Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Seth Brundle

(Apologies for my earlier short post - I was out walking at the time but wanted to mention it)

I'm just dumbfounded how something like this isn't attracting much attention in the UK. How can someone who actively campaigned against the EU and was highly critical of it now be recommending it for a vulnerable country. How, given the rise in criticism of Brexit, is the media not saying anything? It's just bizarre.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197903#Comment_120197903

I kinda presume at this stage Brexit fatigue has turned people off from the more egregious offences by its former architects; there have been so many headlines and direct effects at street level, noted lier Boris Johnson coming out with a comment like that seems small beer. Maybe if he were still PM it might be a bigger headline

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197903#Comment_120197903

I think there are a few things at play here. Firstly, there is a clear media attempt to rehabilitate Johnson. This was a recent Daily Mail front page:

Pretentious opening allusion to history and then straight to exploiting the situation there for personal gain. He's also been using his relationship with Zelenskyy to the same effect.

Secondly, who is there to hold these people to account? The Barclay brothers? The Lebedevs? Murdoch? Rothermere? They know that he won big in 2019 and that he's their best hope to win again in 2024/2025. He's stayed out of the way for long enough and now he's sniping at Sunak who's in a pathetically weak position of his own making. I'm not saying he can win but he's clearly their best bet and they know it. There's nobody else and Sunak will take the blame for the next few years.

Ironically, there are plenty of great books and publications but the general public just don't seem to care that much. I've read incredible books from Times journalists and that's a Murdoch outlet.

Meanwhile, the French are rioting over the proposed increase in the retirement age from 62 to 64.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120191641#Comment_120191641

Not that Brexit was the fault of remainers, but it certainly read like:

 remainers to forgo their righteous indignation for the collective benefit of the UK as a whole

is suggesting that something they've done, or failed to do, is the reason for the failure of Brexit. If not, then how exactly is forgoing of righteous indignation supposed to help? Again, please outline what chain of cause-and-effect you envision.

dublin49

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120198718#Comment_120198718

Aah come on.you are really stretching to attribute a sentiment to me I never expressed.Because I suggest the blame game needs to be toned down is a long way from me suggesting the remainers sank Brexit.I sense from some replies "if your not fully with us you are against us" reaction to my posts.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197877#Comment_120197877

Leaving the constitutional politics out of it, he was absolutely right.

schmoo2k

IMO the only way to get the UK back on track is:

1. Switch to PR from FPTP
2. Rejoin the single market / customs union (or as a hack, extend/limit the "free ports" to be part of them and make NI a big "free port")
3. As a natural consequence of 1 - the tory party will split into two parties, hard right and center right (same is true for the labour party, but left?)

The bad news is that that the above aligns with what Farrage wanted / wants

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120199863#Comment_120199863

You've all but directly said exactly that a few times here. No issue if that's what you think but pretending otherwise isn't going to convince anyone. Brexit failed because it was a daft idea. The UK is a heavily centralised country lacking in checks and balances. Everything post 2010 can be pinned on the Tory party. Everything.

Hermy

I'm always wary of those who say we shouldn't play the blame game.

It's akin to those who said about the banking crisis in Ireland that everybody partied.

It's really nothing more than those who are responsible trying to abdicate their responsibilities.

Blame very much needs to be attributed.

Those who advocated for Brexit in the cavalier and reckless manner that they did need to be held to account.

ancapailldorcha

It's been trotted out at several points by the Brexiters here to discredit any criticism of their project and to establish a suitable "enemy within" for political ends. The idea that we can't criticise government policy sets off all manner of red flags to me.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120200189#Comment_120200189

To add the dystopian nature of it all the tories are actively trying to outlaw protesting. So you have a problem with Brexit and take to the streets? You are obviously an anti-UK criminal.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120199863#Comment_120199863

The blame game needs to be toned up. Because there are people doing something stupid and need to be called out on that stupidity.

yagan

The only way I can see Brexit being undone is the dissolution of the UK and a constitutional reset for England/Wales.

