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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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    #992
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I was presenting their side of the story. I'm not getting into the 2016 arguments.

    Again, Irish people want to focus on a small minority of British people to make their point. They ignore all the glaring signs that England doesn't like Europe.

    If you actually looked at the broad view, you would see that most English people are tolerant, decent and ordinary people with a rich diversity and openness. One of the most tolerant nations in the world. They are proud of their history, like all the major powers. That's as far as it goes for most English people.

    They just happen to want to not be in the EU. It's perhaps time for Irish people to get over this and respect their decision.

    I'm pretty sure the British people in all of their (hope and) glory can manage without your insightful commentary and assistance in the interpretation of that post which was so forthright and lucid that I can't believe you bothered.

    Maddening.


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    #993
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,727 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I have never read the Express in my life.

    I feel like I've touched a nerve with you.

    Why? Is that what you're trying to do?

    I've spent years living here, exploring this country and learning about its history. I'm well aware of how the English view Europe, themselves, the other constituent nations of the UK and the Irish.

    A post that amounts to "You lost, get over it" is worth very little in my opinion. I know why people voted to leave so I see through your attempts at revisionism.

    By all means, please feel free to post a cogent, logical and informed argument but I and others have seen the same soundbytes, truisms, casuistry and sophistry too many times to believe them.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #994
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Last week's fiasco has shown that we really have lost an ally in the EU.

    We. Are. The. EU.
    Given that we know Ireland doesn't figure too highly in the agenda of UK governments, they do at least consider us much more than France or Germany and most of Europe.

    Many in Europe see us as a rock in the middle of the Atlantic.

    As for this twaddle? What?


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    #995
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Don't piss off Britain. They are still our nearest neighbour and have already signalled they will help us with vaccines.

    Don't piss them off because they will...?


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    #996
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,933 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I was presenting their side of the story. I'm not getting into the 2016 arguments.

    Again, Irish people want to focus on a small minority of British people to make their point. They ignore all the glaring signs that England doesn't like Europe.

    If you actually looked at the broad view, you would see that most English people are tolerant, decent and ordinary people with a rich diversity and openness. One of the most tolerant nations in the world. They are proud of their history, like all the major powers. That's as far as it goes for most English people.

    They just happen to want to not be in the EU. It's perhaps time for Irish people to get over this and respect their decision.

    He lives and works in England right now .

    Do you ?

    Your experience in comparison to his would be interesting.


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    #997
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    ancapailldorcha wrote: »
    Why? Is that what you're trying to do?

    I've spent years living here, exploring this country and learning about its history. I'm well aware of how the English view Europe, themselves, the other constituent nations of the UK and the Irish.

    A post that amounts to "You lost, get over it" is worth very little in my opinion. I know why people voted to leave so I see through your attempts at revisionism.

    By all means, please feel free to post a cogent, logical and informed argument but I and others have seen the same soundbytes, truisms, casuistry and sophistry too many times to believe them.

    You've rubbished my opinion a couple of times in quite hysterical terms if I may say. I don't see a point in continuing to debate with you.


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    #998
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The British Chancellor and his predecessor were of Pakistani or Indian background. The former is seen as a prospective successor to Johnson.

    The Tories produced two female Prime Ministers.

    They obviously aren't that bad.

    Johnson himself is a liberatarian.

    That was quite a swerve away from the substantive point that was being made.

    You didn't find Patel's comments "unfriendly" or "intolerant"? Were they the comments of the "ordinary" man of Blighty?


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    #999
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,933 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    You've rubbished my opinion a couple of times in quite hysterical terms if I may say. I don't see a point in continuing to debate with you.

    I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that you've managed to do that yourself.

    No input is required from anyone. You've just made assumptions, broad statements most seemingly from zero actual experience.


    Why


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    #1000
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    That was quite a swerve away from the substantive point that was being made.

    You didn't find Patel's comments "unfriendly" or "intolerant"? We're they the comments of the "ordinary" man of Blighty?

    Oh here comes the back up.


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    #1001
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    You've rubbished my opinion a couple of times in quite hysterical terms if I may say. I don't see a point in continuing to debate with you.

