Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

IAmTheReign

listermint wrote: »

I think that's revisionism in the highest.

No UK citizens were following Cameron's conversations with the EU at the time. In fact none of them were even looking for a referendum on anything at all.

Cameron is at fault for calling one to appears a small militant and secretive members club who wouldn't produce a members list. Then all the rhetoric started with the backing of dark money.



Nothing prior to above did any average Brit give a flying hoot about.

This is totally true and I'm not sure why it doesn't get brought up more. As of December 2015 EU membership was a total non issue for voters. Only 5% of voters considered it an issue, with only 1% considering it the most important issue facing the country.

https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/economistipsos-mori-december-2015-issues-index

However, immigration and the NHS are consistently both in the top 3 issues for voters according to polls. The reason the Brexit referendum passed is because they managed to conflate these two issues with the topic of EU membership. That's why so much of the talk was on 'taking back control of our borders' & '250 million a week for the NHS'

It was a clever strategy, in a Machiavellian sense of the word. You have to wonder what the strategy is now Brexit has happened and immigration and the NHS hasn't gotten better.

VinLieger

VinLieger wrote: »

NATO doesn't work if we cannot count on the US though and i don't believe we can beyond a 4 year term anymore.

NATO was a product of the cold war, it really lost its purpose after 1991, but with the Russian re-emergence as a global superpower, some form of military alliance looks like it will be needed to counter any military threat from the east.


Either EUA (European Union Alliance, or similar name) or a revitalised NATO



The US will probably not lead, whether the UK plays a part in it is debatable.
After Trump's disengagement from the world "policeman" role would Biden try to re-establish that?

peter kern

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Brexit is Brexit and the UK will have to trade with the EU and accept EU standards etc of course. I am not worried about British standards in anyway (we have much bigger worries) so in time I hope the EU and Britain simply become good trading partners who trust each other. This can only be good for Ireland. The EU in return needs to accept Britain is now an independent state and it can change things as it sees fit and both sides to that party must accept that it may cause issues but the emotion and silliness needs to be taken out of the equation. Lots of emotion flying about ATM.

Look simple facile example - should the EU have any concerns about any exports from British Farmers now - absolutely not, food standards as good as Europe so just get on with trade as normal. Does the EU need to keep an eye on things, yeah sure. If for example tomorrow Boris has a brainfart and says Chlorinated Chicken is a go and they start producing chlorinated chicken - sure go 'sorry lads your chicken is a no go'.............but I just can't see it being a problem. The Brits may have their issues but I can't see the British public accepting huge reductions in standards.

i agree with you ,there is way to many emotions. but at the end of the day this is the deal the uk wanted.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

But my post was in response to the post that said that standards would remain largely the same. So the UK will have moved from a rule-maker to a rule-taker on the basis on something that may or may not happen but that they themselves had the power to stop!

The rule taker only applies to exports from the UK to the EU, if UK standards change, they will become the rule maker for imports from the EU and elsewhere.

Standardisation should be maintained as much as possible, nothing worse than returning to the old days of incompatible hardware, signalling etc.

Divergence is likely to be in areas like acceptable noise levels or power consumption, acceptable levels of contaminants etc

ujjjjjjjjj

Deleted User wrote: »

NATO was a product of the cold war, it really lost its purpose after 1991, but with the Russian re-emergence as a global superpower, some form of military alliance looks like it will be needed to counter any military threat from the east.


Either EUA (European Union Alliance, or similar name) or a revitalised NATO



The US will probably not lead, whether the UK plays a part in it is debatable.
After Trump's disengagement from the world "policeman" role would Biden try to re-establish that?

Agreed and a 'NATO' needs to be strong. We desperately need a strong USA to work with NATO or this European Force too. I hope the UK continues to play a pivotal part in this as I am sure it will. In short the world with a resurgent Russia and China to boot isn't that much different from the cold war, history has a habit of repeating.

Brexit is an unfortunate 'local' issue which distracts us from some fairly scary stuff happening globally !!

VinLieger

Deleted User wrote: »

NATO was a product of the cold war, it really lost its purpose after 1991, but with the Russian re-emergence as a global superpower, some form of military alliance looks like it will be needed to counter any military threat from the east.