The Brexit bus has no reverse gear and is stuck down a cul de sac.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120199863#Comment_120199863

I'm just asking about the "collective benefit" and what you imagine it is. The words are yours.

I'm also wondering if it might not be to the even greater "collective benefit" of the UK for brexiteers to grow up a bit and acknowledge that their xenophobic wet dream is banjaxing the economy of the country that they claim to love so much.

The first step to solving a problem is admitting that it exists. Remainers have been acknowledging that all along. Guess who hasn't.

storker

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120200110#Comment_120200110

It's akin to those who said about the banking crisis in Ireland that everybody partied.

It's really nothing more than those who are responsible trying to abdicate their responsibilities.

Blame very much needs to be attributed.

Remember "don't talk down the economy" and "don't talk us into recession"? But the decsions that led to economic downturn and recession had already been taken.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120200110#Comment_120200110

I always thought the original "Eurosceptics" like Dr. Richard North who were writing books about leaving the EU were deluded cranks and should never have been listened to. The basic idea was nuts - withdrawing from the political union and single market after 50 years of membership for cranky ideological reasons was no way to run a modern country. It's usually only dictatorships and authoritarian states that consider putting up barriers against their friends and neighbours. North was an idiot if he did not realise that the idea would be hijacked by every self serving creep and good-for-nothing in British politics if it was ever voted for in a referendum.

ancapailldorcha

The slide of the UK gets grimmer and grimmer:

https://twitter.com/amanpour/status/1621219401713287174

Brexit continues to punish those at the bottom end of British society while their counterparts in places like Poland and Slovenia are poised to move ahead of them quite soon.

Starting at the top of the ladder, Britons enjoy very high living standards by virtually any benchmark. Last year the top-earning 3 per cent of UK households each took home about £84,000 after tax, equivalent to $125,000 after adjusting for price differences between countries. This puts Britain’s highest earners narrowly behind the wealthiest Germans and Norwegians and comfortably among the global elite.

..

Britain is a different story. While the top earners rank fifth, the average household ranks 12th and the poorest 5 per cent rank 15th. Far from simply losing touch with their western European peers, last year the lowest-earning bracket of British households had a standard of living that was 20 per cent weaker than their counterparts in Slovenia.

https://archive.ph/rPL30

According to the article, the income of the average Slovenian household is set to overtake the UK equivalent by 2024 with Poland following suit by the end of the decade.

I don't know... It feels like this country is locked into a perpetual downwards trajectory simply because of a voting system centuries old. I don't know if the likes of France, Germany and Italy are feeling some of this as well or if it's purely a British phenomenon.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201069#Comment_120201069

The massive gulf between rich and poor in GB must be a significant factor. I've seen stats that it is one of the most unequal countries in the developed world in terms of wealth. I would imagine the average poor person in either France or Germany is still considerably better off than a poor person in a deprived part of Britain (more money in their pockets, but also better access to services such as health, housing and transport etc).

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120201146#Comment_120201146

By Gini coefficient, the UK is one of the most unequal countries in Europe. I think poorer people here are utterly screwed. I'd be much happier pouring pints back in rural Ireland than staying here utterly at the mercy of what remains of public services. Your average French or German has probably similar cash on the hip but won't be waiting weeks to see a GP or, as I've been doing, hitting F5 on a computer screen. There's the difference.

joeguevara

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120197809#Comment_120197809

I wonder do people still believe this? The Boris thing is bizarre, even for him,

Igotadose

Brexit had wrecked the wedding business at the "Downton Abbey" House. The Granthams would be shocked. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/downton-abbey-venue-scrap-weddings-brexit-b2274613.html

Enzokk

Seems an agreement is close on goods moving from the UK to NI only. This is predicated on the UK providing real time information to the EU on what goods are on the way and if needed some shipments will be checked. The UK will have to legislate for the construction of border posts in NI to make this possible and will have to provide the information of what is on the way in real time to the EU as well, if I am reading the thread correctly.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1622490194124451840?s=20&t=yZXbTutbNCUgWWpMZhli7g

