Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

The rules are there to control the spread of disease, parasites, and rogue varieties of bee. SPS matters ae important.

Sam,surely if the bees are from Italy they meet all required standards?

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Two points here.It will be interesting to see if the UK show some common sense ,after all anything which helps the environment and encourages this type of cottage industry is a good thing.

Cottage industry? Bee-rental for pollination purposes is Big Business (and not great for the bees) This kind of activity is, to apiary, what automated milking is to the dairy industry. Everything to do with economics; nothing to do with the environment.

And do you include in your definition of "common sense" the UK authorities clamping down hard, really hard - really really hard - on individuals trying to circumvent British law? Trying use Ireland/Northern Ireland as a back door for illegal imports? Isn't that what taking back control was all about?

Or (slightly rhetorical question, as I think I know your position on this) are you suggesting that the UK should - finally, and with no duplicity - commit to a non-regression agreement in respect of sanitary and phyto-sanitary standards that match those of the EU, and apply for recognition as a country that can be trusted?

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sam,surely if the bees are from Italy they meet all required standards?

I doubt it. Only queen bees should be exported and then only when they are certified disease free. All animals imported into Larne for many years have been subject to SPS inspection. It is not just since Jan 1st, or even Brexit.

Importing a slip of a plant from, say, Italy is not a good idea and is discouraged, if not banned. They should be obtained from reliable sources. Diseases spread this way - ash trees are the latest victims with ash die-back. Dutch Elm disease wiped out all our elms. We suffer from Japanese Knot Weed infestation which is near impossible to eradicate. Colorado beetles are another infestation. I am sure there are many more.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sam,surely if the bees are from Italy they meet all required standards?

Just done a bit of digging, and the answer is most definitely not. Parts of Italy are subject to a total ban on bee exports, due to the presence of a transmissible parasite.

Controlling this kind of disease is one of the reasons why the UK will only allow the import of queens, and all the rest of the stuff sent with them (including the worker bees) has to be sent off for analysis while the queens stay in quarantine.

Pity the UK (and Ireland ...) doesn't afford the same degree of protection to human health, but that's a topic for another thread. :rolleyes:

Hurrache

CelticRambler wrote: »

l

Pity the UK (and Ireland ...) doesn't afford the same degree of protection to human health, but that's a topic for another thread. :rolleyes:

Not just human, but the health of the world, is hugely dependent on a healthy bee population.

BonnieSituation

I told ya wrote: »

I accept it's an accommodation, but only within the ballpark of the GFA. I would not be of the view that one equals the other ie acceptance of the GFA equals acceptance of a UI. Not by a long shot is the GFA 'that accommodation'.

Back then people voted against the GFA. I don't know what % of the NI vote would be required to make it work. I would argue it would need to be very high.

A UI is a totally different ballpark.

No one has ever stated that acceptance of the GFA is an acceptance of a UI.

That is literally the point of the GFA.

Hurrache

Going back to the DUP bringing their terrorist friends to the meeting with the NIO and subsequent order from the local authorities to those working in the port not to attend work due to apparent threats, of which the PSNI haven't yet been able to verify. The UVF likely get their drugs via Larne and mandatory checks there no doubt trouble them, so they lean on the DUP.

Larbre34

Arlene Foster is going to have her wee chat with Boris Johnson tomorrow and Boris is going to tell her to jog on. And that'll be the end of that.

yagan

BonnieSituation wrote: »

No one has ever stated that acceptance of the GFA is an acceptance of a UI.

That is literally the point of the GFA.

The DUP never signed the GFA and never embraced parity of esteem judging by their stated position that Irish people wanting to speak Irish in Ireland was an act of cultural supremacy.

BonnieSituation

yagan wrote: »

The DUP never signed the GFA and never embraced parity of esteem judging by their stated position that Irish people wanting to speak Irish in Ireland was an act of cultural supremacy.

Correct. Being of an age, I remember their tantrums well.

The DUP have been on the wrong side of every major decision and event in their history.

And now their is plan is to go more to the right and to the fringes.

