Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

Q: What is the difference between a [FTA with no tariffs and no quotas] and a [Customs Union and the Single Market]?

Ans from a Brexiteer: Sovereignty.

Ans from a fisherman: Rotting fish and bankruptcy.

Ans from a shellfish dealer: No exports and bankruptcy.

Ans from a Welsh sheep farmer: No exports and bankruptcy.

Ans from an EU truck driver: Mansfield airport for three days - and I am not coming back.

Ans from Holyhead: What happened all the trucks and ferries?

It depends on who you ask. Happy Brexiteers appear to have gone to ground.

Enzokk

And let us just bask in the current solution to the EU "triggering article 16" on Friday is the UK triggering article 16.

So the EU doing it is absolutely a threat to the GFA and the NI Protocol, but the UK doing it is just fine and nothing to see. But then again we are talking about the party that backed Brexit instead of seeing it for what it really is.

mick087

Sam Russell wrote: »

This is a nonsense argument.

Each commissioner is nominated by the member state for that commissioner. A member state can elect its commissioner if that is its wish - no member state does so. If a democratic Gov does something within the law, that is then democratic.

The commission is then ratified by the MEPs individually and as a whole commission. The MEPs can sack the whole commission if they think it appropriate. That is all democratic.

No member of the House of Lords is elected, neither is the monarch. The FPTP means that many MPs are elected by a minority of voters. Also no UK Gov has enjoyed a majority vote by the populace since 1932, except for the coalition of Tory/LibDems in 2010 when Tories got 36%, Labour 29%, LibDems 23%. Big disparity between seats and votes.

It is a bit rich for the UK to claim anywhere is not democratic when their own system has so many flaws.

The EU has its own president we its citizens won't elect,
it has a foreign minister we won't elect, and a military function.
They are creating a federal Europe run by people we don't elect.
You and I are citizens of that state whether we wanted it or not.

CelticRambler

Enzokk wrote: »

Couple of interesting tweets,

https://twitter.com/pkelso/status/1356962454006284288?s=20

Seems like the UK isn't happy about the deal they negotiated, they now want a political solution to a technical problem (read legal). Basically they want the EU to forget the deal that was signed and to open the border between NI and the UK to allow for both no border on the island and no border in the sea.

We are basically back at the start of this whole mess, try putting that square peg into the round hole.

But ... but ... but ... these are only teething problems, aren't they? Temporary, didn't someone say? Why do we need a political solution to a problem that's going to go away of its own accord in due course? :rolleyes:

I know this is going to sound like a detour into "Brit bashing" but it was widely rumoured that the Irish representatives in Brussels, way back at the beginning of all this, warned the EU to be wary of any promises made by the British. As if Johnson's disrespect for his own Constitution wasn't enough, or his antics around the IMB, here we are now, less than five weeks into the New Reality and already the British are whinging about what they agreed to, an arrangement drafted according to their red lines, and worked out according to their timetable.

While I acknowledge the possibility that there might be a cunning Govian strategy in play, as suggested by Peregrinus above, overall, the Johnson-Cummings bravado has proven to be - as foreseen by most of us here - a giant and amateurish miscalculation. Brexit is done; the Last Minute has passed; the Deal is signed ... and from this day forth, the EU can take its sweet time responding to any requests from the fully sovereign, independent UK for any future change in the rules.

J Mysterio

Emma DeSouza - she of Irish/ UK passport rights fame - has an article in the Irish Times about political Unionism and their attempts to undermine the NI protocol and stir trouble.

In the space of a week we’ve seen an alarming increase of threats in the form of graffiti, increased calls from political unionism to scrap the Northern Irish protocol, threats and intimidation to staff working at the ports in Belfast and Larne and an impressive display of mental gymnastics by political unionism which condemned the EU commissions misstep on Article 16 only to subsequently demand that the British government itself invoke Article 16

...