But stumbling blocks remain in the negotiations including what role the ECJ will play. This is probably all about trying to sell it to the ERG and will be interesting how this is sold to the UK if the EU doesn't budge.

https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1622490203096072194?s=20&t=yZXbTutbNCUgWWpMZhli7g

And then we have another issue, the apparent push from Sunak to remove the UK from the ECHR. This will be interesting, not so much in the Brexit sphere but a GFA one, but it will be interesting what happens from here with that move. This is to be as nasty as possible to those seeking refuge in the UK. To avoid the UK processing their applications for asylum can only happen if the UK is not part of the ECHR. That would put the UK in the same boat as Russia and Belarus, who are involved in the war in the Ukraine. What wonderful company to keep to be in a position to not accept refugees.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/05/tory-mps-to-push-for-uk-exit-from-european-convention-of-human-rights

"Conservative MPs are about to make a renewed push for the UK to leave the European convention on human rights (ECHR), amid reports that Rishi Sunak is considering the move in order to allow a harsh crackdown on migration.

The proposals were backed by the home secretary, Suella Braverman, during her leadership campaign over the summer.

The Guardian has been told the policy is being pushed by a number of ministers, several of whom said they would like to see it form part of the Tory manifesto if it can’t be enacted before the next election."

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120186262#Comment_120186262

It is very much happening, the softening of the public commenced with the kite flying last week.

https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2023/0206/1354022-brexit-northern-ireland-protocol/

I await your apology.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207547#Comment_120207547

For what? Your fragile ego?

I don't see what the issue is, aside from your obsessive desperation to own the libs. This is what the article says:

The EU will accept the principle that GB goods shipped to Northern Ireland and staying there should be treated differently to goods moving south into the single market, and as such will agree to a green and red lane model at ports, as proposed by the UK, a senior EU official has told RTÉ News.

The EU isn't going to undermine its own market. There's going to be measures in place to track such goods.

Sam Russell

Looks like the NIP is not the only issue facing the UK Gov re the EU.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/04/sunak-risks-full-scale-trade-war-with-brussels-by-scrapping-eu-laws

So if the UK burns all EU derived laws, then the EU will take it that the UK will be walking away from the 'level playing pitch' elements of the TCA and will retaliate with tariffs. Not good news for Sunak as he tries to hang on to some semblance of control.

It is likely that the proposal for the UK to walk away from the ECHR (UK was a major founder of this court) will also damage the UK standing in Europe, if their standing was not low enough.

And worse than all that, Truss appears to think she has the ability to make a comeback, of course that is only given a front page treatment by the Telegraph, and utter guffaws from all serious commentators in the British media.

[I did not think the word 'ability' and 'Truss' would ever appear in the same sentence without the word 'lack' preceding 'ability'.]

retalivity

Surely putting green and red lanes at NI ports, with realtime collaboration between the UK and EU and spot checks where necessary, is quietly moving the border to the Irish sea? I'd imagine the DUP are ready to lose the head again.

VinLieger

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207547#Comment_120207547

So we've gone from Tory and DUP demands to entirely scrap the NIP and place infrastructure on a hard Irish border between the EU and the UK to now having customs infrastructure between NI and the rest of the UK... where do you see this being a softening of anything on the EUs position?

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207574#Comment_120207574

The EU is just going to undermine the Irish border region then. It's infuriating watching them bend over to the UK again and again.

Businesses in the border will have to compete with British crap and lower standards in the North.

And real time data tracking? Don't me laugh, with the UK track record including falsified Chinese imports, do they think it will be reliable data?

Gerry T

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208181#Comment_120208181

I presume the arrangement will change from the current process to a red/green lane when the UK have the physical infrastructure in place to allow it to function.

A red/green lane was always a logical step forward from where we are today, all the UK needs to do is setup the border inspection checkpoints at NI ports, the computer systems and possibly allow for EU border officials for live oversight. The good thing is all this extra process will create some new jobs in NI, a win-win.

What you're watching is UK spin, it's no different to what we have seen over the past couple of decades. The EU will let them play their merry game, provided the outcome is the one agreed.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208181#Comment_120208181

Except this isn't what's happening.