Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

hotmail.com

CelticRambler wrote: »

Brexit was not driven by the UK media - it was a bloodless coup led by the unelected Nigel Farage and his band of merry Brexiteers, with moral support from the loopy wing of the Tory party, funded by funny money from parties and persons with a decidedly Russian accent, all carried out in a country with a dodgy electoral system that allows for minority rule.

Any business that bases its operation on trade with such an unstable state should be prepared to change fairly quickly; but in this case, there was plenty of warning of what was coming - the Irish diplomatic corps got into gear on the subject back in 2015.

So yes, by all means keep an eye on the press, but public opinion can be swayed overnight, and back again the following week. It's fundamental politics that really counts.

A democratic vote was a bloodless coup now?

Your point ignores the obvious.. The Brits never liked Europe. It's part of their culture to be weary or even anti European.

It's not a big shock that they voted out of the EU if you bothered to look beyond Nigel Farage.

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

A democratic vote was a bloodless coup now?

Your point ignores the obvious.. The Brits never liked Europe. It's part of their culture to be weary or even anti European.

It's not a big shock that they voted out of the EU if you bothered to look beyond Nigel Farage.

52/48 screams foregone conclusion

BonnieSituation

hotmail.com wrote: »

No bump for the UUP given they have the Health portfolio.

It looks like Nationalists going to Alliance and Unionists going to TUV.

Surely it's time for Sinn Fein and the SDLP to merge.

Why?

That's quite the extrapolation from that poll.

20silkcut

hotmail.com wrote: »

A democratic vote was a bloodless coup now?

Your point ignores the obvious.. The Brits never liked Europe. It's part of their culture to be weary or even anti European.

It's not a big shock that they voted out of the EU if you bothered to look beyond Nigel Farage.

They delayed and dragged their feet about finishing the motorway to Dover in the 60’s a sort of post war hangover of fear of invasion . Long after motorways had been extended to all corners of Britain. Only finished it when the traffic became unbearable in the 70’s. And the euro tunnel was in the pipeline since 1964 only completed in 1994 when Euroscepticism was at a low ebb.
It would never have been built today IMO.

Hurrache

Hurrache wrote: »

Brexit was also driven by the UK media, and still is.

You mean the people who own the UK media, the media does what its paymasters demand.

listermint

20silkcut wrote: »

They delayed and dragged their feet about finishing the motorway to Dover in the 60’s a sort of post war hangover of fear of invasion . Long after motorways had been extended to all corners of Britain. Only finished it when the traffic became unbearable in the 70’s. And the euro tunnel was in the pipeline since 1964 only completed in 1994 when Euroscepticism was at a low ebb.
It would never have been built today IMO.

Have you got any information to back up this quite odd viewpoint?

listermint

[Deleted User] wrote: »

You mean the people who own the UK media, the media does what its paymasters demand.

Yes which are hard right Tories. It's owned by a handful of Tory donors

ancapailldorcha

listermint wrote: »

Yes which are hard right Tories. It's owned by a handful of Tory donors

They're not Tories. They're just lobbying the Tory party as that's their most likely vehicle for implementation of their agenda. Remember, they backed Blair not so long ago.

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

A democratic vote was a bloodless coup now?

Your point ignores the obvious.. The Brits never liked Europe. It's part of their culture to be weary or even anti European.

It's not a big shock that they voted out of the EU if you bothered to look beyond Nigel Farage.

Its almost of it the problem never really was the EU, more that the UK could never feel comfortable sharing with others, and then continue to hark back to the days of empire.

So all this talk about if only the EU did this, if only they did that. Its all rubbish. The UK were never going to happy unti lthey got 100% they're own way.

tubercolossus

sondagefaux wrote: »

There are 11 countries in the CPTPP trade agreement:
Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore, Vietnam.

Is this the start of Britain's leadership of 'a 22 nation bloc', as fondly imagined by Lord Hannan???

hotmail.com

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its almost of it the problem never really was the EU, more that the UK could never feel comfortable sharing with others, and then continue to hark back to the days of empire.

So all this talk about if only the EU did this, if only they did that. Its all rubbish. The UK were never going to happy unti lthey got 100% they're own way.