    Janey. It looks like ACD touched a nerve?


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    #1002
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    listermint wrote: »
    I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that you've managed to do that yourself.

    No input is required from anyone. You've just made assumptions, broad statements most seemingly from zero actual experience.


    Why

    Every boards is like this!

    You just don't agree With what I said! That's fine.

    Accusing someone of making broad statements is hilarious. Almost every post includes broad statements.


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    #1003
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Oh here comes the back up.

    Your posts on this matter, like your posts on American politics are all "hot takes" and lacking in any substance.

    That being said, your tenacity is commendable.


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    #1004
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Last week's fiasco has shown that we really have lost an ally in the EU.

    Given that we know Ireland doesn't figure too highly in the agenda of UK governments, they do at least consider us much more than France or Germany and most of Europe.

    Many in Europe see us as a rock in the middle of the Atlantic.
    And even more consider Ireland to be the very epitome of a liberal democracy that represents our Western European ideals.

    You don't know how well respected Ireland is. If anything Brexit has enhanced our standing in the EU. Our calm, dignified approach has been in sharp contrast with the carry on over the water.

    Oh and come on...the UK didn't consult us at all before embarking on this Brexit business which is basically incompatible with the GFA. They just assumed we'd bend to make their brexit work. That's not an ally. That's a bully.


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    #1005
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Your posts on this matter, like your posts on American politics are all "hot takes" and lacking in any substance.

    That being said, your tenacity is commendable.

    I clearly keep it interesting for you. I can't escape your replies!


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    #1006
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    murphaph wrote: »
    And even more consider Ireland to be the very epitome of a liberal democracy that represents our Western European ideals.

    You don't know how well respected Ireland is. If anything Brexit has enhanced our standing in the EU. Our calm, dignified approach has been in sharp contrast with the carry on over the water.

    Oh and come on...the UK didn't consult us at all before embarking on this Brexit business which is basically incompatible with the GFA. They just assumed we'd bend to make their brexit work. That's not an ally. That's a bully.

    Even allies can be difficult sometimes.

    But I maintain they are still an ally in so many ways, not least we share a similar culture, distinct from mainland Europe.

    Brexit has been a disaster for Ireland. We are isolated out In the Atlantic now.


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    #1007
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,933 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Even allies can be difficult sometimes.

    But I maintain they are still an ally in so many ways, not least we share a similar culture, distinct from mainland Europe.

    Brexit has been a disaster for Ireland.

    In which specific ways has brexit been 'a disaster' for Ireland. Be specific.


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    #1008
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,385 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    listermint wrote: »
    In which specific ways has brexit been 'a disaster' for Ireland. Be specific.

    I hope I have never replied on a forum with these demands.

    Is this the way you would speak to someone in normal conversation?


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    #1009
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Even allies can be difficult sometimes.

    But I maintain they are still an ally in so many ways, not least we share a similar culture, distinct from mainland Europe.

    Brexit has been a disaster for Ireland. We are isolated out In the Atlantic now.

    Indeed, Brexit has been a disaster for Ireland, especially its economy. What was really satisfying was the acknowledgement of the damage done to Ireland from our friends in the Tory party.


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    #1010
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I've a feeling at least 2 posters on this thread are only here to get a rise out of people so I'm out with those ones.


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    #1011
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,625 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Even allies can be difficult sometimes.

    But I maintain they are still an ally in so many ways, not least we share a similar culture, distinct from mainland Europe.

    Brexit has been a disaster for Ireland. We are isolated out In the Atlantic now.

    Yes, there is some truth to that. But its because the UK, despite our best efforts, that have chosen not only to leave the EU but to pick the hardest of Brexits.

    We are far less isolated being part of the EU, despite the geographical limitations, than we would now be were we not in the EU.


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    #1012
    Detritus70
    Registered Users Posts: 775 ✭✭✭Detritus70


    murphaph wrote: »
    I've a feeling at least 2 posters on this thread are only here to get a rise out of people so I'm out with those ones.

