Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118824881#Comment_118824881

How do you check if people can travel without hindrance without hindering them? You have to check somewhere and a lot of people cross that border every day. Either you cause massive delays or you don't bother checking and it is as if it never happened. It isn't a bother at the moment because everyone just ignores it if they want to.

You could try spot checks but that will not stop someone who really wants to go up there for some reason the UK doesn't want.

Many might not bother bringing ID up north, as someone mentioned they seemed Irish enough to pass so you wind up with racial profiling.

Sam Russell

This proposal is just an extension of the hostile environment so beloved by the Home Office and the current Home Secretary.

Part hostile environment, part keeping up with the Joneses - if the US requires prior notice of arrival and the EU requires prior notice of arrival and Australia requires prior notice of arrival, it is only right that the UK should also require prior notice of arrival.

That it ignores the gaping hole in their border is besides the point.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118827986#Comment_118827986

The EU and Australia don't try have cake and eat it in terms of their borders. The UK promised no border in NI and refuse (vocally but not really) to have an Irish sea border but also want strict checks to enter the UK.

The US is a nutbag system where illegal immigrants are even paying income tax

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828381#Comment_118828381

The US is a nutbag system where illegal immigrants are even paying income tax

That sounds like what we would call an Irish solution to an Irish problem. It's OK, they are illegal, but they are at least paying their income tax - which is more than most of the US billionaires are doing - and it appears quite legally, if Trump is typical.

Varik

UK's push on India over Russia seems to have knocked their post Brexit trade deal off course.

The cross party delegation lead by the commons speaker is called off.

PokeHerKing

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825833#Comment_118825833

I'm still waiting for the clear breach of the GFA? The above post does not clarify that statement at all.

Fasano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118825833#Comment_118825833

The common travel area only applies to British or Irish Citizens

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118834793#Comment_118834793

I was referring to the GFA.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118828712#Comment_118828712

Not clear if Trump's a billionaire, but what's happening in the case of the ultra-wealthy in the US is that they file their taxes attesting some amount of income, and some amount of deductions, and the result is that at tax time (15 April in the US) they don't remit any more money. They may very well have paid already, ultra-wealthy typically pay taxes at regular intervals, or have had offsetting losses.

Undocumented immigrants again, in theory, could avail themselves of the same dodges as the wealthy do.

US tax code is crazy, plain and simple, and most soundbites greatly oversimplify things. But it does seem like those with staggeringly high wealth (Bezos, for example), don't remit a lot of money directly.

Not defending the system at all or those that game it, but I think it's different than what happens in Ireland, for example, which doesn't appear to have the super complex deductions stuff.

Fasano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118834903#Comment_118834903

I know, but it makes no difference.

the CTA only applies to British and Irish Citizens so in theory, the right to move across the border freely also only applies to British and Irish citizens.

Saying that the GFA applies to all people of Ireland regardless of their nationality (which is what I presume you meant by "Minorities"), would also suggest that those people also get a say in a border poll, which they clearly won't.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835058#Comment_118835058

There is no way any non-Irish citizen will get to vote in an Irish border poll. It is just not possible since it is a constitutional referendum and only Irish citizens can vote. In NI, they will do as they will, but again only NI voters are likely to be allowed to vote. There is a lot more in the GFA than a border poll.

Fasano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835145#Comment_118835145

I am aware of that.

But I fail to see anything that is being infringed by the requirement to get pre approval for non British and Irish citizens. If someone has a visa to enter Ireland and not the UK, or vice versa, then they can't legally cross the border today, although I would guess plenty do.

I would hazard a guess that this is just a way of throwing people out if they don't have the right to be there, but I can't see how it can be enforced effectively.

Podge_irl

Yeah, I can not remotely see how this even comes close to contravening the GFA. If anything it is just a hardening of a situation that already exists.

Ultimately however, though we know it will never be enforced, it will still have a significant negative impact on the North as all incoming tourists will know is that they are not allowed travel to the North without further documentation. It will dissuade them regardless of how pointless the whole thing is.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835598#Comment_118835598

Especially now in Covid times your average tourist will check the regulations and for many this will be the difference between a Dublin/Cork holiday and a Dublin/Belfast one.

I do feel really sorry for the massive number of people who don't even know it's 2 countries who might get caught up in this.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835598#Comment_118835598

So, I'm an Irish citizen, but I definitely don't sound like one. Will the new law mean I have to carry my passport with me on a trip North? How do you enforce this new law without some sort of border, or profiling? And, frankly, how do you trust HMG to not eventually increase the enforcement so that it is a border if its only a 'border in name' now?

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835665#Comment_118835665

It won't be enforced and technically you need to carry ID with you now.

And I "trust" HMG not to increase enforcement to a border because Ireland's entire point during the Brexit negotiations is that an enforced border is essentially impossible

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835665#Comment_118835665

What happens if they do ask an Irish person ?

Do I have a certain amount of time to show a passport or something ?

