Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

I disagree with your opinion but can see where this is heading if I continue to put my point of view forward.

Where is it heading? You're getting a fair shake like everyone else. You're just being asked to put some meat on the bones of these tabloid headlines you're throwing around.

A Dub in Glasgo

James O'Brien had Tony Connelly on today and Connelly was a bit more frank than he normally is. I liked Connelly's explanation (for the UK audience) that the EU is about pooling and sharing resources to raise everyone up rather than one country trying to beat everyone else in a race

https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1356299773624639489

RobMc59

PeadarCo wrote: »

Which would mean the UK hasn't a leg to stand on. You are talking about a government that introduced legislation that threatened to rip up an agreement that was only a few months old. The UK government acknowledged this in Westminster. The EU announcement which was legal if unwise was revoked in hours. The nonsense with the UK ripping up the withdrawal agreement lasted months. And that's just one example.

Even on this forum there is a thread explicitly critising the EU. In this thread alone from reading it, the EU decision came in for intense discussion.

The EU has powers given to it by the treaties governing the EU. What you saw at the weekend was democracy in action.


The other side is the way the UK are going the EU will active the penalty clauses contained in the withdrawal agreement including article 16(the UK can only diverge so much from the EU in certain areas). The reverse is also true however the EU will suffer less than the UK due to its size. I imagine people like yourself will say the EU is "bullying" the UK. But that's the tagline used by people in the UK when the EU activity defends its members interests.

The general gist of your post is very reasonable but the bit about people like me saying the EU is trying to bully is where I disagree.The EU is trying to bully to cover up it`s own failings.Claims that I`m posting in bad faith or can`t back up my claims is only relevant if you don`t want to believe brussels is ever wrong.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I appreciate that as an Irish forum frequented by posters who rarely see anything brussels does as worrying or overly intrusive, the general consensus is unlikely to agree with a British viewpoint.I believe if you`re going to criticise others you`ve got to be squeeky clean yourself which clearly is`nt the case here.

What do you actually want? Plenty of posters, the consensus in the media etc have all been critical of the EU. So what, if anything, would satisfy you that people aren't blind to errors and shortcomings of the EU?

What is the British viewpoint? That the shouldn't have threatened Art 16? Johnson did it only two weeks ago?

That the EU shouldn't threatened a border in NI? Brexit was built on borders and the UK threatened No Deal would guarantee it. Not to mention that the UK threatened to break international law.

What is most telling is that after 4 years of the UK being the spoilt child and the EU being the adult in room the EU panicked and now looks like the spoilt. Except the UK couldn't stop itself from playing the gleeful messer, glad that someone else is in trouble for once.

During Brexit we have seen the judiciary attacked, the HoL attacked, the biggest defeats in HoC history, MPs thrown out of their party, international law threatened, economic disaster threatened, reneging on financial obligations and yet one stupid error by the EU and suddenly its the UK that everyone should look up to?

The same UK that threw one of its nations under a bus and continues to ignore and belittle a second one!

RobMc59

tubercolossus wrote: »

Where is it heading? You're getting a fair shake like everyone else. You're just being asked to put some meat on the bones of these tabloid headlines you're throwing around.

I try to make a point of never quoting papers like the express or `papers` of that ilk.I try to source links from european/Irish media and am amazed that headlines from papers like the express are often quoted here and not for their amusing,ridiculous content.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

The general gist of your post is very reasonable but the bit about people like me saying the EU is trying to bully is where I disagree.The EU is trying to bully to cover up it`s own failings.Claims that I`m posting in bad faith or can`t back up my claims is only relevant if you don`t want to believe brussels is ever wrong.

No it isn't. It changed its mind before even actually doing anything.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

I try to make a point of never quoting papers like the express or `papers` of that ilk.I try to source links from european/Irish media and am amazed that headlines from papers like the express are often quoted here and not for their amusing,ridiculous content.

I didn't mean that you quoted anyone. I meant that your assertions are tabloid-level in nature.

hotmail.com

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

This is ridiculous. When they've bothered, they've been able to shape the EU to their will. They were the main force in advancing the single market under the Delors Commission. Leading the EU was always something the British could have done but chose not to.

They've always been an independent free country. This sophistry simply refuses to die. If they weren't, they couldn't have had a referendum and left. The paradox is ignored as much as it is obvious.

British conservatives spent decades shutting down any criticism of the Empire and avoiding compromise. 1945 Britain was an overextended mess which needed to rebuild itself and wasn't capable of suppressing resistance to its exploitation of its extra-European holdings so the Empire just fell apart. It's part of the reason that the Commonwealth exists. Part of the British establishment desperately long to feel like Britannia rules the waves but this is an absurd fantasy that had been debunked before the war due to the rise of the USA. All the war did was catalyse a readjustment of world power.

