Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Saren Arterius

Strazdas wrote: »

57% of the British population did not vote for the current government or PM - also means they have no direct representation from their constituency in Parliament.

And each of the other parties got less votes. Far less.

Britain is a democracy. The EU isn't. The EU Parliament isn't even a real parliament.

Saren Arterius

View wrote: »

Polls aren’t referenda.

And their results definitely don’t constitute a majority voting for FPTP in a referendum. If their results did count as such we could dispense with elections and referenda.

You're one of those people who believe some polls but not others, whichever is convenient for you.

View

Saren Arterius wrote: »

It's not undemocratic, though, is it? The party with the most seats - and usually the most votes - wins. Even if it got less than 50% of the vote, it's still higher than each of the other parties.

The difference between Britain and the EU is that Britain is a democracy.

It is undemocratic. A majority opposing you is a clear result. Or does “the will of the people” principle only apply on selective occasions?

Saren Arterius

View wrote: »

It is undemocratic.

And yet in 2016, the UK was ranked as the 16th most democratic nation in the world. Not surprising, really, considering Great Britain is a beacon of democracy around the world.

I wonder how the EU would have fared on that list.

View

Saren Arterius wrote: »

You're one of those people who believe some polls but not others, whichever is convenient for you.

I don’t believe that polls are anything other than a random sample (at best).

They certainly aren’t “democracy in action” like an election or referendum would (or should) be.

jimmycrackcorm

Saren Arterius wrote: »

The reality hasn't been very different at all.

The reality is that recent days have shown that Britain is far better off outside of that anti-democratic, bureaucratic, declining superstate. The vaccine debacle - imagine what a terrible state Britain would be in now in terms of vaccines had it stayed in the EU or joined its disastrous vaccine procurement programme, which many Remainers condemned Boris for not joining (though many of them are now backtracking and apologising) - proves that the EU needs Britain more than Britain needs the EU.

As for that unelected kiddie-sniffer in the White House, who cares? What's he going to do?

Sorry - couldn't resist the trolling.

What superstate? The UK is a super state and is totally undemocratic. Remember UKIP got over 12% votes in 2015 but only one MP because of the undemocratic nature of their system. Tha means 12% of the people don't get representation.

Scotland and NI are countries within the UK that voted against Brexit, only NI got it's partial wish thanks to the EU.

As for the Vaccine debacle? The UK rushed in with their approvals, as we all know the Tories don't actually care about the people; as a consequence, they give the AstraZeneca vaccine to over 65's even though it's not proven as effective. But hey, they can say they're vaccinating quicker than the EU.

Anyway, we need the UK more than the EU, or maybe just amazon.co.uk for now.
I think a positive upside for Brexit for us is demonstrated in the new ferry services put in place to sideline the landbridge where we will trade less with the UK and integrate more directly with the EU.

jimmycrackcorm

Saren Arterius wrote: »

And each of the other parties got less votes. Far less.

Britain is a democracy. The EU isn't. The EU Parliament isn't even a real parliament.

House of Lords.... :pac::pac::pac::pac:

Saren Arterius

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

House of Lords.... :pac::pac::pac::pac:

It has very little power, and doesn't vote down legislation enacting a government's manifesto commitments.

Strazdas

Saren Arterius wrote: »

And each of the other parties got less votes. Far less.

Britain is a democracy. The EU isn't. The EU Parliament isn't even a real parliament.

One of the reasons that interest in politics in England is practically non existent is that people perceive the system to be undemocratic and unchangeable. A two party system and if you live in a safe seat, your vote is meaningless.

View

Saren Arterius wrote: »

And yet in 2016, the UK was ranked as the 16th most democratic nation in the world. Not surprising, really, considering Great Britain is a beacon of democracy around the world.

I wonder how the EU would have fared on that list.

Anyone can do “a ranking” but they are often meaningless, since it all depends on who does them and how they do it.

And, in “the beacon of democracy”, the referendum held in 2016 failed to meet the standards for referenda devised by the Swiss - the referenda fanatics - in the (non-EU) Council of Europe as there was no status quo option on offer in the referendum (a mandatory part of the standard), Voting Remain in the referendum meant endorsing “remain but on altered, and weaker/less engaged, terms”, NOT “just leave all terms the way they are now”.

Saren Arterius

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Sorry - couldn't resist the trolling.

What superstate? The UK is a super state and is totally undemocratic

Not according to the 2019 Democracy Index, in which Britain ranked 16th and was declared a "Full Democracy."

It's the EU that's undemocratic.

Scotland and NI are countries within the UK that voted against Brexit

So what? The UK voted leave. And it left.

As for the Vaccine debacle? The UK rushed in with their approvals

And now it's reaping the rewards. Thank God for Brexit.

as a consequence, they give the AstraZeneca vaccine to over 65's even though it's not proven as effective.

Claims that the Oxford/AstraZeneca Covid vaccine is not effective for people over the age of 65 are inaccurate, and originated from a mistake in a German news report.

The vaccine has been fully tested and was found to be efficient for people of all age groups, prior to being accepted by regulators late last year.