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835712#Comment_118835712

Is ID "Passport" or is it, say, Driving License? Either way it's "papers, please" for an Irish citizen traveling to NI, enforced by the UK government. Can't see any problems with that, uh-huh.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835790#Comment_118835790

No idea, I've never been asked. What'd be worse for me at least is if I worked in NI and lived in the Republic, and got hassled a lot. Can see that happening if this law comes into place. And remind me, why did England need this?

Fasano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118835790#Comment_118835790

The same thing that happens today I guess.

I have only ever been asked as a foot passenger getting off the ferry in Dublin and no ID was requested.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837482#Comment_118837482

What I meant was what happens then or now if the PSNI don't believe you and you have no ID. Can they hold you for it.

Fasano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118837572#Comment_118837572

That’s a good question.

do the PSNI even have the right to ask, or is it an immigration matter?

it may be a case that if the PSNI are asking for proof, then you are most likely in their custody already. I would be very surprised if they can just randomly stop people and ask to see proof of ID, because carrying ID with you is not a legal requirement.

murphaph

Typical DUP. We (my German wife and son) would often take a spin up north when on a visit home to Dublin. She, like most Germans won't break the rules so she won't go north without a passport in hand now and she's not really inclined to pack it in addition to her ID card, just on the off chance we might head up north, so now the few quid we'd have spent there will be spent in the republic. Simple as that. It sums Brexit up: put up any sort of barriers to trade and trade reduces.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842381#Comment_118842381

The DUP and the hardcore Brexiteers don't want your trade.

The further economically the north is from the south the better according to them.

Anything less would be the slippery slope to a UI.

They only want trade from the east.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842951#Comment_118842951

The DUP don't want trade at all. Peace and affluence has led to a generation in the North who have grown up with no interest in their backward sectarian homophobic sht.

Normalization of society is a danger to them.

As the name might suggest, I know a lot of French people and we were having this discussion last week. Organised coach tours are already beginning to avoid Northern Ireland due to the passport requirements, this will quite literally end French tourism to NI by ferry / road.

The immediate impression is that it’s too complicated and that they aren’t welcome due to Brexit.

A lot of tourism hasn’t been happening to the usual volumes due to COVID but I think you’ll see a big pick up in the Republic from next month, ferries etc are restoring normality and tourists are just far less likely to want to the border.

There are already media horror stories in France about people being accused of trying to enter the uk illegally while visiting the England. So there’s already a sense that it’s just messy / they’re not wanted.

My guess is they’ll probably try to blame COVID when the tourism market doesn’t pick up in NI, but the reality is they’re frightening off European tourism..

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118842381#Comment_118842381

“put up any sort of barriers to trade and trade reduces”, put in a graph courtesy of the UK’s very own OBR:

https://twitter.com/OBR_UK/status/1508408639371071495?s=20&t=J8Uxyit7oCdK3FtbkYUoHA

“We’ve had enough of exports” indeed.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118843007#Comment_118843007

I've said it before elsewhere, and I feel compelled to say it again: the DUP was born from a position of intransigence and negativity; a self-appointed extremist bulwark against, as you say, normalisation and a slow crawl towards parity for both communities. Their DNA speaks to constant, seething defensiveness and begrudgery, incapable of even relenting for a second, lest it seem like they're going soft. Even the cynical pursuit of power for its own sake acknowledges the reality of having to run a country.

So of course the DUP's (sub)conscious needs to self-destruct its own province and the population they claim to represent; which must surely make them the most incapable, incompetent political party in governance across the UK - perhaps Europe. Again, even the power hungry recognise the wheels must turn - the DUP regularly sabotage those wheels.

By any normal metric, they should have been bounced from relevance a decade ago - yet that lingering paranoia within the heartlands of certain constituencies ensures they can continue to stay relevant. The era of "the chuckle brothers" gave a false sense the party might lean into moderation through practicality. The reality of Brexit has shown otherwise; I pray those Assembly Elections in May finally show the dam breaking - but I also know the likes of the TUV are waiting in the wings.

O'Neill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118846671#Comment_118846671

Although I'm not an Aliance voter, I really hope they do well in this election.

https://twitter.com/WilliamMcGowa15/status/1489344295748489219?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1489344295748489219%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fsluggerotoole.com%2F2022%2F02%2F04%2Fgo-down-in-history-as-one-of-the-all-time-worst-led-political-parties%2F

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118850551#Comment_118850551

Not according to Sunak yesterday at a committee hearing. He just said it was too early to say and that there were lots of factors, although he couldn't explain what those factors might be.

After talking in circles for a bit he then came out with the line that a drop in trade was always inevitable given the move away from the EU. Which would come as somewhat of a surprise given that anybody saying there would be negative impacts from Brexit was labeled Project Fear.

But what his reply shows, is that the government has accepted that trade is, and will continue to be negatively impacted in the short term. And yet, as they have failed to do throughout the entire process, they have offered absolutely nothing in terms of any thing even resembling a plan of how to deal with it.