Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033253#Comment_120033253

The NHS has gotten more money since then. But it was an increase long earmarked and also way under the figure experts said was needed to keep services functioning.

So Mogg is not incorrect but is speaking in bad faith.

Strazdas

Brexit would be infinitely more solvable if the UK govt and the right wing press could admit the thing was a disaster and had already failed.

They're in the most terrible bind at the moment. They are trying to pretend it was a great idea, is a huge success and the 52% were right to vote for it. I guess the only way now that will be able to address it is if and when the Tory Brexit govt is swept from power.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120027677#Comment_120027677

The true figure for unbothered exporters is probably closer to 0% since they haven't given a figure for exporters that have found Brexit beneficial.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033463#Comment_120033463

Are there any exporters on record who say it's a good thing ?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032469#Comment_120032469

Yeah, it was either Liam Fox or David Davies.

Whither those boys today....

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033283#Comment_120033283

Yeah but Labour under Starmer hasn't the balls to come out and say what their analysts well know, that many Brexit measures, as currently designed, MUST be reversed to avoid permanent and irrevocable damage to British society.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033582#Comment_120033582

Can you imagine a situation where an Irish Minister for Finance was unable to admit in public an 'elephant in the room' was causing serious damage to the economy or that by rights it should be scrapped or reversed in order to stabilise the finances? This is the crazy situation the British find themselves in - they cannot admit Brexit is a disastrous failure or even hint at the thought and their numerous media supporters refuse to 'go there' either.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120032469#Comment_120032469

January 31, 2017 “Merkel may force us to walk away from UK profits for the sake of preventing further EU fragmentation,” Can't find the exact quote on the vda.de site where the car makers had accepted that was going to happen.

The cost of Brexit without a trade deal would have cost all the German car makers about €2Bn. A small fraction of what Dieselgate cost VW alone, €31.3Bn

Anyway the deal is up for renegotiation in a couple of years.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033582#Comment_120033582

The people in the street are openly talking about it being a failure and the polls suggest a majority of those who voted leave regret it now.The only group talking it up are the tories.Whatever Starmer thinks privately,he's never going to ask the EU if the UK can rejoin immediately imo.

Hermy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033687#Comment_120033687

Did we not have such a situation here in '09 when the Troika showed up in Merrion Street and government were denying their presence?

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033687#Comment_120033687

Fianna Fail tried to pretend they were forced to bailout the banks with the guarantee, and recently Martin had to correct for the Dail record his assertion that there wasn't a bailout. Brian Lenehan Jr boasted back in 08 that it was the cheapest bailout in history!

When you look back on the period between that guarantee and the IMF bailout it feels like a condensed Brexit, a government of the day making a disastrous decision, lauding it as a triumph at first and then blaming others when it fails and then long after the fact trying to pretend it didn't happen.

A generation from now there'll be Tory's trying to assert they had nothing to do with brexit.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120034630#Comment_120034630

All of that is true, but look at the forces that were pushing back against them. The Irish media knew the game was up and were suggesting a bailout would happen imminently (despite Lenihan's denials) and then the governor of the Central Bank pulled the rug from under them and announced the Troika were on their way.

None of this happening in Brexit UK. The media are pro-Tory and pro-Brexit and going along with the huge swindle / fraud and refuse to call it out.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120034875#Comment_120034875

Being compared to the Irish government in 09 isn't the most flattering of comparisons.

If Cowen's team are coming up in conversations about your government things are not going well.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120034399#Comment_120034399

The UK has not changed the conditions that led up to the Brexit vote. You still have a media that are managing to lead the narrative in terms of public thinking. You still have massive divisions within the Tories with some delusional politicians wanting to blame the EU for everything including the weather. You still have an electoral system that allows for massive unfairness in how MPs become elected. The UK's relationship with the EU was never allowed to be shown publicly as something that benefitted the UK and this was all deliberate. You compare how the EU "benefits" were represented in the UK compared to how they were represented in Ireland. The main difference is that in Ireland we know that being a member country has provided significant benefits to the country: economically and socially. In the UK, membership of the EU is percieved as a burden which forced stupid rules and laws (which was pretty much all based on lies e.g. bendy bananas).

Until the UK changes significantly, I can't see the EU members unanimously agreeing to letting them back in. Why would they - what benefit would there be to letting the UK rejoin the EU as they were before? Do we really want the likes of Farage and his ilk back in parliament causing as much disruption as they can (or else simply not bothering to turn up to represent their constituients)?

