Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

An Ciarraioch wrote: »

The most laughable quote came in a reply to Stephen Farry: "Johnson says he doesn't want to see any barriers down the Irish Sea, or on the island of Ireland" !

The irony of DUP MP's of all people complaining about partitioning a country.

If they'd have honoured the deal they'd struck with May, one of the few actual Unionists in the party they could have portrayed themselves as standing up for the Union, NI's businesses and farmers as well as holding Westminster to account for risking a hard border. Life could have continued as normal, they'd have bunged a cool one billion pounds and at some point, nobody would remember the acronym "RHI".

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Best of luck to him unilaterally legislating changes to an International Treaty.

Oh he can legislate about it; it's known as "breaking the treaty in a small but intentional way" to the rest of the world however...

10000maniacs

Nody wrote: »

Oh he can legislate about it; it's known as "breaking the treaty in a small but intentional way" to the rest of the world however...

If he does anything he has threatened, he can kiss goodbye to the EU trade agreement.

mick087

tubercolossus wrote: »

This is the the tired old "the European Commission aren't ELECTED BY THE PEEPUL" trope again.

The EU was set up with the agreement of all members so that MEPs would be duly elected by member countries, and these would then nominate the commissioners. Here's an excerpt from the Parliament's website....

"Candidates (for Commissioner posts) for the remaining Commission portfolios have to go through a tough parliamentary vetting process too.

The Council, in agreement with the Commission President-elect, adopts a list of candidate commissioners, one for each member state. These Commissioners-designate appear before parliamentary committees in their prospective fields of responsibility. Each committee then meets to draw up its evaluation of the candidate's expertise and performance, which is sent to the President of the Parliament. A negative evaluation has prompted candidates in the past to withdraw from the process. The full Commission, including the Commission President and the High Representative for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, then needs to be approved in a single vote of consent by Parliament."

That's accountability, right there. On the other hand, as has been pointed out to you, UK governments are elected by the people using a First Past The Post (FPTP) system which many consider manifestly unfair and results in the same two parties (the same one party for the last decade) staying in power, usually with less than half of the vote. Also their upper house consists of entirely unelected people, some of them life peers, the others appointed by political patronage.

And you insinuate that the EU is undemocratic....

Everyone knows MEPs have no real power.
The power is with the EU commission and you full way know this.

Why is it not possible for a sitting MEP to be elected for the role of a commissioner?
What scares the EU commission about its citizens electing commissioners and holding them to account?
Again i ask who's interest is this unelected EU organisation serving?

The UK with its unelected monarch upper house etc is prime example why the EU unelected organisation needs to be more democratic and answerable to its citizens and not itself.

Yes the EU commission is undemocratic.

Tony Connolly explaining how/why Art 16 discussion/error arose - https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1356945290666901505.html

Makes sense, it is certainly poor that whomever was involved in furthering the discussion/error didn't realise the sensitivity of the subject. I hate arguing perception - but in this case perception is important.

20silkcut

mick087 wrote: »

Everyone knows MEPs have no real power.
The power is with the EU commission and you full way know this.

Why is it not possible for a sitting MEP to be elected for the role of a commissioner?
What scares the EU commission about its citizens electing commissioners and holding them to account?
Again i ask who's interest is this unelected EU organisation serving?

The UK with its unelected monarch upper house etc is prime example why the EU unelected organisation needs to be more democratic and answerable to its citizens and not itself.

Yes the EU commission is undemocratic.

I’d like to be able to vote for who becomes Taoiseach and what gets what in the cabinet etc but I can’t .

mick087

20silkcut wrote: »

I’d like to be able to vote for who becomes Taoiseach and what gets what in the cabinet etc but I can’t .

Our Taoiseach is a sitting TD.

MrMusician18

The British are now indicating that they will now use art. 16. Rather ironic that after the British hoo-ha over the commission faux-pas

Hurrache

10000maniacs wrote: »

Johnson has just threatened to trigger Article 16 in a response to a PMQ from Ian Paisley in the Commons.
"We will do all we need to do whether legislatively or triggering article 16 to ensure there is no barrier down the Irish Sea"

It's the second time, he also said weeks ago, in the HoC, that he'd have no hesitation doing it.

