Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719490#Comment_117719490

I think you make a good point about how the leave campaign have managed to associate being anti brexit/pro EU with being anti British. It's something remainers/soft Brexiters have never really got to grips with from a messaging point of view. Even on this thread poster's have been accused of being anti British for being critical of the UK government's approach to Brexit.

The thing is, there is no good reason for that association per say, look at Ireland for example. From my point of view it has being a huge failing of the remain/soft Brexit campaign that they have allowed hard Brexit to have complete control of the narrative around this particular aspect.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117720018#Comment_117720018

One of the reasons they've gotten away with it is that they managed to portray anyone critical of or opposed to the referendum result as "undemocratic" and "anti-British".

I'm not sure there is any other example in the western world in the last century of a mere referendum result being hijacked by plainly bad people and used to practically upend the entire political system. It's bordering on a coup.

Larbre34

Well, you know how democracy usually dies mate. To thunderous applause.

McGiver

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117719490#Comment_117719490

Yes, they won't but not only because of the press, it's embedded in the English culture - they don't apologise or self reflect. Both the English people as well as the English elites have very little self-reflection or ability of admitting a fault.

English elites for example never apologised for any colonial excesses. If they couldn't do that why anyone expects them to reconsider Brexit... The right wing press only supports these traits. But the issue runs deeper, in my opinion.

For example - The Queen while visiting the infamous 1919 Amritsar massacre (1000 unarmed peaceful civilians shot dead by the British army) place in India was able to generate only the following waffle with a good dose of the good ole' Great British preaching

It is no secret that there have been some difficult episodes in our past – Jallianwala Bagh, which I shall visit tomorrow, is a distressing example. But history cannot be rewritten, however much we might sometimes wish otherwise. It has its moments of sadness, as well as gladness. We must learn from the sadness and build on the gladness.

Ironically, Cameron came very close to an apology for this particular incident...

Seth Brundle

Apparently the UK Home Office is being taken to court for breaching conditions of the Withdrawl Agreement concerning the right of dependants of EU citizens residing in the UK

The Withdrawal Agreement states that extended family members who are “dependents or members of the household” of an EU citizen living in the U.K. will retain their right to reside in Britain. To do so, applicants needed to apply for a permit, known as an EEA Family Permit, by December 31, 2020 and arrive by the end of June 2021.

Several letters, sent by the Home Office and seen by POLITICO, inform people who say they have relatives in the country that they cannot come to the U.K., despite applying in plenty of time. In each of the 10 letters, the family members’ applications were initially rejected by the Home Office but later successfully appealed.

The Home Office then wrote to the applicants to inform them that although their appeal was successful, they would still be unable to come because the deadline for this process had now passed.

Given the recent outcome of Emma de Souza's case which was an embarrassment for the HO, I'm surprised that the HO are gunning for another beating.

https://www.politico.eu/article/u-k-home-office-to-be-taken-to-court-over-family-permit-refusals

Nody

People I'm here to announce with great joy the first Brexit victories!

First of all UK government will not implement an additional form VI-1 for wine imports; of course it was a UK proposed change in the first place after Brexit but clearly a Brexit win! Secondly; in the wine & beer industry in the UK because it's such a pain in the .... to import the online stores that used to provide cheaper prices can't be bothered to try to sell into UK. Hence retailers lose some online competition.

Now here comes some more great Brexit "removal of red tape" news. To be allowed to sell organic wines, as well organic, all retailers will need to become organic importers by signing up to an local organic organization. And as it is well known tapped wine in bottles with corks/screws is renowned for it's ability to leak through glass into other bottles they will need separate shipping. Yes people you read it here first; UK scientists have confirmed if you transport non organic and organic wine bottles in the same truck they can intermingle and all of the wine becomes non organic. The white paper is still pending but will soon be released once the additional flags have been added to every page to make sure it's a properly Brexitly report.

As for transports there's great Brexit news there as well. It used to be the import timeline used to be 1 - 5 days; but in Brexit gains this has now increased to 3 - 5 weeks instead. Of course this is great news because higher stock levels = more warehousing = more rent to the Brexit overlords so clearly a benefit for all of UK.