It's a remarkable record.

Surely now there has to be an acceptance that the DUP are no more interested in peace and equality than they are in making sure Themmuns know their place.

BonnieSituation

Well, this is a threat surely? The DUP speaking on behalf of everyone again.

The party also said the north-south relationship could not continue as normal following last week's EU intervention on Article 16.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2021/0203/1194705-brexit/

Akrasia

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The DUP are once again calling to dismantle the NI protocol and call for Article 16 to be used, why are the Brexiteers who climbed out of the woodwork last week not outraged in indignation? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55904189

There’s no point in being outraged by anything the DUP say about anything. They’re a perennially outrageous organization who have very little real power, and even less now that Johnson won an 80 seat majority

The EU commission on the other hand are much more powerful and usually mean exactly what they say with the power to get it done, which is why one blip in political awareness from them sends more shockwaves than decades of vitriol and bigotry from the DUP

blackcard

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The DUP are once again calling to dismantle the NI protocol and call for Article 16 to be used, why are the Brexiteers who climbed out of the woodwork last week not outraged in indignation? https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-55904189

Arlene said last week that it was an act of aggression by the EU to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol and that it was political opportunism. Whereas when Arlene calls for the same thing......
Does she realise how stupid she sounds?

Infini

The DUP broke it, they bought it. Brexit and all it entails is because of them and their Tory Conspirators so they should just be told in no uncertain terms that no matter how much they complain thing's aren't going to change to suit their minority views. This carryon is also likely only happening because they're seriously at risk of being voted out in the next elections after doing everything in their power to undermine the union they claim to support.

Really wish people would just call them out on their bull**** and ask why they expect thing's to change just because they don't like things and how are they expected to come up with something better after they spent the last 4 year's stirring the pot.

blackcard wrote: »

Arlene said last week that it was an act of aggression by the EU to invoke Article 16 of the Protocol and that it was political opportunism. Whereas when Arlene calls for the same thing......
Does she realise how stupid she sounds?

Might not be a case of realising they're that stupid but actually BEING that stupid. They're hypocrites plain and simple.

Leroy42

And Gove has now written to the EU asking for discussions about NI protocol and to extend the implementation.

Wasn't this the same Gove that said under no circumstances would they ask for an extension to the transition period?

It is actually quite a remarkable u turn by the UK Government which was adamant WTO were nothing to worry about but now are complaining about the fantastic deal they, due to Johnson getting one over the EU, they signed up to.

Taking back control by asking the EU to dig it out of its own hole!

Peregrinus

Gove is being quite canny here, I think. There's no doubt that, tactically, the EU has slipped up quite badly in threatening to invoke Art 16 over vaccines, and then having to withdraw that threat in double-quick time. This is nothing like as bad as dozens of things the UK has done, like threatening to violate the NI Protocol and maintaining that position for weeks, but when you really need one side to act as the adult in the room and you're used to the EU being that side, stuff-ups like this make a really bad impression.

It will give Brexit supporters in the UK grounds for some of their incoherent arguments about how the EU is an evil empire and how treating Northern Ireland as a third country is such a nasty thing to do that it proves the UK was right to choose to be treated as a third country, or something. That doesn't bother UvdL so much. She doesn't really care about the state of public opinion in the UK — why should she? But she is bothered by the fact that lots of people in the EU are astonished/annoyed/angry at her slip-up, and some of them are people who might quite like her job.

She needs to get things back on an even keel with the UK PDQ, so now is a good time for the UK to bring forward any suggestions it may have; she will be receptive. Plus, any policy shift by the UK can be presented for the domestic audience as a triumph; we have the EU on the run now, and we're taking advantage of that. So Gove has cover for policy shifts that he badly needs to make but that in other circumstances would be regarded by the certified loon wing as a betrayal of the Will of the People.

Hurrache

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Can’t find link now on phone, but bbc reported earlier inspections in larne stopped over loyalist threats to customs staff. That’s quite a development

That's from 24 hours ago, and it was just the DUP instigating either the rumour, or actual threats.

