Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

Elton John giving someone a piece of his mind:

An enraged Elton John has attacked the British government for a “philistine” failure to acknowledge how Brexit has hit touring musicians and performers.

“We’ve been talking to Lord Strasburger about it, and we’ve been talking to Lord Frost, but we didn’t really get anywhere with him,” John said.

“People like me can afford to go to Europe because we can get people to fill in the forms and get visas done, but what makes me crazy is that the entertainment business brings in £111bn a year to this country and we were just tossed away. The fishing industry – which they still ****ed up – brings in £1.4bn. And I’m all for the fishermen, but we’re talking about more than a hundred billion pounds of difference here, and we weren’t even thought about! ‘Oh well, the arts: they don’t matter.’”

Poor fellow obviously didn't get the memo stating that nothing matters in post-Brexit Britain, other than blue passports and the right to do everything ar5eways compared to the rest of the world.

Tyrone212

RURAL AFFAIRS MINISTERS from Scotland and Northern Ireland have written to the UK Government with concerns about the Australia trade deal.

In a joint letter to International Trade Secretary Liz Truss, the two administrations say the deal risks having a disproportionate impact on domestic farmers and producers.

Boris Johnson and his Australian counterpart, Scott Morrison, announced the post-Brexit trade agreement last week.

However UK farmers have expressed fear they could be undercut by meat from Australia.

The Scottish Government’s Rural Affairs Secretary Mairi Gougeon and her Northern Ireland Executive counterpart Edwin Poots have written a joint letter seeking further clarity on the deal.

They are seeking urgent discussions on the deal at a meeting with Defra officials on 28 June.

The letter says: “We have previously stressed to you, and remain extremely concerned following the recent announcement, that the UK Government is signing up to a deal that would lead to a sustained increase in imports of Australian agri-food and produced to lesser standards in relation to animal welfare and future environmental commitments.

“As you know, agriculture and food standards are devolved responsibilities.

“We have been clear that where there is an increase in imports of Australian agri-food, this must be managed by tariff rate quotas that are not eroded over time.”

It continues: “We are also concerned by the size of the quotas which after 15 years equate to 16% of UK beef consumption and 49% of UK sheepmeat consumption.

“Clearly if Australian exports reach anything close to these levels, we can expect a very significant negative impact on our agri-food sector.

“We are not reassured about claims that Australia will not be exporting significant amounts of beef to the UK or is seeking to replace imports from other countries.
“Australia is a very significant beef exporter and has the potential to increase exports further with a view to targeting the UK market.”

They say domestic producers will still be at a disadvantage despite a non-regression clause on animal welfare standards.

The letter states they have “little faith that these concerns are currently being taken seriously”.

PeadarCo

Podge_irl wrote: »

The EU have repeatedly emphasised the importance of the GFA. The single market is the most important thing yes, but to suggest the GFA and border in Ireland are not of great importance also is simply wrong. I am utterly sick of people expecting the EU to show their true colours and abandon us "any day now".

Why on earth would they have applied sanctions to the UK? The extensions the UK are requesting do the job just fine as things stand. The UK has not yet diverged on any standards. Trade agreement or not, "hormone laden" beef is not allowed into the UK without a change in their own regulatory environment which has not happened yet.

You don't just go out willy nilly and apply punitive sanctions as the first step in a disagreement. That is just silly.

Something that has to be remembered is that the UK rejected an extended transition period offered by the EU. So it wouldn't come as a surprise to the EU/or anyone else that extensions are required. The EU won't give unlimited extensions. But limited and relatively short extensions gives room for discussions and also time for the EU to decide on what most appropriate measures to penalise the UK under the trade agreement jointly agreed.

Akrasia

CelticRambler wrote: »

Elton John giving someone a piece of his mind:



Poor fellow obviously didn't get the memo stating that nothing matters in post-Brexit Britain, other than blue passports and the right to do everything ar5eways compared to the rest of the world.

Elton John is one of the good guys in the Brexit fiasco. He has come out against Brexit at every opportunity and he knew it was going to be a disaster

“I am sick to death of politicians, especially British politicians. I am sick to death of Brexit. I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/elton-john-brexit-opinion-concert_uk_5cf0ffefe4b0e8085e383bcb

Christy42

CelticRambler wrote: »

Elton John giving someone a piece of his mind:



Poor fellow obviously didn't get the memo stating that nothing matters in post-Brexit Britain, other than blue passports and the right to do everything ar5eways compared to the rest of the world.

Did he not consider the deal to allow musicians to "tour" Liechtenstein taking care of the arts? The British government seemed pretty proud of that one on twitter.

