Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959763#Comment_119959763

I don't disagree. I think the issue is a forensically-minded leadership is so petrified of losing a fifth consecutive election that they're unwilling to take any risks whatsoever. Corbyn was the first to call for the triggering of Article 50, beating both Johnson and Farage to that. I think the old left are quite hostile to free movement based on personal experience but this created more friction between moderates and the left, metropolitans and the regions, young and old Labour, etc.

The "Get Brexit done" slogan was focused grouped to death by Lynton Crosby and co and clearly it worked for good reason.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959414#Comment_119959414

There is an answer available that acknowledges the complications and lack of desire among much of the British population to rejoin the EU or the SM, and does not suggest a large degree of economic incompetency though.

It's a bad answer and Labour are risking being almost as dysfunctional about the EU and Brexit as the Tories at this point. Having the public basis of your policy being demonstrably false is not a good starting point.

yagan

Obviously yes, but now there's two distinct queues for EU/eea citizens entering schengen, and the other new queue for everyone else.

They had scanners in the other lane I hadn't seen before whereas we passed through with just a quick scan of our passport card as before.

From what I could see the UK queue had to scan their passport and wait for photo scan of their face to match.

I've seen them before entering Australia and it can be a slow process.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959336#Comment_119959336

Absolutely, but doesn't that leave everyone rather unclear as to who Starmer is and what he stands for? Is he actually a closet right winger and Eurosceptic who doesn't particularly like the EU? Nobody can really say with any definitive certainty what he is if he's coming out with Brexity statements to please the Red Wall xenophobes.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960375#Comment_119960375

He very pro EU before and after the vote. Its definitely an over the top play for the red wall.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960430#Comment_119960430

It's definitely an indication of how effed up UK politics is then if he cannot state his real opinions in public and has to campaign for things he doesn't even believe in.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960449#Comment_119960449

He is right that there is no going back to the SM any time soon at least so that then makes it hard to say going back is good at the same time.

Fr Tod Umptious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960449#Comment_119960449

What's even more effed up is, (as stated in that great FT video posted here a few weeks back) that the policies of a fringe party UKIP in 2015, i.e not being in the CU is now the policy of the UKs two largest parties.

How the fcuk did that happen?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960569#Comment_119960569

Historians will have a field day with the last six years.

My own theory is that the archaic UK political system and lack of a constitution simply couldn't cope with all the bad players that emerged : that spiv Cameron and his utter sham of a referendum, Boris Johnson, the Brexiteers in general, the right wing press and their billionaire owners. The system was dependent on there being decent and honourable people in politics : once the frauds and the shysters came along with their right wing populism and xenophobia, the whole thing fell apart.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960569#Comment_119960569

Years and years of all parties lying to the people by taking personal credit for everything good the EU done and making them the scapegoat for every bad thing in the UK.

You won't see too many "funded by the EU" signs in England.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960471#Comment_119960471

So pivot to that as your answer. "The reality is that this country needs stability, now is not the time for that discussion" etc etc...

"There is no economic advantage to being in the SM" is demonstrably false and thus you once again have the perverse scenario of a pillar of your policy resting on an outright fabrication. It is not sustainable.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960649#Comment_119960649

He shouldn't have said the second bit. Its one thing to say there is no going back but he doesn't need to add any extra bits. He should really just be saying as little as possible on the subject.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960649#Comment_119960649

Indeed, saying that the Single Market would not boost economic growth is a downright lie and very hard to justify.

Also, there is a danger that even if he was to try and pivot towards Europe if he was PM, people could say "Hang on, you said such and such before the election i.e. that were no benefits to Single Market access and no benefits to freedom of movement". That's why I'm puzzled at those who say it's quite okay for Starmer to lie for the next two years and pretend to be a hardcore Brexiteer to get elected and then somehow magic all this away once he's in power. Wouldn't that mean him being elected under false pretences in fact?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119960961#Comment_119960961

Not a hope he will pivot all the way back to freedom of movement. People are not yet ready to admit they made a massive mistake on that one.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119961782#Comment_119961782