It's not in the nature of the British nationalist to accept defeat so we see the sort of weak revisionism you've presented here. It was the same when the Thirteen colonies broke away. There's a stink of English exceptionalism in the Tory party so unfortunately Imperialism seems to be alive and well though thankfully confined to that party.

And Indyref was permitted based on polling showing it would fail. The coalition allowed it so it could be shelved down the line.

The British have traditionally enjoyed vast reserves of soft power. They could always have led the EU away from protectionism but just didn't bother. They instead chose to use it as a scapegoat while the seething oligarchs resented any attempt to be made to pay tax so they spent decades vilifying it. The average Brexit voter might have thought they were taking back control but all they were doing was allowing the elites to abandon the merest pretence of having to govern for anyone other than themselves.

I was presenting their side of the story. I'm not getting into the 2016 arguments.

Again, Irish people want to focus on a small minority of British people to make their point. They ignore all the glaring signs that England doesn't like Europe.

If you actually looked at the broad view, you would see that most English people are tolerant, decent and ordinary people with a rich diversity and openness. One of the most tolerant nations in the world. They are proud of their history, like all the major powers. That's as far as it goes for most English people.

They just happen to want to not be in the EU. It's perhaps time for Irish people to get over this and respect their decision.

hotmail.com

Last week's fiasco has shown that we really have lost an ally in the EU.

Given that we know Ireland doesn't figure too highly in the agenda of UK governments, they do at least consider us much more than France or Germany and most of Europe.

Many in Europe see us as a rock in the middle of the Atlantic.

PeadarCo

RobMc59 wrote: »

The general gist of your post is very reasonable but the bit about people like me saying the EU is trying to bully is where I disagree.The EU is trying to bully to cover up it`s own failings.Claims that I`m posting in bad faith or can`t back up my claims is only relevant if you don`t want to believe brussels is ever wrong.

But what the EU was trying to do was trying to ensure that it's citizens got vaccinated. The debate around that the success of different countries vaccination programme is for a different forum from my point of view. . However my point is this the job of the EU is to act in the interests of its members. The UK is not a member. Its inevitable that the actions of the EU will negatively impact the UK. The other thing is that due to the size of the EU compared to the UK, the UK will have to follow laws and regulations decided by the EU without any direct say by the UK government. If the UK doesn't the EU will active the penalty clauses within the trade agreement.

What we saw at the weekend was the EU flexing it's muscles. It's might have been unwise, however it is a warning to the UK. Unless the UK stays in line with the EU in the relevant areas under the trade agreement this situation will arise again. Next time it won't be revoked in a few hours, but until the UK acceds to EU demands(ask Switzerland for what happens) . Your response to an EU mess is comical. It will be interesting to see the reaction of both yourself and the UK when the situation I've outlined occurs.

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

Last week's fiasco has shown that we really have lost an ally in the EU.

Given that we know Ireland doesn't figure too highly in the agenda of UK governments, they do at least consider us much more than France or Germany and most of Europe.

Many in Europe see us as a rock in the middle of the Atlantic.

Your advice to Ireland would be?

An Ciarraioch

Jamie and his friends trying to flex their muscles in Larne:

https://twitter.com/BBCJayneMcC/status/1356327089545355273

wexfordman2

hotmail.com wrote: »

I was presenting their side of the story. I'm not getting into the 2016 arguments.

Again, Irish people want to focus on a small minority of British people to make their point. They ignore all the glaring signs that England doesn't like Europe.

If you actually looked at the broad view, you would see that most English people are tolerant, decent and ordinary people with a rich diversity and openness. One of the most tolerant nations in the world. They are proud of their history, like all the major powers. That's as far as it goes for most English people.

They just happen to want to not be in the EU. It's perhaps time for Irish people to get over this and respect their decision.

What's the largest circulating paper in the uk ?
I would challenge the argument that the english are the most tolerant decent and ordinary people, you don't create an empire, or end up having had wars with the majority of the world at one stage or the other through tolerance and decency.

I get that a lot of that is historical, but a nations personality does not change in a whim.

And in more recent times, you have the most vicious levels of intolerance and xenophobia emminatijg from.british media, and British politicians, senior ones, ministers, from.a government with an 80 seat majority.

hotmail.com

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Your advice to Ireland would be?

Don't piss off Britain. They are still our nearest neighbour and have already signalled they will help us with vaccines.

Leroy42

hotmail.com wrote: »

I was presenting their side of the story. I'm not getting into the 2016 arguments.