But then again, he also said today there won't be a border in the Irish sea, despite signing for that exact thing.

schmoo2k

MrMusician18 wrote: »

The British are now indicating that they will now use art. 16. Rather ironic that after the British hoo-ha over the commission faux-pas

I wonder if they will make a U turn on this at some point in the future?

schmoo2k

mick087 wrote: »

And in who's interest are the EU commission serving?

The EU27 - Taking Ireland as an example, we have benefitted enormously from being part of the EU.

Hurrache

FFS, his threat is to force a rethink in trade with N.I. He only signed and raised the deal in triumph just over a month again that included this trade deal.

20silkcut

mick087 wrote: »

Our Taoiseach is a sitting TD.

But I can’t vote him in or out. Only a tiny percentage of the population in cork north central or wherever have a say.

Democracy is not perfect. Democracy in the EU not perfect either.
Just cause you can’t vote directly for EU commissioners does not make it un-democratic.

Hurrache

20silkcut wrote: »

But I can’t vote him in or out. Only a tiny percentage of the population in cork north central or wherever have a say.

Democracy is not perfect. Democracy in the EU not perfect either.

You can, if you live in their constituency.

20silkcut

Hurrache wrote: »

You can, if you live in their constituency.

Right I will pack my bags.

Professor Moriarty

20silkcut wrote: »

But I can’t vote him in or out. Only a tiny percentage of the population in cork north central or wherever have a say.

Democracy is not perfect. Democracy in the EU not perfect either.
Just cause you can’t vote directly for EU commissioners does not make it in democratic.

You can vote for an array of candidates who may or may not vote for him as Taoiseach. Thank your lucky stars you don't live in Britain.

Hurrache

The Brit diplomacy again, stamp their feet demanding they get what they want, despite only signing the agreement and refusing to ask for an extension, or they'll threaten article 16.

Petulant, blackmail, perfidious etc having already agreed to all this. Morons to put it more bluntly.

Professor Moriarty

Hurrache wrote: »

The Brit diplomacy again, stamp their feet demanding they get what they want, despite only signing the agreement and refusing to ask for an extension, or they'll threaten article 16.

Petulant, blackmail, perfidious etc having already agree to all this. Morons to put it more bluntly.

It's all about populism and using Brexit to get re-elected.

20silkcut

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

You can vote for an array of candidates who may or may not vote for him as Taoiseach. Thank your lucky stars you don't live in Britain.

Just like you can vote for an array of MEPs to do the same in Europe.

Professor Moriarty

20silkcut wrote: »

Just like you can vote for an array of MEPs to do the same in Europe.

Exactly, except PR is even more democratic.

Hurrache

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

It's all about populism and using Brexit to get re-elected.

Certainly there's a large amount of that nonsense, but it has to point to the fact that he really doesn't understand what he signed up for and rushed to sign it in order to filter into populism.

They didn't even let it be debated properly in the HoC in order to rush it through.

Just have a laugh at this
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1356954609630261249

mick087

20silkcut wrote: »

Just like you can vote for an array of MEPs to do the same in Europe.

No this is not correct.

Ask yourself this.

How many EU commissioners was first elected to the role of MEP before the role of commissioner?
How many of the our governments cabinet are first elected by its citizens to that of an TD before the role of a minister?

You can then decide yourself which is a more democratic system.

Paranoid Bob

Hurrache wrote: »

Certainly there's a large amount of that nonsense, but it has to point to the fact that he really doesn't understand what he signed up for and rushed to sign it in order to filter into populism.

They didn't even let it be debated properly in the HoC in order to rush it through.

Just have a laugh at this
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1356954609630261249

What's this about 'continue to do business unfettered across the Irish Sea'?

Doesn't the right honourable gentleman know that one cannot 'continue' to do what one cannot now do?
He must know that NI businesses are not now trading unfettered across the Irish Sea.

Sam Russell

mick087 wrote: »

No this is not correct.