There are few as skilled in the art of whataboutery as those who’ve made a career of it as Northern Irish political representatives. Unionist politicians seeking to lay blame for the out-workings of Brexit upon the parties who actively campaigned against it exemplifies the issue. At its core, this dangerous rhetoric is but a poor attempt at deflecting responsibility for the effects of such a reckless national endeavour; a responsibility that lies firmly at the feet of the DUP.

Despite how ridiculous the DUP are (they are always ridiculous), must say there seems to be a level of coordination here between the party and other elements in the community.

Hurrache

J Mysterio wrote: »

Despite how ridiculous the DUP are (they are always ridiculous), must say there seems to be a level of coordination here between the party and other elements in the community.

Of that I have no doubt. I said it yesterday that the DUP bringing along a paramilitary group to a conference call with the NIO, which the NIO seemed to have allowed, was a big red flag.

There's CCTV from either yesterday or today of a masked group of men roaming the streets of Belfast, initially believed to the loyalist paramilitaries involved in an internal dispute.

However, as apt then for one side is now for the other, they haven't gone away you know.

liamog

mick087 wrote: »

The EU has its own president we its citizens won't elect,
it has a foreign minister we won't elect, and a military function.
They are creating a federal Europe run by people we don't elect.
You and I are citizens of that state whether we wanted it or not.

The UK has an unelected monarch, and a foreign minister that is appointed from a pool of candidates limited to being a member of the houses of parliament (Commons directly elected, Lords appointed or life peers).

Which EU president are you talking about?
President of the Parliament, elected by democratically elected members of the European Parliament (same as the UK Prime Minister)
President of the Council, elected by the democratically elected leaders of the each European Member States (not too dissimilar from how a coalition leader is "elected")
President of the Commission, proposed by the Council (i.e. democratically elected leaders of European Member States), with a confirmation i.e. opportunity to reject by democratically elected MEPs.

jimd2

fly_agaric wrote: »

She's on the Commission of course but her role is afair nothing to do with trade at all, she was not involved in any Brexit negotiations, and she's also very new to the job. People have (possibly) been shot for less in this country, but I have (edit: idly) wondered if Hogan's absence from the Commission did not help us (or indeed the EU!) here...er perhaps I should not have posted that!:pac:

I have been thinking the same.

We will never know - just as we never know when issues are prevented.

I do suspect that Big Phil would have been much closer to the decision making in Brussels and would have had more contacts and respect and this issue may well have not arisen if he had still been in there.

The Irish government were not informed during the decision making process - Phil was probably our best placed person to keep as close as possible to the seat of power to the EU and, as many said at the time, better to have him inside than outside.

schmoo2k

mick087 wrote: »

The EU has its own president we its citizens won't elect,
it has a foreign minister we won't elect, and a military function.
They are creating a federal Europe run by people we don't elect.
You and I are citizens of that state whether we wanted it or not.

The majority want to be in the EU and are happy with how the commission gets appointed via democratically elected representatives. Some of us older ones remember what it was like prior to being part of the EU (not good).

Not sure why I am replying as I don't understand what point you are trying to make (apart from coming off as an Irexit wannabe?)

yagan

mick087 wrote: »

The EU has its own president we its citizens won't elect,
it has a foreign minister we won't elect, and a military function.
They are creating a federal Europe run by people we don't elect.
You and I are citizens of that state whether we wanted it or not.

That looks like a cut and paste. Where did you get it from?

VinLieger

liamog wrote: »

The UK has an unelected monarch, and a foreign minister that is appointed from a pool of candidates limited to being a member of the houses of parliament (Commons directly elected, Lords appointed or life peers).

Which EU president are you talking about?
President of the Parliament, elected by democratically elected members of the European Parliament (same as the UK Prime Minister)
President of the Council, elected by the democratically elected leaders of the each European Member States (not too dissimilar from how a coalition leader is "elected")
President of the Commission, proposed by the Council (i.e. democratically elected leaders of European Member States), with a confirmation i.e. opportunity to reject by democratically elected MEPs.

