Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

joeguevara

As with Covid, Ukraine and indeed any discussion about Brexit I’ve given up trying to debate my point (firstly I’m pro vaccination, mask, lockdown etc, staunch pro EU anti Brexit) with anyone entrenched in the opposite because no one ever changes their opinion.

I found this article earlier today and was blown away by its candour and succinct ability to disect the two Jan 2022 Benefits of Brexit reports http://eulawanalysis.blogspot.com/2022/02/hunting-benefits-of-brexit.html?m=1

i especially like the opening paragraph of ‘Both reports aim to chart the trajectory of Brexit Britain's new found regulatory freedoms. Both reveal how little has been done so far in the two years since the UK left the EU. Doing Things Differently? Is sober, detailed and thoughtful on why this is and on what may be expected in future. Benefits of Brexit is, in stark contrast, disingenuous in its misdescriptions of the consequences of Brexit and shameless in its inflated claims about joys to come in future.’

54and56

Brexit parliamentary lawmakers angry with court that the laws they drafted, debated, scrutinised and voted overwhelmingly to give effect to are in fact legal!!

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you Kate Hoey, Ben Habib and Jim Allister.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/14/northern-ireland-protocol-is-lawful-court-of-appeal-rules?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784807#Comment_118784807

Kate Hoey is an absolute joke and the embodiment of everything wrong with FPTP and the British political system.

Hated by her own constituents who had to vote for her (me included) to get the PM we wanted. Stepped down as soon as Labour changed the rules to be able to out sitting MPs because she knew damn well she was coming nowhere near representing the people who elected her.

Brussels Sprout

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784848#Comment_118784848

Has she always been a loon? I somewhat recall her being normal during the Blair years but then again I wouldn't have been paying too much attention to her.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784848#Comment_118784848

Her views are all over the place. In any other political system she would be an independent or small party leader.

From her Wikipedia

Hoey is a Eurosceptic and has often rebelled against her party.[10] She was a prominent critic of the ban on handguns[11] and, in an interview in Sporting Gun magazine, voiced her support for fox hunting.[11] She has voted against Labour government policy on the war in Iraq, foundation hospitals, Trident, university tuition and top-up fees, ID cards and extended detention without trial. She was a leading Labour rebel supporting a referendum on the EU Lisbon Treaty.[12] Hoey favours stricter controls on immigration, tougher welfare reform, withdrawal from the European Union, English votes for English laws, grammar schools, marriage tax allowances, free schools and academies.

Basically a Marxist who is a lord, an international Marxist who believes in isolationism and a DUP sympathiser who wants a United Ireland.

Professor Moriarty

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784958#Comment_118784958

The worst policy is her support for fox hunting. The unspeakable in pursuit of the uneatable.

serfboard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118766234#Comment_118766234

Thanks so much for posting the link to that blog entry, which is written by a former Professor of European Law at Oxford. It's a brilliant demolition of the UK government's "Benefits of Brexit" report. Although it's long, I'd encourage everyone here to read it - you won't regret the time spent. I'll give some quotes:

"The tone of Benefits of Brexit is bright and breezy. A charitable interpretation would treat it as sunnily optimistic, eager to please and to inspire. A grumpier verdict would condemn it as fatuously uncritical."

"The pages that follow take vainglory to towering heights ... There will be a "sovereign approach", the UK will lead from the front; proportionality will reign; there shall be recognition of what works; and there shall be high standards set at home and globally. It will be strategic! Holistic! Efficient!

Digging too deep into this mire of verbiage invites misery."

"'We will encourage bold, outcome focused and experimental activity from regulators, who will work collaboratively with businesses, for example using test -beds and sandboxes to support innovation and the co-creation of future industries.'

It's regulatory reform the David Brent way."

"It's easy to mock this puppy dog enthusiasm. It's impossible not to, in truth. Benefits of Brexit is world leading in flim flam and shiny enthusiasm."

"The strong message of Benefits of Brexit is that the government's plan for Brexit is to say stridently that there is a plan for Brexit."

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118784807#Comment_118784807

Courts hands down Protocol-affirming judgement. And therefore:

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesSky/status/1503452691988725762?s=20&t=QhxFiJaV5l-Og0ef-TszOQ

Pete_Cavan

Further to the above, is this the first step too legally detach NI from GB?

twitter.com/DavidScullion/status/1503385904551022594

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118785668#Comment_118785668

Well, no.

NI already has a quite separate system for the registration of cars - using a completely separate system of registration numbers.

The system used for NCT (MOT) car tests are run by Gov testers, as opposed to the GB system that uses private garages that also carry out required repairs (with no hint of conflict of interest).

I am sure there ae plenty of other examples.

J Mysterio

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/non-irish-eu-citizens-crossing-border-face-travel-clearance-requirement-after-mps-vote-1.4833667

This is very serious. The Tories look to have tried to sneak in some sort of hardening of the border while everyone was looking over there.