The problem was that they stayed out of the EU at the beginning and so the EU was created to benefit the original member states in particular Germany and France. Britain was never able to catch up and get on board with it even after they joined.

Regarding the empire theory, if anything the move for Brexit is anti empire.

Britain, England and Wales really, want to create an independent free country. They are not looking for a re-emergence of the empire, as many believe in Ireland. Since 1945, the British have been opposed to the empire, happy to see the back of it. They even allowed a Scottish independence referendum in 2014. They are not clinging on to colonies or seeking the return of them.

They would be happy to allow Northern Ireland leave the Kingdom.

There are many misunderstandings and stereotypes of British attitudes in Ireland.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

The problem was that they stayed out of the EU at the beginning and so the EU was created to benefit the original member states in particular Germany and France. Britain was never able to catch up and get on board with it even after they joined.

Regarding the empire theory, if anything the move for Brexit is anti empire.

Britain, England and Wales really, want to create an independent free country. They are not looking for a re-emergence of the empire, as many believe in Ireland. Since 1945, the British have been opposed to the empire, happy to see the back of it. They even allowed a Scottish independence referendum in 2014. They are not clinging on to colonies or seeking the return of them.

This is ridiculous. When they've bothered, they've been able to shape the EU to their will. They were the main force in advancing the single market under the Delors Commission. Leading the EU was always something the British could have done but chose not to.

They've always been an independent free country. This sophistry simply refuses to die. If they weren't, they couldn't have had a referendum and left. The paradox is ignored as much as it is obvious.

British conservatives spent decades shutting down any criticism of the Empire and avoiding compromise. 1945 Britain was an overextended mess which needed to rebuild itself and wasn't capable of suppressing resistance to its exploitation of its extra-European holdings so the Empire just fell apart. It's part of the reason that the Commonwealth exists. Part of the British establishment desperately long to feel like Britannia rules the waves but this is an absurd fantasy that had been debunked before the war due to the rise of the USA. All the war did was catalyse a readjustment of world power.

It's not in the nature of the British nationalist to accept defeat so we see the sort of weak revisionism you've presented here. It was the same when the Thirteen colonies broke away. There's a stink of English exceptionalism in the Tory party so unfortunately Imperialism seems to be alive and well though thankfully confined to that party.

And Indyref was permitted based on polling showing it would fail. The coalition allowed it so it could be shelved down the line.

The British have traditionally enjoyed vast reserves of soft power. They could always have led the EU away from protectionism but just didn't bother. They instead chose to use it as a scapegoat while the seething oligarchs resented any attempt to be made to pay tax so they spent decades vilifying it. The average Brexit voter might have thought they were taking back control but all they were doing was allowing the elites to abandon the merest pretence of having to govern for anyone other than themselves.

RobMc59

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is ridiculous. When they've bothered, they've been able to shape the EU to their will. They were the main force in advancing the single market under the Delors Commission. Leading the EU was always something the British could have done but chose not to.

They've always been an independent free country. This sophistry simply refuses to die. If they weren't, they couldn't have had a referendum and left. The paradox is ignored as much as it is obvious.

British conservatives spent decades shutting down any criticism of the Empire and avoiding compromise. 1945 Britain was an overextended mess which needed to rebuild itself and wasn't capable of suppressing resistance to its exploitation of its extra-European holdings so the Empire just fell apart. It's part of the reason that the Commonwealth exists. Part of the British establishment desperately long to feel like Britannia rules the waves but this is an absurd fantasy that had been debunked before the war due to the rise of the USA. All the war did was catalyse a readjustment of world power.

It's not in the nature of the British nationalist to accept defeat so we see the sort of weak revisionism you've presented here. It was the same when the Thirteen colonies broke away. There's a stink of English exceptionalism in the Tory party so unfortunately Imperialism seems to be alive and well though thankfully confined to that party.

And Indyref was permitted based on polling showing it would fail. The coalition allowed it so it could be shelved down the line.

The British have traditionally enjoyed vast reserves of soft power. They could always have led the EU away from protectionism but just didn't bother. They instead chose to use it as a scapegoat while the seething oligarchs resented any attempt to be made to pay tax so they spent decades vilifying it. The average Brexit voter might have thought they were taking back control but all they were doing was allowing the elites to abandon the merest pretence of having to govern for anyone other than themselves.