This was brought to you by the her Majesties department of Sarcasm.

Seth Brundle

And as it is well known tapped wine in bottles with corks/screws is renowned for it's ability to leak through glass into other bottles they will need separate shipping. Yes people you read it here first; UK scientists have confirmed if you transport non organic and organic wine bottles in the same truck they can intermingle and all of the wine becomes non organic. The white paper is still pending but will soon be released once the additional flags have been added to every page to make sure it's a properly Brexitly report.

...presumably then if organic wine can't be shipped in mixed containers then it also cannot be sold alongside non-organic wine?

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117723466#Comment_117723466

I'm sure you know the answer to that already 😃 but the twitter thread in Nody's post does point out (in #22 of his #25 points) that no, once it goes retail there is no longer any prohibition on them being on the shelf together.

It's possibly not the devastating point he thinks though - I'm sure there's lot's of examples of products which can't be transported long distances together but then end up in the same corner shop. Though it's hard to make a case for why different types bottled/corked wine would be such an issue.

Seth Brundle

I'm sure you know the answer to that already 😃 but the twitter thread in Nody's post does point out (in #22 of his #25 points) that no, once it goes retail there is no longer any prohibition on them being on the shelf together.

I hadn't opened the link. I tried the second Twitter link which doesn't work, but didn't try the first.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727340#Comment_117727340

AFAIK, the British government is still refusing to modify its skillset data for working visas to incentivise EU27 drivers back to the UK…and then:

https://kierowcyhgv.uk/en/news/2221-polish-truck-driver-deported-for-illegally-traveling-to-work-in-england

As always, you’ve no hope of helping people who don’t want to help themselves to start with.

So. Notionally, that’s 2000 HGV drivers who, hopefully for British residents and their stomachs, aren’t TA reservists spending their civilian time already driving HGVs for a living.

What’s the B-plan about the balance of 98,000 (est.) missing HGV drivers?

ancapailldorcha

Would it make a difference though? How many people still see Britain as an attractive destination if they can access France and Germany visa-free?

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727649#Comment_117727649

Anecdotally, that Polish driver story shows there is some EU27 supply to meet that British demand for HGV drivers, and the currently-rocketing pay packages can only enhance the attraction.

France and Germany also have driver shortages, but nowhere near on the scale of the UK I think, and so the pay packages (and differential in income taxation, UK is lower) wouldn’t be as attractive.

Ultimately however, given the sheer scale of the problem, no, I don’t think it would make much of a difference…when drivers are desperately required, and very short-term at that.

It’s a similar situation of long-gestating, and now fast-aggregating, crisis-building issues, with no easy nor fast fix(es), to FDI in the UK, lastly illustrated by the Hitachi example brought up by the North East’s Chamber of Commerce CEO this morning (Hitachi bought land in the UK to build 3 factories and manufacture trains for the EU market…now there’s a single factory on it, and train-manufacturing is done in Italy instead).

FDI to the UK receded to less than nothing in the last few years and particularly in the last 2, between COVID and Johnson’s Canadian Brexit, and it is going to take some years (medium term at least, I think) to bootstrap it again, for it to have any positive uplift on the British socio-economic context at large.

In the meantime, rippling socio-economic consequences continue to unfold (and mount, and cumulate), irrespective of their prediction 5 years ago or longer.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117727710#Comment_117727710

Jakub, the man in that story, had previously lived in the UK for 6 years (so likely had good English) and had family living there. So there was a certain attraction there for him (+ the wages presumably). All of which may have encouraged him to jump through the hoops of paperwork and visas.

But a lot of that won't apply to Polish people emigrating for work for the first time. Germany/France would look a safer bet.

Leroy42

A solution will be found to the driver shortage, in the short term it will most likely be costly and probably go against many of the demands of the people who voted for Brexit. And any solution will, at best, get things back to the way they were previously but with added costs and hassle, but it will be sold, like the trade deals, as a benefit.

