit-status-before-deadline

Strazdas

Akrasia wrote: »

The deadline for applications for settled status is Wednesday and there are still up to 400k applications in the backlog with the system struggling to keep up with the surge in applications

France has announced a 3 month deadline extension for UK citizens living in France, but when the UK's immigration minister Kevin Foster has refused to reciprocate

Many people have been complaining that they cannot get the 'certificate of application' which is a hugely important document that they need to avoid being in breach of UK immigration law as of Thursday 1st of July and being subject to the 'Hostile environment' that deliberately mistreats people who cannot prove their right to be in the UK (the windrush generation know all about this)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/26/hundreds-of-thousands-of-eu-citizens-scrabbling-to-attain-post-brexit-status-before-deadline

Many EU citizens have said they find the entire process pretty hostile i.e. having to apply for 'permission' to remain in a place they've lived in for years, having moved there legally. They don't think it is neutral or benign and think the purpose is to make them feel unwelcome.

Podge_irl

View wrote: »

I have no idea where you are coming up with the idea that I suggested they are or were lying, so your point is a bit irrelevant.

The reality we face is that, after years of negotiations, we ended up with the current version of the NI protocol. Right now, Brexiters aren’t even pretending to operate that protocol (ie the sea border). There is currently less delay for trucks rolling off the ferries in Belfast than there is for trucks rolling through the toll booths on our motorways. In other words, the protocol is effectively meaningless.

And, if you note, no one is busting a guy to apply sanctions against the U.K. so they will enforce the sea border as per the protocol. We won’t pick a fight over this and no one in the rest of the EU has any incentive to do so if we won’t.That’s the current situation.

Johnson meanwhile is hell bent on allowing hormone laden Australian meat into the U.K. Once any of that meat lands in Britain, it’ll be in NI within a day or two and in trucks over the border into the Republic shortly after that. If British farmers fear that Johnson’s plans will devastate U.K. farms, are we really willing to sacrifice Irish farms because, faced with a U.K. refusal to implement the protocol, we won’t enforce a land border?

The EU have repeatedly emphasised the importance of the GFA. The single market is the most important thing yes, but to suggest the GFA and border in Ireland are not of great importance also is simply wrong. I am utterly sick of people expecting the EU to show their true colours and abandon us "any day now".

Why on earth would they have applied sanctions to the UK? The extensions the UK are requesting do the job just fine as things stand. The UK has not yet diverged on any standards. Trade agreement or not, "hormone laden" beef is not allowed into the UK without a change in their own regulatory environment which has not happened yet.

You don't just go out willy nilly and apply punitive sanctions as the first step in a disagreement. That is just silly.