    I find the amount of time and energy they spend over hundreds of posts almost admirable.
    Either they really have nothing better to do or they get paid a penny a line.
    Their purpose is of course to drag the thread off topic, obfuscate the facts and frustrate serious posters.
    Most of the time they are very good at baiting, absorbing any emotionally triggering statement aimed at them without any sign of impact, whilst trying to goad serious posters into emotional outbursts that will get them banned. You can say anything to these people, water off a duck's back.
    Mostly they post empty statements, devoid of any links or backup of their "facts" in any way, shape or form.
    Lots of them will also say "do your own research", because they haven't.
    It's a quick and easy way to take up a lot of space in a discussion with empty rhetoric without having to do any work or research whatsoever.
    I am not talking about anyone in particular, of course, of course.

    "I'm not a Trump supporter, but..." is the new "I'm not a racist, but...".



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    #1013
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Every country has issues. If you want to talk about xenophobia and racism, have a look into Eastern Europe and countries along the Mediterranean. Even ourselves have rampant racism towards Travellers.

    Have you ever been to or spoken with English people. The newspapers which you refer to have tiny readership these days and don't reflect a typical English family. They work, watch the football at the weekend, enjoy a few pints, mind their own business, are proud of their NHS etc.

    Ordinary.

    I am not in any way denying other countries (including Ireland) have issues, whataboutery is not an adequate response. ..

    Yes, I have spoken to english people, what kind of a question is that ? I have, like pretty much every Irish person, relatives who are english (and nice, pleasant non racist, non xenophobic as well, imagine that), and I lived in the uk myself for 6 years.

    I'll ask you again, what's the largest daily newspaper in circulation int eh uk, with the largest daily readership, or even give me the top 5.


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    #1014
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    I hope I have never replied on a forum with these demands.

    Is this the way you would speak to someone in normal conversation?

    That was quite a normal response to your question, perhaps you could answer.

    In what way has brexit been a disaster for ireland that you claim it has been ? And how are we "isolated" as you claim we now are ?


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    #1015
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Yes, there is some truth to that. But its because the UK, despite our best efforts, that have chosen not only to leave the EU but to pick the hardest of Brexits.

    We are far less isolated being part of the EU, despite the geographical limitations, than we would now be were we not in the EU.

    Well they didn't really go for the hardest of Brexits !!

    Surely the best thing for Ireland is to try and maintain the best possible relations with the UK and the EU. I think a healthy level of respect for democracy in the UK has to accept that they voted for Brexit whether we like it or not. We have the super CTA agreement in place, the peace process and lots in common with the UK. Let's try and leverage both this relationship and the EU to benefit Ireland. We need to avoid the extremes of anti brexit sentiment in the EU as it serves us no purpose. It might make us feel better to be poking the Brits but it isn't in our interests. Ideally in time we should and it would make sense for us to become a bit of a go between the UK and the EU, a friend inside both camps.

    It may be unpalatable to some but it will benefit Ireland no end.

    Simple example is many UK companies need small export ops based in the EU for trading purposes. Very easy for them to setup in Ireland, common language, culture etc.

    I know its hard due to historical baggage but we have lots to gain from being a friend to both.


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    #1016
    wexfordman2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,554 ✭✭✭wexfordman2


    Could you please tell us or provide us with one instance where Ireland has not respected the UKs democratic decision ? I'm really tired of hearing people.say this, yep they voted for it, and they instigated it, where did we not respect that decision ?


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    #1017
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,727 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Well they didn't really go for the hardest of Brexits !!

    Surely the best thing for Ireland is to try and maintain the best possible relations with the UK and the EU. I think a healthy level of respect for democracy in the UK has to accept that they voted for Brexit whether we like it or not. We have the super CTA agreement in place, the peace process and lots in common with the UK. Let's try and leverage both this relationship and the EU to benefit Ireland. We need to avoid the extremes of anti brexit sentiment in the EU as it serves us no purpose. It might make us feel better to be poking the Brits but it isn't in our interests. Ideally in time we should and it would make sense for us to become a bit of a go between the UK and the EU, a friend inside both camps.