Peregrinus wrote: »

She needs to get things back on an even keel with the UK PDQ, so now is a good time for the UK to bring forward any suggestions it may have; she will be receptive. Plus, any policy shift by the UK can be presented for the domestic audience as a triumph; we have the EU on the run now, and we're taking advantage of that. So Gove has cover for policy shifts that he badly needs to make but that in other circumstances would be regarded by the certified loon wing as a betrayal of the Will of the People.

I don't agree. Her slip up doesn't mean all of a sudden the rest of the EU have become more reciprocal to the UK and what they want out of Brexit, despite already negotiating an agreement. The UK are going to get nothing to their advantage because as we all know, EU rules define what agreements etc are made, not the person at the head of the EU.

EU leaders are well aware of what's happening in the UK, they've certainly noted that they have threatened to invoke article 16 a couple of weeks ago, and have negotiated the agreement in bad faith when they threatened to make a law in the HoC in order to break an international agreement.

beggars_bush

The EU made a huge mistake last week with article 16.

Peregrinus

Hurrache wrote: »

I don't agree. Her slip up doesn't mean all of a sudden the rest of the EU have become more reciprocal to the UK and what they want out of Brexit, despite already negotiating an agreement. The UK are going to get nothing to their advantage because as we all know, EU rules define what agreements etc are made, not the person at the head of the EU.

EU leaders are well aware of what's happening in the UK, they've certainly noted that they have threatened to invoke article 16 a couple of weeks ago, and have negotiated the agreement in bad faith when they threatened to make a law in the HoC in order to break an international agreement.

Oh, I'm not suggesting the fundamentals of Brexit are up for grabs, or anything of the kind. Just that, when it comes to operating the NI Protocol, an awful lot of details is left to be decided by the Joint Committee (of which Gove is co-chair). The EU really, really wants the NI Protocol to work in practice, so they have an incentive to agree to things at the Jt Ctte that will make it work, and a particular incentive right now to make sure that it is seen to work. So if Gove wants an extension of this facility under the Protocol, or an accommodation on that, or an agreement as to how this other will work in practice, now is a good time for him to be asking for such things.

This has nothign to do with the UK's refusal to seek an extension of the transition period, and is not really comparable to it. The NI Protocol is not the transition period, and the NI Protocol was designed to be fine-tuned in operation along the way. That's what the Joint Comittee is for.

Peregrinus

beggars_bush wrote: »

The EU made a huge mistake last week with article 16.

They looked like they were goiung to make a huge mistake. They changed their minds before they made it. But even lookin like you're going to make a huge mistake is damaging, when you're the EU.

Sam Russell

Peregrinus wrote: »

They looked like they were goiung to make a huge mistake. They changed their minds before they made it. But even lookin like you're going to make a huge mistake is damaging, when you're the EU.

Why did they fail to consult the Irish side - either Mairead McGuinness or Simon Coveney or Micheal Martin?

The only thing I can think of is that the guard changed 15 months ago and the new lot were not aware of the battles fought over the details of Brexit and the bad faith of one side. Hopefully, it is a lesson learnt.

The EU will be 'flexible' on the NI protocol and extend some of the time scales, but overall it will remain as is. It always needed bedding in.

SPS matters are very important, and disease prevention is vital on the island.
Look at Covid and how it is being spread from NI to here, and how the DUP are making matters worse for petty political point scoring. The protocol is 7 weeks in operation, and already the DUP want it scrapped - well to be truthful, they always wanted it scrapped.

mick087

Peregrinus wrote: »

They looked like they were goiung to make a huge mistake. They changed their minds before they made it. But even lookin like you're going to make a huge mistake is damaging, when you're the EU.

It was a mistake.

Yes they corrected it but it was a mistake nevertheless.

FrancieBrady

beggars_bush wrote: »

The EU made a huge mistake last week with article 16.

I think the fact they admitted that immediately stands hugely to the EU.
I for one am proud of being in an organisation/union that can do that. The Unionists/Brexiteers can rant and rave about it, but ultimately they'll have to move on and reciprocate when they make mistakes, in a way they most certainly haven't for the repeated mistakes they have made in the past.