Ask yourself this.

How many EU commissioners was first elected to the role of MEP before the role of commissioner?
How many of the our governments cabinet are first elected by its citizens to that of an TD before the role of a minister?

You can then decide yourself which is a more democratic system.

This is a nonsense argument.

Each commissioner is nominated by the member state for that commissioner. A member state can elect its commissioner if that is its wish - no member state does so. If a democratic Gov does something within the law, that is then democratic.

The commission is then ratified by the MEPs individually and as a whole commission. The MEPs can sack the whole commission if they think it appropriate. That is all democratic.

No member of the House of Lords is elected, neither is the monarch. The FPTP means that many MPs are elected by a minority of voters. Also no UK Gov has enjoyed a majority vote by the populace since 1932, except for the coalition of Tory/LibDems in 2010 when Tories got 36%, Labour 29%, LibDems 23%. Big disparity between seats and votes.

It is a bit rich for the UK to claim anywhere is not democratic when their own system has so many flaws.

liamog

Remember when Mandelson was appointed to the cabinet in 2008. He wasn't an MP at the time (due to serving as EU trade commissioner), so they just gave him a peerage instead, all completely above board.

10000maniacs

Hurrache wrote: »

Certainly there's a large amount of that nonsense, but it has to point to the fact that he really doesn't understand what he signed up for and rushed to sign it in order to filter into populism.

They didn't even let it be debated properly in the HoC in order to rush it through.

Just have a laugh at this
https://twitter.com/DarranMarshall/status/1356954609630261249

Somebody tweeted "Paisley looks like he needs another holiday".

Sam Russell

liamog wrote: »

Remember when Mandelson was appointed to the cabinet in 2008. He wasn't an MP at the time, so they just gave him a peerage instead, all completely above board.

If you go back a bit further, the Tories made the 13 Earl of Home* prime minister in 1963 and was the last PM to be Prime minister while sitting in the House of Lords. I'm not sure if he was very active in the upper house before he became PM. They regularly appoint cabinet ministers and lesser ministers from the HoL.

Earl Home was unelected to anything in his life prior to his appointment by an unelected monarch. So how democratic was that?

*Home is pronounced hume according to those that know such things.

BonnieSituation

I told ya wrote: »

Talking of extrapolating, you're trying to make the claim that the GFA BP will automatically give a UI.

I'm not 'trying' to claim anything.

It would be easier for you to just read what's written.

I'm not extrapolating anything. I'm pointing out that a sizeable minority in NI voted against the GFA.

I'm not sure why you think that a vote in 1998 would be so relevant to a vote for a border poll.

The 'No' vote wasn't a homogeneous Unionist blob. You make this assumption that all that voted against the GFA would all vote against a UI.

That just doesn't bear out nor stand up to even the most basic scrutiny.

I'm of the opinion that there's a difference between a UI and a successful UI.

Okay?

You're entitled to your opinion so why not enjoy it.

Way to patronise. This is a discussion forum. If you don't want your points discussed then perhaps you shouldn't post them?

Enzokk

Couple of interesting tweets,

https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1356962454006284288?s=20

Seems like the UK isn't happy about the deal they negotiated, they now want a political solution to a technical problem (read legal). Basically they want the EU to forget the deal that was signed and to open the border between NI and the UK to allow for both no border on the island and no border in the sea.

We are basically back at the start of this whole mess, try putting that square peg into the round hole.

Here Leo Varadkar is asked about what is happening,

https://twitter.com/aoifegracemoore/status/1356950917132738560?s=20

He points out something which will be pointed out to Gove as well, the majority of parties in NI doesn't want a border on the island and would rather it be in the sea. There is only one party complaining at the moment and the UK Government cannot just go along with the DUP and ignore the rest of the NI political parties or voters.

BonnieSituation

10000maniacs wrote: »

Johnson has just threatened to trigger Article 16 in a response to a PMQ from Ian Paisley in the Commons.
"We will do all we need to do whether legislatively or triggering article 16 to ensure there is no barrier down the Irish Sea"

Remember over the weekend when we were told that we should trust the UK...