If the British are as bad as many here like to say,what does that say about the EU if they were ready to be lead by Britain which you claim couldn't be bothered alot of the time?
Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

swampgas

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the British are as bad as many here like to say,what does that say about the EU if they were ready to be lead by Britain which you claim couldn't be bothered alot of the time?
Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

Hah - the UK has certainly followed the US into a lot of wars.

The UK haven't always been pantomime villains, they have contributed a lot to the EU in the past, but unfortunately more recently the UK has been trying to undermine and damage the EU. And that's just not on, frankly, from an EU perspective.

The whole "leader" vs "follower" mindset is part of the problem. The UK doesn't seem to know how to be a team player. If they're not in charge they feel that they are somehow being subjugated. It's a very deep-rooted problem, possibly related to the hostile and antagonistic nature of British politics. They can't imagine that anyone else might have a different, and dare I say better, way of working.

FrancieBrady

I know it's Ray Basset, but has anyone seen where this 'spokesperson' made this statement?

https://twitter.com/ray_basssett/status/1356274286584098818

Nate--IRL--

An enlightening (and Long) interview with Phillip Hammond around his perspective of Brexit happenings while he was in Government. I found it interesting, although I can't help think he's indulging in a bit of revisionism toward his role in everything.

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/brexit-witness-archive/philip-hammond/

Nate

Brussels Sprout

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Immediate Brexit consequences in NI, as Alliance gain, and unionists desert the DUP for Jim Allister's TUV:

They were formed as a result of the fact that Allister though that the DUP were too moderate. That is grim.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the British are as bad as many here like to say,what does that say about the EU if they were ready to be lead by Britain which you claim couldn't be bothered alot of the time?
Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

Is there anything that AnCapaillDorcha states in their post that you disagree with or would like to correct?

I ask, because this post is pure whataboutery.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the British are as bad as many here like to say,what does that say about the EU if they were ready to be lead by Britain which you claim couldn't be bothered alot of the time?
Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

Rob, I actually applaud you for that. As an exercise in twisting every which way to always come out on top, it is exceptional.

EU was a basket case because it let the basket case that is the UK to be a central member.

But also, the real reason why the UK had to leave the EU was that they had lost all sovereignty and were controlled by the EU!!

There is actually no way to counter both those arguments at the same time.

But its your last sentence that actually gets us to the knub of the issue. Yes, the UK used to be a leader, but the world changed. Now to be a leader they had to join with others. And ultimately the UK don't like that. They need to feel as if they are in charge.

And that is why the vaccine news is so welcome. It places the UK at the front again. After years of feeling they couldn't suddenly, through a serious of gambles, they are back on top. This is all they ever wanted. For the world to acknowledge that they are better than everyone else.

Being part of EU means having to share in the spoils, and there is little to be gained from that.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the British are as bad as many here like to say,what does that say about the EU if they were ready to be lead by Britain which you claim couldn't be bothered alot of the time?
Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

This is all very 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. However a better analogy is the UK being the smaller bully peering around the bigger bully's back and shaking his fist - the bigger bully being the US, of course.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

If the British are as bad as many here like to say,what does that say about the EU if they were ready to be lead by Britain which you claim couldn't be bothered alot of the time?
Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

This is all very 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. However a better analogy is the UK being the smaller bully peering around the bigger bully's back and shaking his fist - the bigger bully being the US, of course.

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

Whether its popular to admit it here or not, Britain has always been a leader,not a follower.

... until now. Enjoy being a satellite - this learning experience will be amusing.

RobMc59

tubercolossus wrote: »

This is all very 'my dad's bigger than your dad'. However a better analogy is the UK being the smaller bully peering around the bigger bully's back and shaking his fist - the bigger bully being the US, of course.

The only organisation or country trying to throw its weight around is the EU and thankfully they quickly realised they had made a mistake.What is jawdropping and equally hilarious is the way all and sundry here have been trying to sweep it under the carpet as if it had never happened.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

The only organisation or country trying to throw its weight around is the EU and thankfully they quickly realised they had made a mistake.What is jawdropping and equally hilarious is the way all and sundry here have been trying to sweep it under the carpet as if it had never happened.