Yesterday (26 Jan), German newspaper, Handelsblatt, printed the false claim that the AstraZeneca Covid vaccine is only eight per cent effective in people over the age of 65. The article supposedly cited German government officials.

‘Completely incorrect’

Elsewhere in the German press, the tabloid Bild published a report claiming that the vaccine is unlikely to be approved by the European Medicines Agency (EMA) for use on over-65s.

AstraZeneca immediately refuted the falsehoods about the vaccine’s effectiveness in older people, describing the articles in the German press as “completely incorrect.”

In a statement, AstraZeneca said: “Reports that the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine efficacy is as low as 8% in adults over 65 years are completely incorrect. In the UK, the JCVI supported use in this population and MHRA included this group without dose adjustment in the authorisation for emergency supply.

“In November we published data in The Lancet demonstrating that older adults showed strong immune responses to the vaccine, with 100 er cent of older adults generating spike-specific antibodies after the second dose.”

Speaking to Politico’s Playbook, a UK government official said: “The efficacy claims circulating in the German media are unsubstantiated and incorrect.”

Where did the mistaken claim come from?
Some experts pointed out that the proportion of people over the age of 65 who took part in the study cited by the German press was eight per cent.

This seems to have been the source of the confusion, as the German Health Ministry later denied the report in Handelsblatt, saying that eight per cent referred to the number of people in the study between 56 and 69 years old, according to Politico’s Alex Wickham.

Anyway, we need the UK more than the EU, or maybe just amazon.co.uk for now.
I think a positive upside for Brexit for us is demonstrated in the new ferry services put in place to sideline the landbridge where we will trade less with the UK and integrate more directly with the EU.

I certainly wouldn't want to be in Ireland's shoes when the EU goes under. It's not going to be much fun for you.

View

Saren Arterius wrote: »

It has very little power, and doesn't vote down legislation enacting a government's manifesto commitments.

So both undemocratic and useless.

Saren Arterius

View wrote: »

So both undemocratic and useless.

So undemocratic that it rarely votes down legislation and never votes down manifesto promise.

axer

Hurrache wrote: »

None reported that they did, none with any sense anyway.

Actually I see Tony Connolly reporting that they did trigger it so I think he is credible enough to accept that they did in fact trigger it.

"However, by Friday the vaccine issue took an explosive turn, when the commission triggered Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol."

Peregrinus

Depends on what you mean by "trigger". To make Art 16 operational you actually have to apply your safeguard measure - in this case, introduce an authorisation requirement for exports of vaccine over the RoI/NI border. No authorisation requirement was ever introduced. The EU announced that it would introduce a requirement for authorisation but, before actually doing so, announced that, after all, it would not.

So when Connolly says that the Commission "triggered" Art 16 he means that it announced that the EU would do what Art 16 permits. But the EU never actually did what Art 16 permits.

axer

Peregrinus wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by "trigger". To make Art 16 operational you actually have to apply your safeguard measure - in this case, introduce an authorisation requirement for exports of vaccine over the RoI/NI border. No authorisation requirement was ever introduced. The EU announced that it would introduce a requirement for authorisation but, before actually doing so, announced that, after all, it would not.

So when Connolly says that the Commission "triggered" Art 16 he means that it announced that the EU would do what Art 16 permits. But the EU never actually did what Art 16 permits.

My reading of the actual agreement says unless there are exceptional circumstances then the triggering side has to allow for 1 month for talks before actually taking action so it wouldnt be expected that they would have actuary taken the action. The only thing that is not clear is whether they did any notification through the joint committee - I think it he be doubtful that they did but I don't know for sure.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

I understand that there are a majority of posters here that have probably convinced themselves the EU are in control of things in NI but in reality they have shown a distinct lack of resolve.What are they going to do if there's another graffiti incident?Keep waving wagons through?

Are you suggesting that the EU take active measures to interfere with the day-to-day policing of a constituent part of the United Kingdom? Such a suggestion would surely represent an attack on the UK's sovereignty? Not least an admission that the British government is incapable of ensuring the safety and lawful compliance of its citizens.

listermint

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Unelected hereditary head of state

No constitution

Need I go on? Brits lecturing us on them being a democracy is hilarious

'Brits'.

This is the internet there are alot of claims. Don't accept that most are true.

RobMc59

breezy1985 wrote: »

So the EU are not in control but are simultaneously in control of every aspect of our lives.

Schrodingers dictatorship

The EU hasn't covered itself in glory in the last few days.As Sam points out,they panicked over thr phantom article 16 fiasco and now their lack of resolve is there for all to see.
The actions of Unionist activists has caught everyone out but the UK suggesting an extension period would take the anger out of the situation.I have no time for Johnson and co and gove is particularly obnoxious but I believe they are actually correct in suggesting this.

McGiver

Saren Arterius wrote:

It's ANTI-democratic.

Anti-democratic is a nonsensical term. It makes no sense.

It was invented by the Tory idiots few months ago during the brexit negotiations and they were all parroting it in a concerted way, clearly an organised PR campaign.