Strazdas

Akrasia wrote: »

Elton John is one of the good guys in the Brexit fiasco. He has come out against Brexit at every opportunity and he knew it was going to be a disaster

“I am sick to death of politicians, especially British politicians. I am sick to death of Brexit. I am a European. I am not a stupid, colonial, imperialist English idiot.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/elton-john-brexit-opinion-concert_uk_5cf0ffefe4b0e8085e383bcb

He'll be dismissed by them as a "pinkie, leftie, woke Europhile" (but these don't guys don't like anyone really).

RobMc59

PeadarCo wrote: »

Something that has to be remembered is that the UK rejected an extended transition period offered by the EU. So it wouldn't come as a surprise to the EU/or anyone else that extensions are required. The EU won't give unlimited extensions. But limited and relatively short extensions gives room for discussions and also time for the EU to decide on what most appropriate measures to penalise the UK under the trade agreement jointly agreed.

If the UK government has to keep going cap in hand to ask for another extension why would you want to penalise them?They look pretty foolish having to ask and hopefully the UK public will realise this isn't what they voted for.(Although according to recent surveys that fact is probably beginning to dawn on quite a few).

PeadarCo

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the UK government has to keep going cap in hand to ask for another extension why would you want to penalise them?They look pretty foolish having to ask and hopefully the UK public will realise this isn't what they voted for.(Although according to recent surveys that fact is probably beginning to dawn on quite a few).

In the medium to long term the EU will have to impose sanctions as allowed in the trade agreement. The reason for that is if the UK doesn't actually enforce the agreement it makes an absolute mockery of the agreement and it gives access to the EU from the UK that's not allowed under the agreement. Even though in the short term there's no real loss by allowing arbitrary short term extensions where it makes sense. It makes an absolute mockery of Brexit and gives time for the UK to agree to align with more EU standards.


However the longer time goes on the more likely it is that the UK will diverge from EU standards and the less sense extensions make. Extensions are only a short term solution and don't resolve the core issues.

fly_agaric

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the UK government has to keep going cap in hand to ask for another extension why would you want to penalise them?They look pretty foolish having to ask and hopefully the UK public will realise this isn't what they voted for.(Although according to recent surveys that fact is probably beginning to dawn on quite a few).

There's 2 problems facing the EU that grow the longer it goes on. Far from being embarassed the UK government would probably see both of them as positives and an outcome of eternal extensions as a victory.

First the UKs behaviour + no action being taken signals that external parties can really just ignore agreements they make with the EU if it suits, and nothing happens. It helps to undermine the legitimacy of the EU. The UK is quite a large and important country, where it leads and provides an example, others may follow.

The second problem arises when the UK starts to diverge in a serious way from the legacy of EU laws and regulations they are still mainly working under.
The signals from UK govt. are that will happen, it will be in direction of less regulation + lower standards and is just a matter of time.

Then there exists ability for businesses and criminals to take advantage of these differences to the EUs detriment using the NI hole in the external border. Again if that happens and the EU does absolutely nothing, it eats away at its legitmacy as an organisation.

Seth Brundle

Frost is asked for a tangible benefit arising from Brexit that wasn't there five years ago.
He says the ability to change a government or every policy of that government overnight as this wasn't possible for almost 50 years.

https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1409059184998600708

Seth Brundle

CelticRambler wrote: »

Elton John giving someone a piece of his mind:



Poor fellow obviously didn't get the memo stating that nothing matters in post-Brexit Britain, other than blue passports and the right to do everything ar5eways compared to the rest of the world.

(A normally very articulate) Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden echoes Elton JOhn's concerns over the challenges facing UK acts to tour in the EU...

https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1409443643371438083

ancapailldorcha

I couldn't care less what he says. He voted for this when the potential issues were known but that didn't stop him.

Seth Brundle

Another Brexit loss, this time in the area of science funding with the UK losing about €400 million (£345 million) of Horizon funding in 2020 than it did in 2016. In total, this equates so far to about £1.5 billion.
Given Johnson wanted to sell the UK as a science superpower, that is yet another hole to fill from their finite budget.

The UK’s scientists have missed out on £1.5 billion in Horizon 2020 funds since the country voted to leave the EU in 2016. Campaigners say that the figures reveal the extent to which Brexit uncertainty damaged collaborations between UK researchers and their colleagues across Europe.

UK share of Horizon 2020 funds dropped £1.5bn since Brexit vote

Seth Brundle

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I couldn't care less what he says. He voted for this when the potential issues were known but that didn't stop him.