Either EUA (European Union Alliance, or similar name) or a revitalised NATO



The US will probably not lead, whether the UK plays a part in it is debatable.
After Trump's disengagement from the world "policeman" role would Biden try to re-establish that?

But the threats we will face currently aren't of a military kind right now nor are they likely to be unless something goes seriously wrong, they will be increasing economic pressures as well as cultural influences via social media.

I don't get peoples faith in a military alliance when it is absolutely useless beyond being a deterrent for war so then our enemies shift the battlefield onto a new surface that we arent as aligned on which is why imo the only solution is a federalised Europe.

But this getting way off topic so ill leave ti there.

ujjjjjjjjj

peter kern wrote: »

i agree with you ,there is way to many emotions. but at the end of the day this is the deal the uk wanted.

Agree entirely the Brits will have to live with this deal but let's not get too emotional or jump all over them just because it feels good. Brexit is done now and it would benefit all if there was less mud slinging and more focus on moving on and securing the best possible relations with Britain and the EU. I know it feels great to find another article about a truck being stuck in customs, or a company having paperwork headaches etc etc It really isn't going to benefit anyone. Ireland for a zillion reasons can only benefit from a strong and healthy UK, that is really all I am saying so let's stop jumping all over them at every chance.

In time I really genuinely hope we move on from this and Britain grows and prospers and Ireland inside the EU grows and prospers too but also continues to ask questions and keep heads and minds open to where the EU is going.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

The whole "EU" wants to become a superstate is quite a strawman, i remember the same points being made here on this forum over a decade ago during Lisbon(s). I am still waiting to be conscripted into an EU army :O

If anything after {Financial, Crimea, Euro, Migration, Trump, Brexit and Covid} crises of last decade I wish EU becomes more federal as its glaringly obvious now that there is need for cooperation on all sorts of threats to stability of Europe. With Ireland having a say at the table as external issues keep impacting us regardless of domestic politics.

The main reason the "EU army" never happened is because there was huge push back from many of the member countries, if there had been no opposition it could be with us now.


As for all the other "crisis's" I doubt that federalism would have had any impact, in fact several of the issues mentioned are a direct result of the EU state's progress towards such a goal. The Euro crisis would not have happened, the migrant crisis would have been very different, the rest of the list would have happened federal EU or not.

ambro25

Deleted User wrote: »

The rule taker only applies to exports from the UK to the EU, if UK standards change, they will become the rule maker for imports from the EU and elsewhere.

Standardisation should be maintained as much as possible, nothing worse than returning to the old days of incompatible hardware, signalling etc.

Divergence is likely to be in areas like acceptable noise levels or power consumption, acceptable levels of contaminants etc

The UK is not looking to diverge upwards, however, so it can make all the rules that it wants, but unless it makes inferior standards mandatory for importing, it's not going to make the least bit of difference to EU manufacturers which, with production scale and runs adapted to a 450m market (plus existing export markets with comparable or lesser standards), will still compete with bottom-racing UK manufacturers just fine.

No winners in that scenario (as usual with any Brexit scenario), and the worst loser will be the UK consumer.

In the alternative of course, then you'd have to wonder what was the point of Brexiting (...as usual with any reversing of a Brexit scenario).

swampgas

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Ireland for a zillion reasons can only benefit from a strong and healthy UK, that is really all I am saying so let's stop jumping all over them at every chance.

In time I really genuinely hope we move on from this and Britain grows and prospers and Ireland inside the EU grows and prospers too but also continues to ask questions and keep heads and minds open to where the EU is going.

That was true while the UK was an EU member. However Ireland is threatened by a politically aggressive, treacherous, and unreliable UK, which is hell-bent on damaging the EU (and its member states, especially Ireland) so that its own global status is improved. That's almost political terrorism.

IMO it is a bad idea to be too nice to an entity that is manifestly acting the way the UK is acting. Carrots, olive branches, kid gloves won't work. The only thing the current UK government seems to "respect", and I use the term loosely, is a great big stick.