There's literally no other country in the EEA and UK, that is so undemocratic in its constitutional setup than the UK.

The UK elites have no right to speak about other EU countries' state of democracy. They should shut up.

McGiver

RobMc59 wrote:

The EU hasn't covered itself in glory in the last few days.

Your point is?

schmoo2k

RobMc59 wrote: »

The EU hasn't covered itself in glory in the last few days.As Sam points out,they panicked over thr phantom article 16 fiasco and now their lack of resolve is there for all to see.
The actions of Unionist activists has caught everyone out but the UK suggesting an extension period would take the anger out of the situation.I have no time for Johnson and co and gove is particularly obnoxious but I believe they are actually correct in suggesting this.

I am unable to see our lack of resolve - if anything the opposite?

The UK would want to get on top of these so called "activists" (do activists threaten peoples lives?)

fash

RobMc59 wrote: »

The EU hasn't covered itself in glory in the last few days.As Sam points out,they panicked over thr phantom article 16 fiasco and now their lack of resolve is there for all to see.
The actions of Unionist activists has caught everyone out but the UK suggesting an extension period would take the anger out of the situation.I have no time for Johnson and co and gove is particularly obnoxious but I believe they are actually correct in suggesting this.

I agree that the EU needs to show resolve and tell the English to go f themselves.
I disagree that the actions of unionists have caught everyone unaware - they've clearly been orchestrated by the DUP - based on the acquiescence or instruction of the Tories.

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

The EU hasn't covered itself in glory in the last few days.As Sam points out,they panicked over thr phantom article 16 fiasco and now their lack of resolve is there for all to see.
The actions of Unionist activists has caught everyone out but the UK suggesting an extension period would take the anger out of the situation.I have no time for Johnson and co and gove is particularly obnoxious but I believe they are actually correct in suggesting this.

Dunno how pretty much immediately acknowledging a mistake shows lack of resolve. You would have appreciated them more if they stuck resolutely with invoking the article? If anything it just shows there's no winning with you.

The actions of the unionists has surprised nobody with a passing familiarity with them. They brought their paramilitary thugs along to their meeting with the NIO and sure didn't they themselves ask for the article to be invoked a few weeks ago?

A bad blunder though it was I think we can mostly agree ultimately it is irrelevant as the EU were quick to acknowledge their mistake and reverse it. Mistakes in a similar vein are less likely in the future given the fallout.

All that being said I’ve been quite surprised by the Irish Time’s coverage of the issue - they seem quite keen on whipping up outrage over it with numerous articles the last few days emphasising what a fiasco it was, but very few highlighting that literally nothing happened in the end.

The Raging Bile Duct

Batrachotox wrote: »

A bad blunder though it was I think we can mostly agree ultimately it is irrelevant as the EU were quick to acknowledge their mistake and reverse it. Mistakes in a similar vein are less likely in the future given the fallout.

All that being said I’ve been quite surprised by the Irish Time’s coverage of the issue - they seem quite keen on whipping up outrage over it with numerous articles the last few days emphasising what a fiasco it was, but very few highlighting that literally nothing happened in the end.

It was a fiasco. Though the EU did nothing in the end, the UK and Michael Gove are making hay with it and using what happened to justify pricking about with the NI protocol which causes major headaches for the Republic and will see an escalation of tensions in the North.

Hurrache

They've justified nothing though. They're playing up to their electorate, nobody outside of the UK buy anything from them, and certainly nobody thinks anything is justified. If anything, they're a laughing stock.

Like I said, everyone seems to be forgetting that the DUP and the UK government had already threatened to invoke the article, why are people glossing over that? Because they're just a bunch of sabre rattlers acting petulantly over something they themselves negotiated and waived in the air as a great success.

The Raging Bile Duct

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

It was a fiasco. Though the EU did nothing in the end, the UK and Michael Gove are making hay with it and using what happened to justify pricking about with the NI protocol which causes major headaches for the Republic and will see an escalation of tensions in the North.

I agree it was a fiasco but as you and I have acknowledged the EU did nothing in the end and nothing changed as a result.

Yes it has given ammunition to the likes of Gove and the DUP but what I’m asking is why are the IT legitimating that ammunition by stoking up further outrage on what was ultimately a non event. As opposed to pointing out that the UK had threatened to invoke article 16 prior to all this and that nothing on the Northern Ireland situation has materially changed.

The Raging Bile Duct

Hurrache wrote: »

They've justified nothing though. They're playing up to their electorate, nobody outside of the UK buy anything from them, and certainly nobody thinks anything is justified. If anything, they're a laughing stock.

They don't seem to give two figs about their international reputation given the harm they've already done to it so why would they suddenly start caring about what anyone outside the UK thinks? They are out to cause as much disruption that they can and we're going to be the ones that suffer the most from it.

Hurrache

They do seem to have notions about themselves and think they're at the centre of EUs priorities, despite EU wide surveys and government saying otherwise.

It's all a show to hide the fact they've no idea what they're doing.

Plenty of commentators and journalists have been pointing out the hole they've dug themselves into
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1357230196840103936