Care to explain what's being swept under the carpet?

Silent Running

RobMc59 wrote: »

The only organisation or country trying to throw its weight around is the EU and thankfully they quickly realised they had made a mistake.What is jawdropping and equally hilarious is the way all and sundry here have been trying to sweep it under the carpet as if it had never happened.

Honestly, like a lot of your posts, all I see going on here is you being a wind up merchant. You seem to be deliberately trying to extract a reaction by posting stuff that you must know is pure rubbish.

No-one here swept anything under the carpet. Many posters acknowledged that it was an error by the EU. What's refreshing is that the EU called it as an error and rectified it immediately. If only the UK side could own up to their Brexit errors, and rectify same.

But alas we are where we are.

RobMc59

Silent Running wrote: »

Honestly, like a lot of your posts, all I see going on here is you being a wind up merchant. You seem to be deliberately trying to extract a reaction by posting stuff that you must know is pure rubbish.

No-one here swept anything under the carpet. Many posters acknowledged that it was an error by the EU. What's refreshing is that the EU called it as an error and rectified it immediately. If only the UK side could own up to their Brexit errors, and rectify same.

But alas we are where we are.

I appreciate that as an Irish forum frequented by posters who rarely see anything brussels does as worrying or overly intrusive, the general consensus is unlikely to agree with a British viewpoint.I believe if you`re going to criticise others you`ve got to be squeeky clean yourself which clearly is`nt the case here.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

I appreciate that as an Irish forum frequented by posters who rarely see anything brussels does as worrying or overly intrusive, the general consensus is unlikely to agree with a British viewpoint.I believe if you`re going to criticise others you`ve got to be squeeky clean yourself which clearly is`nt the case here.

That's not the issue here. The issue is you continually distorting events, adding your own highly-partisan spin and forever levelling accusations and making assertions that you can never back up with actual facts.

That's the issue. Your persistent bad faith.

Silent Running

RobMc59 wrote: »

I appreciate that as an Irish forum frequented by posters who rarely see anything brussels does as worrying or overly intrusive, the general consensus is unlikely to agree with a British viewpoint.I believe if you`re going to criticise others you`ve got to be squeeky clean yourself which clearly is`nt the case here.

The reality is that most of us would dearly love to have some Brexit types come in here and debate properly, you know... Point out anything positive about Brexit. All we seem to get are posters that roll off a load of Brexit soundbites, Tory rag headlines and quips about being controlled by "Brussels".

Any time you have been asked to back up your statements, you just ignore it and press on with the baiting and whataboutery.

Please, please bring on something positive about Brexit so it can be debated openly.

Maybe it's time for me to unsubscribe from this thread. The waiting for proper debate seems to be fruitless.

RobMc59

tubercolossus wrote: »

That's not the issue here. The issue is you continually distorting events, adding your own highly-partisan spin and forever levelling accusations and making assertions that you can never back up with actual facts.

That's the issue. Your persistent bad faith.

I disagree with your opinion but can see where this is heading if I continue to put my point of view forward.

PeadarCo

RobMc59 wrote: »

I appreciate that as an Irish forum frequented by posters who rarely see anything brussels does as worrying or overly intrusive, the general consensus is unlikely to agree with a British viewpoint.I believe if you`re going to criticise others you`ve got to be squeeky clean yourself which clearly is`nt the case here.

Which would mean the UK hasn't a leg to stand on. You are talking about a government that introduced legislation that threatened to rip up an agreement that was only a few months old. The UK government acknowledged this in Westminster. The EU announcement which was legal if unwise was revoked in hours. The nonsense with the UK ripping up the withdrawal agreement lasted months. And that's just one example.

Even on this forum there is a thread explicitly critising the EU. In this thread alone from reading it, the EU decision came in for intense discussion.

The EU has powers given to it by the treaties governing the EU. What you saw at the weekend was democracy in action.


The other side is the way the UK are going the EU will active the penalty clauses contained in the withdrawal agreement including article 16(the UK can only diverge so much from the EU in certain areas). The reverse is also true however the EU will suffer less than the UK due to its size. I imagine people like yourself will say the EU is "bullying" the UK. But that's the tagline used by people in the UK when the EU activity defends its members interests.