Maybe in the future we can move on to a cooperative relationship with the UK, but they have to want it first.

ujjjjjjjjj

swampgas wrote: »

That was true while the UK was an EU member. However Ireland is threatened by a politically aggressive, treacherous, and unreliable UK, which is hell-bent on damaging the EU (and its member states, especially Ireland) so that it's own global status is improved. That's almost political terrorism.

IMO it is a bad idea to be too nice to an entity that is manifestly acting the way the UK is acting. Carrots, olive branches, kid gloves won't work. The only thing the current UK government seems to "respect", and I use the term loosely, is a great big stick.

Maybe in the future we can move on to a cooperative relationship with the UK, but they have to want it first.

Have to diasgree with you here. Don't think this type of language is gonna help Ireland in anyway. Absolutely agree that there was a lot of very unpleasant rhetoric from both sides in the Brexit debate. I genuinely hope we can move on from here. Olive branches are exactly what we all need and some level of mutual respect too. Ireland is a tiny country on the edge of Europe influenced by Europe the UK and the USA - it benefits Ireland to keep them all close.

ancapailldorcha

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Yes under my desk here I have a huge survey which I have just finished..........

Please.

Enough of this please. It's not unreasonable for people to ask you to substantiate your points.

swampgas

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Have to diasgree with you here. Don't think this type of language is gonna help Ireland in anyway. Absolutely agree that there was a lot of very unpleasant rhetoric from both sides in the Brexit debate. I genuinely hope we can move on from here. Olive branches are exactly what we all need and some level of mutual respect too. Ireland is a tiny country on the edge of Europe influenced by Europe the UK and the USA - it benefits Ireland to keep them all close.

IMO most of the horrible rhetoric was coming from the UK. Including the government itself. (EUSSR? Prison Camps?)

We can of course move on, but not by appeasement. The UK government have form in taking anything offered for granted and immediately asking for more. It's simply misguided to expect anything remotely principled or ethical from them, and they need to be treated in a way that reflects their recent behaviour. Otherwise we're just encouraging them to continue with the same underhand tactics.

BonnieSituation

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

It was a fiasco. Though the EU did nothing in the end, the UK and Michael Gove are making hay with it and using what happened to justify pricking about with the NI protocol which causes major headaches for the Republic and will see an escalation of tensions in the North.

What headaches does it cause for the South outside of the endless bleating from belligerent Unionists and Brexity shítstirrers?

Nothing has changed since the WA was agreed and came into force on 01/01/21. This is just the UKGov coming up with their latest "dog ate my homework" routine.

FrancieBrady

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What headaches doe sit cos for the South outside of the endless bleating from belligerent Unionists and Brexity shítstirrers?

Nothing has changed since teh WA was agreed and came into force on 01/01/21. This is just the UKGov coming up with their latest "dog ate my homework" routine.

The fact they haven't even implemented the easements within the protocol has to be made more of by Dublin. Call them out...spell out how they can ease the difficulties and stress the fact that Brexit will have consequences. We can't mitigate all of the problems it causes.
It was explained over and over again that it would have a negative effect for those who wanted it.

BonnieSituation

Leroy42 wrote: »

Quickstep back. Gove's letter gave the EU until the end of the week to sort things out. They held a meeting and the outcome was that they were going to have another meeting next week.

Sounds eerily similar to the many multiple threats given by Davies, May, Johnson etc where they demanded something something and the EU slowly dealt with it in a responsible manner,

So round 1 to the EU already. Gove has had to give in on the very first demand he made!

If they UK triggers Art 16, it means a hard border in Ireland. They have been at pains to say they never want this, the people in NI don't want it, the EU the US. So UK are put basically thrown in their entire pot on this one hand. If the EU calls their bluff, are they really going to go down this route when they are looking to get a trade deal with the US and actively looking to join CTPPT?

Personally I hope they invoke Art 16 and cause a right shít storm because at this stage, it's wearing thin.

We will of course do everything to help our citizens affected under their jurisdiction as we always do. But until then, it will be another goalpost moved and another hypocritical fauxtrage.
.
What I would also like to see in the coming months would be on Biden's first trip East to stop off in Dublin, Brussels, Paris and Berlin and then feck off back home. Properly show them their actual standing in the world.