This is far from the first time this poster has made these ridiculous claims, they've had it explained and been shown the simple comparison charts multiple times but always return every few months to try make the same easily refutable claims about the EU being undemocratic. Don't waste too much of your time i would suggest.

Hurrache

yagan wrote: »

That looks like a cut and paste. Where did you get it from?

LOL, https://www.irishtimes.com/news/lisbon-treaty-will-turn-eu-into-a-fully-fledged-federal-state-says-benn-1.921127

He's actually quoting Tony Benn from the time of the Lisbon Treaty.

And this poster has claimed that he doesn't regurgitate stuff he reads.

pleasant Co.

yagan wrote: »

That looks like a cut and paste. Where did you get it from?

Tony Benn commenting on the Lisbon Treaty, article from the irish times in 2008:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/lisbon-treaty-will-turn-eu-into-a-fully-fledged-federal-state-says-benn-1.921127

"It will have its own president we won't elect, it will have a foreign minister we won't elect, and a military function. In effect they are creating a federal Europe run by people we don't elect . . . You and I are citizens of that state whether we wanted it or not."

VinLieger

yagan wrote: »

That looks like a cut and paste. Where did you get it from?

Tony Benn a Labour MP

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/lisbon-treaty-will-turn-eu-into-a-fully-fledged-federal-state-says-benn-1.921127

Although i suspect they doesnt know this and are just pasting it from some facebook group

mick087

Hurrache wrote: »

LOL, https://www.irishtimes.com/news/lisbon-treaty-will-turn-eu-into-a-fully-fledged-federal-state-says-benn-1.921127

He's actually quoting Tony Benn from the time of the Lisbon Treaty.

And this poster has claimed that he doesn't regurgitate stuff he reads.

I didn't just read this i was at his speech at Trinity.

Much of what he said at that speech i would also believe in myself.

mick087

VinLieger wrote: »

Tony Benn a Labour MP

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/lisbon-treaty-will-turn-eu-into-a-fully-fledged-federal-state-says-benn-1.921127

Although i suspect they doesnt know this and are just pasting it from some facebook group

That is not correct and uncalled for.

yagan

mick087 wrote: »

I didn't just read this i was at his speech at Trinity.

Much of what he said at that speech i would also believe in myself.

How's that working out for you?

mick087

VinLieger wrote: »

This is far from the first time this poster has made these ridiculous claims, they've had it explained and been shown the simple comparison charts multiple times but always return every few months to try make the same easily refutable claims about the EU being undemocratic. Don't waste too much of your time i would suggest.

Because you explain to me your idea of democracy does not mean you are right.

CelticRambler

Yesterday, it was the high-end fashion industry highlighting the impending doom caused by Brexit; today, it's the opposite end of the spectrum: Second-hand clothing mountain piles up as Brexit halts exports to EU

Why? Well, it's our old friend "rules of origin" again ...

ECS Textiles, with a turnover of about £2m per year and hubs across the UK, collects clothes and bric-a-brac from charity shops and homes and resells these items to the continent, raising thousands of pounds per week for good causes including veterans’ charities, animal welfare and the NHS.

The company has fallen foul of rules of origin requirements. UK goods are eligible for zero-tariff sales in the EU. But because most of the goods ECS is exporting were produced in China, port authorities in Latvia are threatening to charge 5.3% tariffs – or border taxes. The charge would eviscerate the profits required to keep the company running and raising funds for charity.

If only, if only, if only there'd been time for someone to publish a draft agreement and seek feedback from the sectors concerned.

Still, I'm sure a political solution can be found (and these are only teething problems anyway, but maybe the Tories can bung the charities a few quid to tide them over ...) :rolleyes:

Zubeneschamali

yagan wrote: »

That looks like a cut and paste. Where did you get it from?

Google says its Tony Benn talking about Lisbon in 2008.

yagan

mick087 wrote: »

Because you explain to me your idea of democracy does not mean you are right.