As for Starmer, why would he say anything at the moment as it would just be used as a rod to beat him (by the media, the ERG, etc.). The worse things are now for people, the more it will go against the Tories and will suit Lab. Starmer is better off staying relatively quiet until a formal election is announced. At that point he can announce plans for some kind of closer relationship with the EU should Lab get in.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120034906#Comment_120034906

But Ireland 2008-13 was an example of how to handle the fall out from a huge domestic financial and economic cock up. Yes, there were major Tory levels of incompetence and ineptitude from Ahern and Cowen, financial regulator asleep at the wheel, media not really doing their job etc, but once the scale of the disaster became apparent, many wheels were set in motion to try and correct it. It's true that Lenihan and Cowen were trying to deny the obvious but that period of denial didn't actually last too long.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035010#Comment_120035010

That's an interesting way of seeing how it went for Ireland back then.i was under the impression Ireland was up to it's neck in it and had to have an international bailout which included a loan from a Tory led UK.

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120034875#Comment_120034875

If I remember correctly at the time of the guarantee there little to no pushback from the media who had done well out of the boom and would have preferred for the blank check guarantee to fill up their punch bowl.

It took a good year after the guarantee and a year before the IMF bailout for the media to really get their teeth into the government.

paul71

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120033555#Comment_120033555

Probably not on record but Northern Ireland exporters to Ireland are living the dream, just don't tell the DUP.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035108#Comment_120035108

The Irish financial crash of 2008-10 and Brexit were similar in that both were self inflicted by the incompetence of clueless governments (and a clueless English electorate in the case of the UK). But the response to both crises was markedly different ; Irish government was forced to admit in relatively short time that its own policies had caused the crash, people were jailed for their actions and a commission of inquiry was held.

There is nothing like this happening in the UK, as according to the govt and its media, Brexit is a huge success and the current recession was always going to happen.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035916#Comment_120035916

No one can go to jail for Brexit I would say but the commissions of enquiry could happen once the government changes and the ruling party could take a battering in the post realization election like in Ireland.

A big difference is in Ireland only the real Irish papers have a possible political allegiance and the British (fake Irish) tabloids don't push a party agenda like they do in the UK

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035977#Comment_120035977

I`m fairly sure Johnson admitted he lied about the brexit bus NHS claims(and was laughing when he said it)He should be taken to task for those lies.

Many people I`ve spoken to who voted for brexit tended to be uninterested in politics or naive and believed everything they were fed by farage and co.People are only now beginning to wake up to the levels the engineers of brexit would sink to.

rock22

@FraserburghFreddie wrote "I`m fairly sure Johnson admitted he lied about the brexit bus NHS claims(and was laughing when he said it)He should be taken to task for those lies."

I remember a private prosecution was taken but dismissed by the court. Up to 2019 Johnson was still deflecting questions about that lie. I would be interest in any link where he admitted it was a lie.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120035108#Comment_120035108

I think that is the point. Both the UK and Ireland have been up to their neck in it recently. Ireland denied getting help for a bit while getting help for the situation while UK seems to be denying getting help while not actually getting any help for their situation.

FraserburghFreddie

Deleted

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037299#Comment_120037299

Apologies, it seems it was Dominic Cummings laughing about it whilst asked about it during an interview.

FraserburghFreddie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037396#Comment_120037396

With the difference those responsible in Ireland were taken to task.

I was watching an obscure uk channel (talk tv)which has quite a few controversial presenters.The presenter(Richard Tice)was saying the UK debt is mostly owned by the UK and suggested a'covid war bond 'which could be deposited into the bank of England vaults for 75 years.Way above my head and sounds very dodgy!The impression many of the succession of obviously pro brexit guests give is their disregard for the damage to the UK their dogmatic obsession is causing.

murphaph

I thought the UK predominantly bailed out its own banks with that loan?

yagan

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037396#Comment_120037396

You see the Tory plan already, crash out of power and let Labour balance the books like they had to with the imf bailout in 76, and then wait for the populace to forget the torys created the mess and then ride back into power as the fiscally prudent under thatcher.

In our case fianna fail are only back because of a truce with fg, but sf are the new ff and are denounced as ff were back when they first entered the Dail.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120037525#Comment_120037525

Ya it did. They were also looking to stop contagion rather than acting out of the kindness of their hearts like has been alluded to a number of times over the years on this thread.

Leroy42

A lot of the continued problems with Brexit lay at the feet of the electorate. They gave Johnson and the Tories a whopping majority in what was essentially a referendum on the type of Brexit.

Tories should have been penalised by the voters for the carry on since the ref. 2 PMs resigned, TM was practically hounded out of office by the likes of JRM.

But rather than have the charlatans like JRM, Davis, Johnson et al pay the price for the political chaos they were handsomely rewarded for it.

Anyone with any interest could forsee the problems with the deal, the issues with NIP, the lack of growth, the failing NHS, cuts to police and criminal justice system etc etc but that was all forgotten on the altar of Getting Brexit Done.

And they are paying the inevitable price now.