Igotadose

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Have to diasgree with you here. Don't think this type of language is gonna help Ireland in anyway. Absolutely agree that there was a lot of very unpleasant rhetoric from both sides in the Brexit debate. I genuinely hope we can move on from here. Olive branches are exactly what we all need and some level of mutual respect too. Ireland is a tiny country on the edge of Europe influenced by Europe the UK and the USA - it benefits Ireland to keep them all close.

Never placate a bully.

Hurrache

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Have to diasgree with you here. Don't think this type of language is gonna help Ireland in anyway. Absolutely agree that there was a lot of very unpleasant rhetoric from both sides in the Brexit debate. I genuinely hope we can move on from here. Olive branches are exactly what we all need and some level of mutual respect too. Ireland is a tiny country on the edge of Europe influenced by Europe the UK and the USA - it benefits Ireland to keep them all close.

Just like how GOP now want to move on and not face up to their responsibilities about what happened in Washington.

ujjjjjjjjj

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Enough of this please. It's not unreasonable for people to ask you to substantiate your points.

There is plenty of concern out there about this issue:

https://support.ce-check.eu/hc/en-us/articles/360008642600-How-To-Distinguish-A-Real-CE-Mark-From-A-Fake-Chinese-Export-Mark

The fact that the 'Chinese Export' mark looks virtually identical to the CE mark for me is reason enough to be concerned. There is only one reason to do this. CE is self certified and the responsibility of the importer to make sure goods are actually CE and not Chinese Export so there is a lot of self policing out there and we know especially in Ireland post property boom where self certification leads too. I am totally opposed to any fake or not properly certified products and if anything we need improvements here.

The sole point I was making was that I don't believe with this fairly loose and obviously open to abuse system in place that we should be overly concerned about UK standards when really the common enemy of all all Europeans including Britons is poor quality counterfeit goods coming in from outside of Europe. I don't believe Britain is suddenly going to drop standards, some people may be concerned about this. Of course the EU needs to keep a close eye on it.

Leroy42

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Agree entirely the Brits will have to live with this deal but let's not get too emotional or jump all over them just because it feels good. Brexit is done now and it would benefit all if there was less mud slinging and more focus on moving on and securing the best possible relations with Britain and the EU. I know it feels great to find another article about a truck being stuck in customs, or a company having paperwork headaches etc etc It really isn't going to benefit anyone. Ireland for a zillion reasons can only benefit from a strong and healthy UK, that is really all I am saying so let's stop jumping all over them at every chance.

In time I really genuinely hope we move on from this and Britain grows and prospers and Ireland inside the EU grows and prospers too but also continues to ask questions and keep heads and minds open to where the EU is going.

All that is perfectly reasonable except that the Uk have no intention of going along that path. Gove has stated he wants to break up the EU, the UK are currently on a path to compete directly against the EU.

The UK have signed two agreements in the last year, both of which they want to walk away from because it isn't as great as they wanted it to be.

You cannot deal reasonably with another party if they are not being reasonable in return.

Look at Gove's letter to the EU yesterday. Total blame on the EU and completely up to the EU to find a solution, or else. With the added deadline imposed by the UK. Does that sound like a side that is being reasonable or looking to be in partnership?

tubercolossus

Deleted User wrote: »

The "soon to be superstate" is one of the reasons Brexit happened in the first place, some in the UK didn't want the external control that the superstate would have over the nation

This would be the 'superstate' that Tony Benn was warning about back in 2008, would it?

Brexit had literally nothing to do with any notional 'superstate'. It's been entirely an internal Conservative party issue for decades.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Personally I hope they invoke Art 16 and cause a right shít storm because at this stage, it's wearing thin.

We will of course do everything to help our citizens affected under their jurisdiction as we always do. But until then, it will be another goalpost moved and another hypocritical fauxtrage.
.
What I would also like to see in the coming months would be on Biden's first trip East to stop off in Dublin, Brussels, Paris and Berlin and then feck off back home. Properly show them their actual standing in the world.