    It may be unpalatable to some but it will benefit Ireland no end.

    Simple example is many UK companies need small export ops based in the EU for trading purposes. Very easy for them to setup in Ireland, common language, culture etc.

    I know its hard due to historical baggage but we have lots to gain from being a friend to both.

    But they did. Full dissociation with a commitment to maintain level playing fields across different sectors.

    Why would this be unpalatable to Ireland? Sounds like a decent idea if it would work but I think most UK businesses prefer to move to the continent.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



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    #1018
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    wexfordman2 wrote: »
    Could you please tell us or provide us with one instance where Ireland has not respected the UKs democratic decision ? I'm really tired of hearing people.say this, yep they voted for it, and they instigated it, where did we not respect that decision ?

    Well the endless criticism, laughing at truck queues, looking at problems, the 'they made their beds now they can lie in it' type comments etc etc. Don't have to go very far to find them...... It's a mindset shift - along the lines of okay you voted to leave the EU so how can we reframe our relationship and look for opportunities. The UK is a market of 60 million people on our doorstep. We could simply ignore the rest of the world the UK alone would be a large enough market for Irish farmers, industry and tourism to thrive off. Not saying we should only exclusively trade with the UK but we have a massive market right there.........the mindset shift needed to maximise it firstly needs to move on from Brexit. Not sure we are there yet.


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    #1019
    The Raging Bile Duct
    Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Well the endless criticism, laughing at truck queues, looking at problems, the 'they made their beds now they can lie in it' type comments etc etc. Don't have to go very far to find them...... It's a mindset shift - along the lines of okay you voted to leave the EU so how can we reframe our relationship and look for opportunities. The UK is a market of 60 million people on our doorstep. We could simply ignore the rest of the world the UK alone would be a large enough market for Irish farmers, industry and tourism to thrive off. Not saying we should only exclusively trade with the UK but we have a massive market right there.........the mindset shift needed to maximise it firstly needs to move on from Brexit. Not sure we are there yet.

    It has taken us decades to stop being almost solely dependent on the whims of the UK. It would be a disaster for us to go back to that state of being.


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    #1020
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,746 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Well the endless criticism, laughing at truck queues, looking at problems, the 'they made their beds now they can lie in it' type comments etc etc. Don't have to go very far to find them...... It's a mindset shift - along the lines of okay you voted to leave the EU so how can we reframe our relationship and look for opportunities. The UK is a market of 60 million people on our doorstep. We could simply ignore the rest of the world the UK alone would be a large enough market for Irish farmers, industry and tourism to thrive off. Not saying we should only exclusively trade with the UK but we have a massive market right there.........the mindset shift needed to maximise it firstly needs to move on from Brexit. Not sure we are there yet.
    So you'd like us to go back to the 1950s? We learnt the hard way not to depend on a single market such as the UK. We had no say in how it was run and were at the mercy of the serving government.
    By joining the EU we suddenly had access to a wider market which we had a voice.
    We should never go back. To propose such a move is sheer economic idiocy!


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    #1021
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »
    Well the endless criticism, laughing at truck queues, looking at problems, the 'they made their beds now they can lie in it' type comments etc etc. Don't have to go very far to find them...... It's a mindset shift - along the lines of okay you voted to leave the EU so how can we reframe our relationship and look for opportunities. The UK is a market of 60 million people on our doorstep. We could simply ignore the rest of the world the UK alone would be a large enough market for Irish farmers, industry and tourism to thrive off. Not saying we should only exclusively trade with the UK but we have a massive market right there.........the mindset shift needed to maximise it firstly needs to move on from Brexit. Not sure we are there yet.

    That's a fair point. I think we are doing this already. People on here, including myself, are rightly criticising the UK for Brexit and all that flows from it. However, at government level, we are playing a good and long game in that we are maintaining good relations with Britain while embedding ourselves further in the EU. If we can continue this it will benefit us hugely. We could find new markets on the continent and maintain our exports to the UK as much as possible. In this regard, I think Ireland Inc is cleverly adhering to realpolitik.


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