But what it highlights, yet again, is how totally unprepared and unplanned the whole thing has been. Everyday it seems there is another 'surprise' that was completely foreseeable (to people that had a clue).

It certainly doesn't bode well for this all being a positive for the UK. One can argue whether it could ever be, but with such a lack of planning the chance of being able to harness any potential seems unlikely.

BluePlanet

Vodafone to re-introduce Roaming charges:

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/vodafone-ee-brexit-roaming-charges-phone-networks-b1899430.html

Brexit, just keeps on delivering doesn't it.

listermint

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117728464#Comment_117728464

But those sorts of changes were project fear front and center. And would never happen....

Kermit.de.frog

SNIP.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Soapboxing post edited and responses deleted.

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117729040#Comment_117729040

Searching for examples of kleptocracies puts the UK and Ireland in the top twenty in the world

The Raging Bile Duct

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733230#Comment_117733230

Where are you getting this from?

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733473#Comment_117733473

Wonder if this is their source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index

Ireland and the UK are in the top twenty, but not in the way the poster thinks....

The Raging Bile Duct

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733539#Comment_117733539

Yeah, that is the complete opposite of what he means. He must have it arse above tit.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733230#Comment_117733230

Gotta say that's not what I get when I google "examples of kleptocracies".

Transparency International does publish an annual "Corruption Perception Index" in which the UK and Ireland both feature in the top twenty. But as the index is ranked from best to worst, that makes them among the 20 least corrupt countries in the world, not the twenty most corrupt countries. Maybe that confused you a little bit, Rob?

blackcard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733539#Comment_117733539

Yes. It is the exact opposite of what he is saying

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117733555#Comment_117733555

No,they are in the top twenty LEAST corrupt nations which rather dispells the assertion Britain is a corrupt nation.I mentioned Ireland as the UK is also in the same bracket as them.

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734181#Comment_117734181

Any search of `corrupt countries` clearly puts the UK amongst the countries least corrupt. I`ve reported you for trolling as your unsubstantiated claims are getting beyond a joke.

Notmything

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734473#Comment_117734473

The wording of your post, imo, gave the impression that the UK and Ireland were in the top twenty corrupt countries rather than in the top twenty least.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734473#Comment_117734473

Do you read any news?

Raab approves a non-trading company (with articles of association copied from a pizza delivery firm) to provide shipping from a closed silted up port, with not a single ship in its fleet, and awards them a huge Gov contract with no competition - so not corrupt. But then he did not understand the Dover was not far from Calais - so not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

The Covid PPE contracts awarded to many companies whose business was, for example, wholesale sweets - and no usable PPE provided to NHS - not corrupt.

NHS track and trace cost GB£37 billion - for no marginal benefit - so not corrupt.

The health Minister, who resigned in disgrace awarded his mistress a contract of £1,000 per day consultancy job - so not corrupt. He was involved in other matters that might require significant investigation, but he is running for the hills with his new found mistress and so cannot be got at - so not corrupt.

Former PM Cameron was paid consultancy fees of millions to phone his mates in Gov for favours for his new mates. - so not corrupt.

Then the newly appointed Lord who the very next day donated £500,000 to the Tory party - so not corrupt.

I think the report you are quoting is looking at times before the current bunch of kleptomaniacs got their fingers in the Gov till. Let us see what they make of the last two years of a PM lying to the Queen, usurping the HofC power, and many other antics.

RobMc59

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734659#Comment_117734659

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734545#Comment_117734545

Admittedly I could have worded my original post better but I maintain that a search of corrupt countries cites the UK amongst the least corrupt and that is on multiple sites.I`ve posted a link to the apparently highly regarded world population review from this year.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/least-corrupt-countries

moon2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117734718#Comment_117734718

That uses pre-brexit data as its sole data source. You can confirm it yourself by looking at the source listed on the page. It can't be used to confirm nor refute the claims that the UK government has been acting corruptly post-brexit.

The list of corrupt acts shared by a previous posted is fairly irrefutable evidence of the increasing corruptness of the UK government though. (Edit: though I believe some of the examples listed did occur prior to brexit taking effect)