In reality the US is probably looking on in confusion wondering what the heck is going on in Ireland.
And again,in reality,having left the EU the UK has lost influence within that sphere which the US doesn't like but make no mistake,the UK is viewed as Americas greatest ally in Europe which you should accept instead of wasting so much energy hating the UK and all it stands for.

Zubeneschamali

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Brexit is done now and it would benefit all if there was less mud slinging and more focus on moving on and securing the best possible relations with Britain

Brexit is done? Then why is the PM trying to change the terms of the Brexit deal in relation to NI?

Why is Gove writing to the EU asking for extensions of interim measures out to 2023?

Brexit will never be done, it is unsustainable. Eventually it will be reversed in practice, with the UK back in the Single Market, even if it never gets reversed in name.

ujjjjjjjjj

swampgas wrote: »

IMO most of the horrible rhetoric was coming from the UK. Including the government itself. (EUSSR? Prison Camps?)

We can of course move on, but not by appeasement. The UK government have form in taking anything offered for granted and immediately asking for more. It's simply misguided to expect anything remotely principled or ethical from them, and they need to be treated in a way that reflects their recent behaviour. Otherwise we're just encouraging them to continue with the same underhand tactics.

Don't disagree, lots of unpleasant stuff out of the UK especially in their gutter press. Just can't see how it benefits Ireland to continue friction - we actually could be a really useful (and for entirely selfish purposes) a bridge building point for improving post Brexit relations between the EU and the UK. Sometimes it really pays to be the big man and with olive branches move on. Sure if things slide and Dailymail man takes over and it all becomes unreconcilable we reconsider but in Ireland we have somehow managed to stop people killing themselves up North with a gentle approach, I know it's hard and it's great fun bashing the Brits but my fear is it if things slide rapidly we will suffer consequences and I'll literally talking about trade, jobs etc etc. Brexit ain't going anywhere, let's try and make the best of it not stir it up.

swampgas

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Don't disagree, lots of unpleasant stuff out of the UK especially in their gutter press. Just can't see how it benefits Ireland to continue friction - we actually could be a really useful (and for entirely selfish purposes) a bridge building point for improving post Brexit relations between the EU and the UK. Sometimes it really pays to be the big man and with olive branches move on. Sure if things slide and Dailymail man takes over and it all becomes unreconcilable we reconsider but in Ireland we have somehow managed to stop people killing themselves up North with a gentle approach, I know it's hard and it's great fun bashing the Brits but my fear is it if things slide rapidly we will suffer consequences and I'll literally talking about trade, jobs etc etc. Brexit ain't going anywhere, let's try and make the best of it not stir it up.

The EU and Ireland have been, and continue to be (to a fault), polite, firm, and professional with the UK, and have expressed multiple times a willingness to engage positively with the UK.

That's not in question. The problem right now is that the UK seem to have decided that we are the enemy, and that we must be bullied/cheated/defeated in some way. They cooperate for 5 minutes while it suits them then break their agreements 5 minutes later.

They are heading towards rogue state status, and they simply don't care. It's unpleasant but pretending it is otherwise won't help.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

In reality the US is probably looking on in confusion wondering what the heck is going on in Ireland.
And again,in reality,having left the EU the UK has lost influence within that sphere which the US doesn't like but make no mistake,the UK is viewed as Americas greatest ally in Europe which you should accept instead of wasting so much energy hating the UK and all it stands for.

Yeah, yeah, all this is an Irish problem, sure.

And we don't hate you, Rob. We pity you.


PS: that 'special relationship' is a mirage, mate.

tubercolossus

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Don't disagree, lots of unpleasant stuff out of the UK especially in their gutter press. Just can't see how it benefits Ireland to continue friction - we actually could be a really useful (and for entirely selfish purposes) a bridge building point for improving post Brexit relations between the EU and the UK. Sometimes it really pays to be the big man and with olive branches move on. Sure if things slide and Dailymail man takes over and it all becomes unreconcilable we reconsider but in Ireland we have somehow managed to stop people killing themselves up North with a gentle approach, I know it's hard and it's great fun bashing the Brits but my fear is it if things slide rapidly we will suffer consequences and I'll literally talking about trade, jobs etc etc. Brexit ain't going anywhere, let's try and make the best of it not stir it up.