Again, Irish people want to focus on a small minority of British people to make their point. They ignore all the glaring signs that England doesn't like Europe.

If you actually looked at the broad view, you would see that most English people are tolerant, decent and ordinary people with a rich diversity and openness. One of the most tolerant nations in the world. They are proud of their history, like all the major powers. That's as far as it goes for most English people.

They just happen to want to not be in the EU. It's perhaps time for Irish people to get over this and respect their decision.

Its perfectly fine for them not to want to be in the EU, but it trying to find a consistent or even rational reason that is the problem.

'I just don't like em' isn't really a reason. Most of the arguments against the EU have been debunked long ago, or as in the case with the Japan trade deal, they were actually more than happy to give up more or their supposed annoyances with the EU.

What many on here have been consistently asking for for years are actual coherent arguements. For a while it was fish, but that has all been shown up now. Sovereignty was a big one, without anything more than some soundbites and a perception that EU was in total control.

Most people everywhere are decent, tolerant people. But those in power get to drive the narrative and there is simply no way to claim that the UK government are decent or tolerant. Not to the EU, hell not even to Scotland or NI.

The government represents the people. The UK voted for this government. The Government is the UK whether people want to accept that or not

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

Don't piss off Britain. They are still our nearest neighbour and have already signalled they will help us with vaccines.

I don't think we go out of our way to piss them off. We are part of the EU but still treat Britain in a friendly manner. Think we play a good game.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

I was presenting their side of the story. I'm not getting into the 2016 arguments.

Again, Irish people want to focus on a small minority of British people to make their point. They ignore all the glaring signs that England doesn't like Europe.

If you actually looked at the broad view, you would see that most English people are tolerant, decent and ordinary people with a rich diversity and openness. One of the most tolerant nations in the world. They are proud of their history, like all the major powers. That's as far as it goes for most English people.

They just happen to want to not be in the EU. It's perhaps time for Irish people to get over this and respect their decision.

That minority are the ones who actually run this country. What glaring signs are there that England doesn't like Europe if its citizens are so open and tolerant? That's another oxymoron.

hotmail.com wrote: »

Last week's fiasco has shown that we really have lost an ally in the EU.

Given that we know Ireland doesn't figure too highly in the agenda of UK governments, they do at least consider us much more than France or Germany and most of Europe.

Many in Europe see us as a rock in the middle of the Atlantic.

No, it hasn't. Ireland has shown time and again the benefits of being in the EU for a small nation. The UK have always treated the Irish as being inferior upstarts who need to learn their place. The low character they displayed repeatedly during the negotiations over the border issue exemplified this perfectly and incessantly.

When HM government consider Ireland, it's solely because they have to. It's not out of any sort of love or respect they have for the Irish people. Look at how deprived Wales, NI, Scotland and Northern England are for examples of how things might be if Ireland had never become independent.

It's no coincidence that the current Home Secretary, a women of Bengali descent of all places once threatened to starve the Irish.

If HM government

Capt'n Midnight

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

Immediate Brexit consequences in NI, as Alliance gain, and unionists desert the DUP for Jim Allister's TUV:

https://twitter.com/NextIrishGE/status/1356155715619069953

The main take away is that SF could take the First Minister position. The DUP never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. It's a single issue party and they've managed to split their voters.

hotmail.com wrote: »

Surely it's time for Sinn Fein and the SDLP to merge.

The SDLP would merge with Fianna Fail long before they'd consider SF.

hotmail.com

wexfordman2 wrote: »

What's the largest circulating paper in the uk ?
I would challenge the argument that the english are the most tolerant decent and ordinary people, you don't create an empire, or end up having had wars with the majority of the world at one stage or the other through tolerance and decency.

I get that a lot of that is historical, but a nations personality does not change in a whim.

And in more recent times, you have the most vicious levels of intolerance and xenophobia emminatijg from.british media, and British politicians, senior ones, ministers, from.a government with an 80 seat majority.

Every country has issues. If you want to talk about xenophobia and racism, have a look into Eastern Europe and countries along the Mediterranean. Even ourselves have rampant racism towards Travellers.

Have you ever been to or spoken with English people. The newspapers which you refer to have tiny readership these days and don't reflect a typical English family. They work, watch the football at the weekend, enjoy a few pints, mind their own business, are proud of their NHS etc.

Ordinary.

hotmail.com

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

That minority are the ones who actually run this country. What glaring signs are there that England doesn't like Europe if its citizens are so open and tolerant? That's another oxymoron.