I for one would not comply with this requirement when going up North with my foreign partner, and I go up there regularly.

AyeGer

First step in ending the CTA maybe. A British passport may be needed to go from NI to Britain freely.

There goes the US trade deal …

This kind of thing is very specially going going to cause serious issues.

Christy42

They have 0 chance of being able to enforce that unless someone walks up to them confessing.

What will they do? Cause havoc on the motorways? Block all the tiny roads in and out? Neither is happening, it would piss off too many people.

Fionn1952

Whether enforceable or not, it will certainly have a knock on effect on NI tourism as many people who fly into Dublin pop up to the North for a daytrip or two will be put off by the perceived risk of hassle, no matter how small the risk is in reality.

Notable that all DUP MPs voted along with the government on it....it doesn't matter how self-defeating something is in the long term, those idiots would vote for anything to create a sense of separation between North and South. The DUP have done more to make a case for Unification since the Brexit vote than the Shinners ever managed.

roosterman71

This won't be enforced. There won't be police checking documents as you cross the border, or while your there. The problem may arise if you have an issue when there. Like be in an accident, fall ill, be a victim of a crime. And then questions will be asked, and then you may find yourself with no support as you shouldn't be there in the first place

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822364#Comment_118822364

My missus is Australian. We've been up to the north several times. She used to go up on the bus. There were times (in the last 10 years) when the bus was stopped and she was asked for ID. Her Garda GNIB card was fine. If stopped now she'd need an ETA too. On the plus side I now have a good excuse not to go up there for shopping anymore.

*We've never been stopped when going up in the car though. I'd imagine that'd be much harder to police.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118822429#Comment_118822429

Weird. I have been to the North a decent bit. Both driving and by public transport. Never would have considered bringing id unless I needed for some other reason. I am Irish but presumably they wouldn't know that without id.

I take this was just done generally within the borders of the North and not on the border itself?

Fionn1952

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824294#Comment_118824294

Given my background, I've travelled back and forth across the border countless times and I've only ever been stopped once. I was on public transport, bus was pulled over just across the border but not directly on it. I didn't have any sort of ID on me, but the Tayto head and accent on me seemed to be all the proof I needed. A few folk with different accents or complexions were looked at a little more closely than I was.

Sam Russell

This is clearly a breach of the Good Friday Agreement, and the spirit of the Brexit withdrawal agreement to not create a hard border on the island of Ireland.

It is another example of the British Government bad faith.

There’s a HUGE problem in this in the sense that you can’t identify someone as Irish or British by just looking at them or listening to them. It’s going to result in a whole lot of quite nasty racism and racial profiling.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824399#Comment_118824399

nasty racism and racial profiling

I can see why the Tories and the DUP voted for it.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824392#Comment_118824392

Struggling to see how it breaches the GFA. There's no hard border being created in the physical sense, and ultimately the UK is entitled to put whatever entry requirements it wants on (non-Irish) EU citizens.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824587#Comment_118824587

You can only check the requirements with a hard border. Otherwise it will just be ignored.

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824747#Comment_118824747

I don't think we are in disagreement. But I'm not sure what relevance it has to my question to SR about his claim that it is a clear breach of the GFA.

It seems perfectly fine to me - people who are entitled to travel freely and without hindrance under GFA can continue to do so. Those who are not entitled to travel freely can also continue to take advantage of the lax border if they wish, but it may ultimately cause them problems.

It's not a new situation - the Vietnamese and Indian people in my job with Irish working visas (but not Irish citizenship) were not entitled to travel up North even pre-Brexit. Now these rules can apply to more people/countries and the UK is entitled to have it apply to Austrians but not Bulgarians or Spanish or whatever they decide. Once it doesn't apply to Irish citizens then I don't see how GFA is breached.

But I'm humble enough to accept I could be wrong and maybe SR can tell me how it's a problem for GFA.

6541

I love this, If i was in The North and someone asked me to prove I was Irish I would tell them were to go.

Glaceon

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824334#Comment_118824334

It happened to me once on a bus from Newry. Pulled over at Dundalk and a Garda came on checking ID. I didn’t have any but my accent seemed to satisfy him. He laughed and said “there’s loads of Italians around ya”.

joeysoap

Designed to kill off overnight stays in NI. I wouldn't be overjoyed if i were involved in the NI Tourism Board.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824392#Comment_118824392

Id be no fan of the Brits but I can't see how this a breach of the GFA. Can you elaborate on that please?

Sam Russell

The GFA applies to all those who live on the island of Ireland, including minorities. It does not just apply to citizens of Ireland or Britain.

The current Gov in Britain has history in this - announcing in the HoC its intention of breaking international law, so this is not new.

If they wish to implement this (proposed) law, it will affect the current arrangements for visas that allow free movement between the two countries. Most visa requirements for either country are mirrored by the other - or at least were.