Neville Chamberlain would be proud of this appeasement.

Look where it got him.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

In reality the US is probably looking on in confusion wondering what the heck is going on in Ireland.
And again,in reality,having left the EU the UK has lost influence within that sphere which the US doesn't like but make no mistake,the UK is viewed as Americas greatest ally in Europe which you should accept instead of wasting so much energy hating the UK and all it stands for.

Ther you go again Rob with your made up assertions. Who is hating the UK and all it stands for?

WHere are you getting that from. From a person that continues to post that not everyone in the UK is intolerant or racist just because that is the government they continually voted in, you are very quick to making sweeping generalisations about the rest of the EU.

Ireland does not hate the UK. Prior to Brexit the two countries had the best relationship they had probably ever had. The Queen visited, and was largely welcomed.

We consume their media, we watch their sports, we live there, work there, travel there. And millions of Eu citizens travel to the UK every year and millions live there and work there (wasn't that part of the Brexit issues).

You think all of this is just a cover for hatred?

What is very evident, in as much as people care, if that people hate Brexit and hate the way the UK are acting. They have been unreasonable since even before the vote and since the ref have taken to believing their own arrogance.

Again, read through Gove's letter yesterday. Does that read as if it is a reasonable person looking to work through issues in the spirit of sharing? No, it was a full on 'you are totally to blame, if you don't sort it out we will make you pay' demand. With then added deadline of basically 48 hours! It was pretty close to a ransome demand letter.

Thankfully, the EU gave it the respect it deserved and told Gove to take a chill pill, stop acting like the big man and throwing his weight around, and maybe try to work out some possible solutions himself rather than blaming everyone else.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

The Chinese have created a CE mark called "Chinese Export", the difference is the spacing between the letters, the Chinese CE is in a different font to the EU CE mark and the letters appear closer together.

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Have a quick google..............endless articles about the rather dodgy use of the CE mark.....I have worked with procurement people in retail and in many product lines CE is treated as a bit of a joke and box ticking exercise There are plenty of manufacturers around the world that don't treat it as a joke and honour it and there are plenty who don't.....

For the benefit of dolanbaker, ujjjjjjjjj and anyone else with a fondness for perpetuating urban myths, be aware that there is not now, nor has there ever been, a "Chinese Export" symbol composed of the letters C and E. If ujjjjjjjjj did a little bit more than quick googling, he/she would find that the matter was raised and dealt with by the European union back in 2008 (my highlighting and emphasis):

The Commission is aware that there exists the misconception attributing CE marking the meaning ‘Chinese export’. The Commission is not aware of the existence of a ‘China export mark’ but considers that the mark the Honourable Member refers to constitute the CE marking as foreseen in the European legislation without, however, respecting the dimensions and proportions prescribed therein.

The Commission is aware that CE marking, like any other mark, is misused, e.g. CE marking is affixed to products which do not fulfil the requirements and conditions for its affixing or it is affixed to products for which the affixing is not foreseen. There are also cases where, whilst the product is in compliance with the applicable requirements the CE marking itself does not respect the formal requirements, namely the form of the CE marking or the dimensions and proportions prescribed in the legislation.

The Commission considers market surveillance to be the crucial element to prevent CE marking from being misused. According to the principle of subsidiarity market surveillance is primarily a task of the Member States. Products bearing CE marking although they do not comply with the applicable requirements must be identified by the national competent authorities and subsequently be withdrawn from the market.

Dragging this back to Brexit: market surveillance requires physical checks of physical products. Can anyone name a European country that doesn't have enough customs agents to check their imports? That, having left the EU, has postponed full checks on their own borders until some time later this year? That, in the face of a bit of vandalism, has suspended physical checks on products arriving in certain ports?

RobMc59

tubercolossus wrote: »

Yeah, yeah, all this is an Irish problem, sure.

And we don't hate you, Rob. We pity you.


PS: that 'special relationship' is a mirage, mate.

Thats the difference tuber,I accept the UK has lost prestige and influence in Europe and that has resulted in it being less useful to the US.
I don't view my country as being front and centre in everything unlike some.