North Korea calls itself a democratic republic, and before rebranding Ian Paisley called his party the Protestant Unionist Party.

tubercolossus

mick087 wrote: »

Because you explain to me your idea of democracy does not mean you are right.

Democracy is democracy. It isn't just someone's "what I reckon".

Anyway, it's a pity Tony Benn (who I actually admired) didn't give a timeframe for those assertions of his in 2008. Thirteen years would seem to be pushing things a bit. You'd think these unelected elites in Brussels would have advanced their agenda more than they have by now, gotta say.

20silkcut

liamog wrote: »

Remember when Mandelson was appointed to the cabinet in 2008. He wasn't an MP at the time (due to serving as EU trade commissioner), so they just gave him a peerage instead, all completely above board.

Worse still they shift cabinet members and high profile MPs around to safe seats to ensure they are elected. Wasn’t Churchill shifted from pillar to post to ensure he held a seat. Ended up being MP in Dundee despite hardly ever setting foot in it.

tubercolossus

CelticRambler wrote: »

Yesterday, it was the high-end fashion industry highlighting the impending doom caused by Brexit; today, it's the opposite end of the spectrum: Second-hand clothing mountain piles up as Brexit halts exports to EU

Why? Well, it's our old friend "rules of origin" again ...


If only, if only, if only there'd been time for someone to publish a draft agreement and seek feedback from the sectors concerned.

Still, I'm sure a political solution can be found (and these are only teething problems anyway, but maybe the Tories can bung the charities a few quid to tide them over ...) :rolleyes:

Jesus, the incompetence is actually criminal at this stage. When Johnson said "Fúck business"? This is what he meant. Dunphy on The Stand podcast had a quote about Johnson saying - or someone saying about him - that he 'believed in nothing'. This is how that worldview plays out when you put someone like him behind the wheel of a ship of state.

Quin_Dub

Let's park the conversation on the EU and whether it is Democratic or not.

It's outside the scope of this thread , feel free to start a separate discussion should you wish

Thanks

yagan

tubercolossus wrote: »

Dunphy on The Stand podcast had a quote about Johnson saying - or someone saying about him - that he 'believed in nothing'.

Interesting. It reminds of articles about the ethos of Eton being about producing rulers, not leaders with values, character or depth.

tubercolossus

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Lisbon threads from over a decade ago, some dejavu there

It be fun to go over them and see how euro sceptics predictions panned out. I am still waiting to be conscripted into EU army ��

It's interesting to read the whole piece and realise that Benn's predictions included a warning that it (the Lisbon Treaty) was 'dangerous' and 'could lead to nationalism'. He didn't realise that he was correct, but that it was his own country that would fatally succumb to it.

Also, that "you and I will be a part of it whether we like it or not". Well, he's dead now, but, not anymore Tone. Not for your countrymen anyhow.

tubercolossus

tubercolossus wrote: »

It's interesting to read the whole piece and realise that Benn's predictions included a warning that it (the Lisbon Treaty) was 'dangerous' and 'could lead to nationalism'. He didn't realise that he was correct, but that it was his own country that would fatally succumb to it.

Also, that "you and I will be a part of it whether we like it or not". Well, he's dead now, but, not anymore Tone. Not for your countrymen anyhow.

From what I remember, Benn was never a supporter of the EEC anyway.

fiveleavesleft

Deleted User wrote: »

From what I remember, Benn was never a supporter of the EEC anyway.

He was in the Sixties, think he tried to push Labour in being a pro-join party. He shifted in the Seventies & then just hardened.

Junkyard Tom

Britain fucking around again. Tony Connelly on Gove's letter to the EU:

11/ the letter sets out six demands. These actually relate to the difficulties that everyone knew existed before last Friday. However, Gove says the UK "believes that we should reach agreement this week" on the demands, ie the EU has 48 hours to agree to these.

---

28/ All of which suggests - although I could well be wrong - that the UK is softening people up, and laying the ground work, to triggering Article 16

Source