Oh I agree and was disgusted with him when I first heard his pro-Brexit nonsense.
It is interesting that he is now critical of how Brexit is going (now that it is affecting him).
Plus, he does hold a fair bit of influence given the number of fans the band has.

Sam Russell

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Frost is asked for a tangible benefit arising from Brexit that wasn't there five years ago.
He says the ability to change a government or every policy of that government overnight as this wasn't possible for almost 50 years.

https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1409059184998600708

I suppose leaving the EU is not an overnight change that affects every level of Britain.

He sees greater choice and lower prices as a result of Brexit. Maybe he needs to do some shopping in the supermarkets and spot the empty shelves - or listen to all the businesses that are suffering from privations that are directly traceable to Brexit.

Again, he is not (in the clip) being asked to justify his myopic vision of Brexit. He is obviously not impacted in the way many farmers, fishermen, or cheesemakers, have been or in fact the way anyone in business has.

ancapailldorcha

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Oh I agree and was disgusted with him when I first heard his pro-Brexit nonsense.
It is interesting that he is now critical of how Brexit is going (now that it is affecting him).
Plus, he does hold a fair bit of influence given the number of fans the band has.

Exactly. Fine for thee but not for me. Iron Maiden and their licenced pilot frontman will be fine.

I doubt he has that much influence on political matters to be honest. If someone is going to support Brexit, the usual maxims involving metropolitan elites just get trotted out.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

I suppose leaving the EU is not an overnight change that affects every level of Britain.

He sees greater choice and lower prices as a result of Brexit. Maybe he needs to do some shopping in the supermarkets and spot the empty shelves - or listen to all the businesses that are suffering from privations that are directly traceable to Brexit.

Again, he is not (in the clip) being asked to justify his myopic vision of Brexit. He is obviously not impacted in the way many farmers, fishermen, or cheesemakers, have been or in fact the way anyone in business has.

One of the Guardian writers had an article about him last week, describing him as an ideological fantasist with his own particular 'vision' for Brexit. These type of guys are dangerous though. Usually not particularly intelligent and not interested in things like evidence or facts.

embraer170

Seth Brundle wrote: »

(A normally very articulate) Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden echoes Elton JOhn's concerns over the challenges facing UK acts to tour in the EU...

https://twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1409443643371438083

The guy voted for Brexit. What on earth did he expect?!

Capt'n Midnight

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Another Brexit loss, this time in the area of science funding with the UK losing about €400 million (£345 million) of Horizon funding in 2020 than it did in 2016. In total, this equates so far to about £1.5 billion.
Given Johnson wanted to sell the UK as a science superpower, that is yet another hole to fill from their finite budget.

UK share of Horizon 2020 funds dropped £1.5bn since Brexit vote

But there is this promise ?

This government plans to put its money where its mouth is as it talks about plans to reinforce the UK's position as a global science leader.

It aims to increase research spending from nearly £15bn a year to £22bn by 2025.

Then again it may be more soundbites or maybe monies earmarked for the chumocracy.

Also the £4bn cuts to foreign aid aren't going down well so they may have to go to the magic money tree.

ancapailldorcha

embraer170 wrote: »

The guy voted for Brexit. What on earth did he expect?!

Same thing as most of them. That the consequences would only be felt by other people.

pixelburp

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Frost is asked for a tangible benefit arising from Brexit that wasn't there five years ago.
He says the ability to change a government or every policy of that government overnight as this wasn't possible for almost 50 years.

https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1409059184998600708

And once again, what angers and deflates in equal measure is how, for the umpteenth time, what is overtly waffle and verbal diarrhoea of the highest order goes unchallenged. I know nothing of the interviewer and maybe this was an agreed puff-piece or hagiographic item - still though. All the lies, all the garbage spouted, remains unchecked so those failing upwards can continue to sell a pup to the English public.

Joe_ Public

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

But there is this promise ?Then again it may be more soundbites or maybe monies earmarked for the chumocracy.

Also the £4bn cuts to foreign aid aren't going down well so they may have to go to the magic money tree.

Curious as to where they get the £15bn figure quoted in that article. Are they talking about the same thing? The annual budget for research and innovation is around £8bn and a cut was announced in the recent budget. The uk was i believe the biggest net recipient of the Horizon programme (and probably fair enough given the excellence of its universities, one area it can properly brag about) but from next year it will cost them £2bn to partake in the new Horizon Europe scheme and, as you point out, the cut in overseas aid is going to have a crippling effect on many of their existing and proposed research projects.

Strazdas

embraer170 wrote: »

The guy voted for Brexit. What on earth did he expect?!