I totally get the strategy and the reasoning behind it all. But it still strikes me as a tad risky - if he says for two years flat that the Single Market has no benefits at all for the UK and that he's opposed to freedom of movement, he may be creating a rod for his back. The right wing media can simply play back these clips and claim he was a liar who was elected under false pretences.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119961818#Comment_119961818

It would only be false if he does rejoin the SM which I don't think he will. Freedom of movement is still political suicide. The did say "at this time" so maybe it could be a second term move but that's too far away to know how things will look.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119959276#Comment_119959276

The difference is that the EU is a huge market for EV batteries, much larger than the UK. So, despite state subsidisation, the EU is unlikely to end up with a single battery producer in a monopoly position; there are already (I think) four battery producers in the EU, and there is scope for several more.

rock22

Some of the manufacturing in Europe

ambro25

…and then, in a Brexit context, this happened, perhaps to the surprise of not many on here:

https://twitter.com/AndyBounds/status/1600006993238020099?s=20&t=f9iqEah_1QfzAipWW5oWvA

So, err, that’s pretty much that, where UK EVs and batteries are concerned - and FDI prospects for same.

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962377#Comment_119962377

Two ways of reporting that

"Brussels refuses to extend rules of origin exemption agreed in Brexit trade deal"

or "Rules of origin exemptions agreed after Brexit expire in December 2023"

Unusual that they phrased it in such a way that blames the EU :)

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119962227#Comment_119962227

Anything that challenges Chinese domination of battery technology/production is a good thing for western countries imo.Some posters here appear preoccupied with wanting to exclude the UK from all dealings with Europe(I'm not suggesting you are one of them)which possibly suggests small country syndrome.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964124#Comment_119964124

At what expense to the UK taxpayer?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964124#Comment_119964124

What a load of absolute shte.

The only people who wanted to exclude the UK are the people who voted for Brexit. They literally officially voted to exclude themselves.

Nice to play the China angle. I suppose you will be lumping us in with the Putin supporting nurses next 🤣

rock22

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964124#Comment_119964124

Both China and UK are third countries. To me, it makes little difference. I would prefer if EU was self sufficient in Battery technology. Map I posted earlier ( post #14647) shows that there is quite a bit of Lithium battery technology in EU already.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964124#Comment_119964124

How does the UK becoming a leader in Batteries help us or anyone else in the EU? They are as outside the EU as China and as they showed during Covid are not in the mindset of working with the EU on anything.

If the UK become the leader in that, you can be certain that they will use that to get advantages over the EU (and quite rightly too). So it is imperative that the EU look internally and not be reliant on China, the UK or anyone else. The recent Ukraine invasion has shown up the danger of relying on Russia for Gas, it leads to having to make some very uncomfortable decisions.

What the EU has done very successfully over the last 40 years is use the combined power of all the countries to give them greater power and security than the individual countries would have.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964379#Comment_119964379

Being one amongst many producers in Europe isn't a sinister agenda unless you're paranoid..In the real world EU trade with third nations is part and parcel of reality.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964814#Comment_119964814

What's the difference between the UK and China for the EU ?

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964814#Comment_119964814

100%. For those countries that want to work with you. Unfortunately the UK have made it clear over the last few years that they are in direct competition with the EU.

But that is all irrelevant. It is in the EUs interests to be a leader in such technologies rather than relying on a third country. That way they have better control over standards rather than having to rely on others.

Your initial point was that Chinese supremacy needed to be curtailed and I was pointing out that swapping one 3rd country for another isn't much difference. Better for the EU to look to take a leading role themselves.

It's not like the UK has some inbuilt advantage.

joeysoap

I have been a reader of this thread since Moses came down the mountain with his i iPads (sorry,tablets) and I haven’t seen anywhere the EU wanting the UK back as a member.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119964863#Comment_119964863

I think EU countries like France and Germany have left brexit in the past and are comfortable with the UK being part of the battery market(for example)as they see the bigger picture. They're probably aware totally destroying the UK economy would be counter productive and might ultimately be detrimental to the interests of Europe.

This sadly appears less obvious to a number of posters here who seem to suffer from the small country syndrome I mentioned earlier,who would like to see the UK destroyed,not considering the potential consequences long-term.