No, it hasn't. Ireland has shown time and again the benefits of being in the EU for a small nation. The UK have always treated the Irish as being inferior upstarts who need to learn their place. The low character they displayed repeatedly during the negotiations over the border issue exemplified this perfectly and incessantly.

When HM government consider Ireland, it's solely because they have to. It's not out of any sort of love or respect they have for the Irish people. Look at how deprived Wales, NI, Scotland and Northern England are for examples of how things might be if Ireland had never become independent.

It's no coincidence that the current Home Secretary, a women of Bengali descent of all places once threatened to starve the Irish.

If HM government

The referendum had 52% support.

I realise writing posts bashing Britain's decision for Brexit is easy and gets likes, but I was merely trying to expand the argument past the normal rubbish you hear on an Irish forum. Farage, they were lied to, campaign funding, Empire. Same things said all the time, not even bothering to see it from the British point of view.

ancapailldorcha

hotmail.com wrote: »

The referendum had 52% support.

I realise writing posts bashing Britain's decision for Brexit is easy and gets likes, but I was merely trying to expand the argument past the normal rubbish you hear on an Irish forum. Farage, they were lied to, campaign funding, Empire. Same things said all the time, not even bothering to see it from the British point of view.

Baseless, grandiose statements with nothing backing them or any indication of research, experience or knowledge beyond Express headlines don't really expand anything. Nor does this attempt at gloating.

hotmail.com

Leroy42 wrote: »

Its perfectly fine for them not to want to be in the EU, but it trying to find a consistent or even rational reason that is the problem.

'I just don't like em' isn't really a reason. Most of the arguments against the EU have been debunked long ago, or as in the case with the Japan trade deal, they were actually more than happy to give up more or their supposed annoyances with the EU.

What many on here have been consistently asking for for years are actual coherent arguements. For a while it was fish, but that has all been shown up now. Sovereignty was a big one, without anything more than some soundbites and a perception that EU was in total control.

Most people everywhere are decent, tolerant people. But those in power get to drive the narrative and there is simply no way to claim that the UK government are decent or tolerant. Not to the EU, hell not even to Scotland or NI.

The government represents the people. The UK voted for this government. The Government is the UK whether people want to accept that or not

The British Chancellor and his predecessor were of Pakistani or Indian background. The former is seen as a prospective successor to Johnson.

The Tories produced two female Prime Ministers.

They obviously aren't that bad.

Johnson himself is a liberatarian.

Detritus70

RobMc59 wrote: »

I disagree with your opinion but can see where this is heading if I continue to put my point of view forward.

Well, where has it been heading over the last hundreds of pages and posts?
You keep putting your opinion forward (evil, dictatorial EU etc) and we'll put our viewpoint across, the EU is a club built on mutual benefit and cooperation where one single member is not the most important thing.
And that because of this "grab every penny and every advantage for yourself, play them off against each other, divide and conquer" mindset of the UK, the UK is incompatible with EU membership and the EU is better off in the long run.
Where has it been heading?
Nowhere.
This will just drag on for hundreds, if not thousands, of pages and posts more without either side convincing the other.
I'm just saying, don't expect any major changes in attitude. You do what you do and we do what we do

hotmail.com

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Baseless, grandiose statements with nothing backing them or any indication of research, experience or knowledge beyond Express headlines don't really expand anything. Nor does this attempt at gloating.

I have never read the Express in my life.

I feel like I've touched a nerve with you.

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

The referendum had 52% support.

I realise writing posts bashing Britain's decision for Brexit is easy and gets likes, but I was merely trying to expand the argument past the normal rubbish you hear on an Irish forum. Farage, they were lied to, campaign funding, Empire. Same things said all the time, not even bothering to see it from the British point of view.

So they were lied to repeatedly prior to a mismanaged referendum but that doesn't matter. Okay.

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

I have never read the Express in my life.

I feel like I've touched a nerve with you.

You should. You would then have a deeper understanding of Brexit.

hotmail.com

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

So they were lied to repeatedly prior to a mismanaged referendum but that doesn't matter. Okay.

Stuck in 2016?

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

The British Chancellor and his predecessor were of Pakistani or Indian background. The former is seen as a prospective successor to Johnson.

The Tories produced two female Prime Ministers.

They obviously aren't that bad.

Johnson himself is a liberatarian.

Johnson claimed to be a One Nation Tory too. How did that work out?

Professor Moriarty

hotmail.com wrote: »

Stuck in 2016?

Your point?

FrancieBrady

hotmail.com wrote: »

I have never read the Express in my life.

I feel like I've touched a nerve with you.

Newspapers, particularly tabloid variety, are printed to make money, they pander to a mindset, you don't have to have read it to have the same mindset.