Except nobody ever even defined what "Brexit" was. People voted for 5000 different versions of Brexit, depending on which crank or charlatan they had listened to before casting their vote. This is the real reason it could only but fail : nobody can even agree what Brexit means.

druss

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Same thing as most of them. That the consequences would only be felt by other people.

And with an added dose of ignoring current music economics.

Album and single sales aren't making people rich to the same extent. Touring economics is where it's at. Anything which reduces complexity and increases freedom of movement should be a no-brainer for musicians.

ancapailldorcha

druss wrote: »

And with an added dose of ignoring current music economics.

Album and single sales aren't making people rich to the same extent. Touring economics is where it's at. Anything which reduces complexity and increases freedom of movement should be a no-brainer for musicians.

You would think but when you're a wealthy incumbent with global fame then you can afford to prioritise your own petty cultural concerns and obsessions over the welfare of your less affluent contemporaries.

He mentions executing Brexit with common sense but the whole thing is founded on expedience and prevarication. The adults were never going to take charge of the thing.

CelticRambler

Seth Brundle wrote: »

(A normally very articulate) Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden echoes Elton JOhn's concerns over the challenges facing UK acts to tour in the EU...

"I voted for Brexit ... the idea is, after you've done it, you then go in and be sensible"

There's your problem Bruce: "Brexit" and "sensible" are mutually incompatible concepts. Be careful what you wish vote for. :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

I noticed this on Twitter - is this correct?
I'm aware that before the Transition period ended, there were forecasts of shortages with some pharma products. Is there a shortage now or is it simply just this user's pharmacy ran short?

https://twitter.com/fbpe_marco/status/1409120439201415168

ambro25

Strazdas wrote: »

Many EU citizens have said they find the entire process pretty hostile i.e. having to apply for 'permission' to remain in a place they've lived in for years, having moved there legally. They don't think it is neutral or benign and think the purpose is to make them feel unwelcome.

EUSS-registered or not, just you wait until they start experiencing British life post-1st July, between the street-level enforcement by employers, landlords, NHS surgeries and more, and official enforcement by local Border forces (Patel has directed pro-active HMBF visits to employers to start from 1st July, with any ‘irregulars’ found, given 28 days to apply to EUSS else be removed).

I’ve consistently told any EU27inUK who would listen, for the last 4-5 years, that this was coming down to them, and likely sooner and harder than they’d imagine.

Brace for the anger, real and ‘merely’ political, to get notched up a fair few pegs on the back of it. The Tories need a belligerent EU, and this is the surest way of achieving it.

CelticRambler

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I noticed this on Twitter - is this correct?
I'm aware that before the Transition period ended, there were forecasts of shortages with some pharma products. Is there a shortage now or is it simply just this user's pharmacy ran short?

According to the (Irish) Health Products Regulatory Authority (HPRA):

Propafenone hydrochloride 300mg Tablet
PA2315/116/002
Propafenone hydrochloride
Manufacturing delays (multiple countries affected)

Probably more of a Covid thing, as the drug may be used to treat the cardiac problems associated with severe infection.

redcup342

ambro25 wrote: »

EUSS-registered or not, just you wait until they start experiencing British life post-1st July, between the street-level enforcement by employers, landlords, NHS surgeries and more, and official enforcement by local Border forces (Patel has directed pro-active HMBF visits to employers to start from 1st July, with any ‘irregulars’ found, given 28 days to apply to EUSS else be removed).

I’ve consistently told any EU27inUK who would listen, for the last 4-5 years, that this was coming down to them, and likely sooner and harder than they’d imagine.

Brace for the anger, real and ‘merely’ political, to get notched up a fair few pegs on the back of it. The Tories need a belligerent EU, and this is the surest way of achieving it.

Immigration authorities (Border force or whatever) are horrible to deal with any any country.

In the resent months the German expat facebook groups are filled with complaints of how slow, complicated and unnecessary the process is with the Auslanderamt.

Followed by posts from Third country nationals saying "welcome to the club"

It's all siloed as well, in the Spanish, Dutch and Belgian fb groups they are all complaining about a service thats always been that way. They have just never dealt with it before so their experience of it not matter how good is it, is going to be terrible.

INIS in Ireland are completely rubbish as well imo, not their fault. It's just a very poorly funded service (everywhere) because the users can't vote and the workers have a job for life.

Or in the case of the Netherlands they've outsourced the work so some guy with very little experience on a zero hour contract could be deciding if you are granted permission to remain or permission to work.

There is no hostility, just people that never had to interact with these services before are only experiencing them now.