Enzokk

Anyone else catch Simon Coveney on BBC Radio 4 this morning? It starts around 1h49:40 into this catch up,

BBC Radio 4 Today Show

Nick Robinson was not great here, when Coveney was telling him what he didn't want to hear he tried to interrupt him quite aggressively. It seems to me that the object was to focus on the events of the weekend and suggest this is now a route to reopen Brexit for the UK. Coveney though correctly pointed out the tension towards trade was there before the weekend and this was caused by Brexit and not what happened the weekend.

I suspect that while the UK will have cause to ask for meetings, at the meetings this fact will be put down by the EU and it will shut down any progress the UK thinks it may win. Brexit caused this and the NI Protocol was the solution designed by both sides and that both agreed to. So meetings will be had, promises will be made to increase efforts to reduce the barriers to trade but nothing will happen with the NI Protocol.

If anything the UK will need to ensure that customs workers are not threatened by criminals and the DUP, while they may think they have a foothold and some leverage, will most likely be told that violence will not solve any problems and would lead to unity even sooner.

mick087

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I think the fact they admitted that immediately stands hugely to the EU.
I for one am proud of being in an organisation/union that can do that. The Unionists/Brexiteers can rant and rave about it, but ultimately they'll have to move on and reciprocate when they make mistakes, in a way they most certainly haven't for the repeated mistakes they have made in the past.

Who do you think this organisation should be accountable for this particular mistake?

FrancieBrady

mick087 wrote: »

Who do you think this organisation should be accountable for this particular mistake?

If people own up to a mistake immediately, I usually wouldn't be looking for accountability. I would be looking to fix the reasons why it happened, learn the lessons and move on.

Seth Brundle

mick087 wrote: »

Who do you think this organisation should be accountable for this particular mistake?

What do you believe should happen?

I told ya

BonnieSituation wrote: »

No one has ever stated that acceptance of the GFA is an acceptance of a UI.

That is literally the point of the GFA.

Are you not contradicting yourself?

I posted: Serious question: do you seriously think that we can come to an accommodation with a large proportion of the NI people? This was in clear reference to a UI from my earlier earlier posts.


You replied: We've already come to that accommodation. It's the GFA.


I replied: I accept it's an accommodation, but only within the ballpark of the GFA. I would not be of the view that one equals the other ie acceptance of the GFA equals acceptance of a UI. Not by a long shot is the GFA 'that accommodation'.

Back then people voted against the GFA. I don't know what % of the NI vote would be required to make it work. I would argue it would need to be very high.

A UI is a totally different ballpark.


You further replied: No one has ever stated that acceptance of the GFA is an acceptance of a UI.


Seems like a contradiction to me.

mick087

Seth Brundle wrote: »

What do you believe should happen?

Not sure what you mean with your question.
Are you saying that you believe the EU organization did make a mistake over article 16?
And that you would like to know what i think should happen because of the EU organization did in fact make a mistake?

Do you believe the EU organization did make a mistake triggering article 16?

listermint

I told ya wrote: »

Are you not contradicting yourself?

I posted: Serious question: do you seriously think that we can come to an accommodation with a large proportion of the NI people? This was in clear reference to a UI from my earlier earlier posts.


You replied: We've already come to that accommodation. It's the GFA.


I replied: I accept it's an accommodation, but only within the ballpark of the GFA. I would not be of the view that one equals the other ie acceptance of the GFA equals acceptance of a UI. Not by a long shot is the GFA 'that accommodation'.

Back then people voted against the GFA. I don't know what % of the NI vote would be required to make it work. I would argue it would need to be very high.

A UI is a totally different ballpark.


You further replied: No one has ever stated that acceptance of the GFA is an acceptance of a UI.


Seems like a contradiction to me.

As I said, money talks.thats it. You know it. I know it. And the majority in the north know it. You keep using the term large portion but I think you'll find the largest and overall portion don't want to return to the time before and only really care about peaceful economically stable life.