Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

retalivity

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dover-delays-officials-dismiss-suella-braverman-claim-queues-brexit-latest-l0mtqjfkw

No, definitely had nothing to do with Brexit, no-siree bob, more than likely due to all the dinghys coming the other way blocking the boats, yes thats it.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433940#Comment_120433940

https://archive.is/oBFNW

Two things amusing in that article: Home office blaming France (Times refutes that) and the photo of BoJo and the Dover MP - The Naughty Tory Elphicke. Imagine what he and BoJo got up to...

breezy1985

They also tried to blame "more buses than expected" turning up which is surely bullsht in the age of online bookings.

Most people interviewed don't seem to be buying the not Brexit lie.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433940#Comment_120433940

Well worth remembering much of the Brexit ideology was based on the straight-faced rejection of facts from "so-called experts" in a collective case of anti-intellectualism. There will be those who will simply gaslight these heads at Dover as not knowing what they're talking about - or are not Brexitting hard enough.

As James O'Brien often calls it, the UK have become the first country to impose economic sanctions upon itself. This is the end-result. I feel sorry for those poor kiddos stuck on those buses; not enough to be stuck in a horrible limob, this is the country they're inheriting because of the fallacies and stubbornness of the supposed adults in the room; their punishment now to sit in stuffy buses, their teachers stressed out of their minds trying to keep the kids from going feral.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433976#Comment_120433976

The reports are crazy. 14hrs on a bus only to have to give up and cancel the holiday.

12hrs in a petrol station to get a phone call to tell you it's time to enter a 12hr queue.

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120433948#Comment_120433948

It's mad that the UK politicians are allowed to just give misinformation and that seems fine.

"A source close to the home secretary later suggested the checks are the result of how French officials have decided to do post-Brexit checks, although this is incorrect. The checks carried out by French border officers are the same for all arrivals from so called third countries which are outside of the bloc."

ambro25

Brexit is around 2 years old IIRC (UK transitioned to 3rd country on 1st March 2021, date of effect of the TCA) and ofc much of that initial year was spent by all in Covid-related travel restrictions.

I’m old enough to remember the cancellation of our Xmas 2021 family trip to the UK, at 48 hours’ notice when France decided to reinstate full-fat ‘exceptional circumstances-only-with-evidence’ border controls, due to variants rampaging in the UK again at the time.

It is now Easter holiday time, and therefore the same chaos as last July, amply reported as chaotic with lengthy queues back then:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jul/24/dover-travel-chaos-eurotunnel-channel-delays

Seemingly, Brit politicians gaslight their audience like old articles aren’t a 5 seconds-Googling away, likewise Brit ‘journalists’ still appear incapable of researching precedents and connecting dots. Sigh.

I guess we’ll have to see whether things change by November(-ish), when the ETIAS with fingerprinting and photo’ing multiplies the time taken to check and stamp passports by an order of magnitude or two (colour me dubious about that notional change 😉😏)

<edited to add link>

salonfire

Don't forget this is not the only time the French jerk around their potential tourists so it's not a total surprise they are not prepared for the additional workload.

Look at the way they tolerate the annual air traffic controllers behaviour every summer.

There should be a general acceptance that France is simply not a viable destination, especially from the UK. It's so cruel the way kids were left on coaches for hours.

Travel by air as an alternative and risk getting caught up in airport, air control or transport strikes.

Forget about France, they're in self distruct mode anyway.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438317#Comment_120438317

More of this nonsesne. What are the French doing that they don't already do to every other thrid country out there?

Britain chose to be a third country and then don't like it when they are being treated as a third country. The Dover issues are not because of the French and you know this.

salonfire

The French could put steps in place to handle the additional workload like they do for travellers from third countries into their airports.

It doesn't take that long to open a passport and stamp it.

The French have lots of form for jerking around tourists.

The volume at Dover is miniscule compared to French airports especially since its an international hub. Yet there is never delays of third country travellers through their airports.

retalivity

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438317#Comment_120438317

It really is cruel, leaving children stranded on buses for hours, ruining their holidays, all in the name of taking back control. Nearly as cruel as leaving kids stranded in dinghies of the coast, or deporting them to Rwanda if they manage to not die when crossing the channel.

Water John

Or losing track of the kids completely that are under the Govn'ts care.

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

I don't think you quite understand the volume of traffic that flows between the Channel. It's one of the busiest arteries between countries in Europe, maybe even the world.

The UK chose to eject itself from every sensible CTA style agreement with its immediate neighbours and never contemplated - or cared? - what that meant for its own vital points of entry, in any real terms. Blaming the French is asinine. The blame is on the UK government for failing to prepare for this scenario; a pretty obvious scenario that was coming.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

Again, you're posting what you've just read in The Express. Because of the position the UK chose for itself (and knew when making this choice), it now is incumbent on the French to check various things and not simply glance at a passport. Each individual's passport needs to be checked and stamped and the individuals cumulative time spent within the EU also needs to be sure it is within the allowable limits.

I would also point out that No 10 have agreeed that brexit has caused delays (despite initial denials)...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/dover-delays-officials-dismiss-suella-braverman-claim-queues-brexit-latest-l0mtqjfkw

As for the French having form jerking around tourists, this is a perception held by those who want that perception. I've travelled widely by ferry and plane and never experienced or saw any jerking around!

ArmaniJeanss

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

Perhaps. But 'Forget about France' or 'should be general acceptance that its not a viable destination' is really just Daily Express comment nonsense.

France, annoyingly (from a UK pov), remains the closest and cheapest link for the majority of the population of the UK to get to foreign shores. Equally annoyingly, French people don't have the same wish to travel to the UK so there's little chance of quid quo pro on travel arrangements. So, short of moving the island Lost-style, there's not a lot the UK can do but queue.

MBSnr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

In the world of reality though back in 2020..

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/port-of-dover-boss-says-more-funding-needed-to-prevent-increased-hold-ups/39876435.html

peter kern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

i dont think that any french airport gets so many 3 rd country entrances at peak times. you can see in dublin eu flow is about 10 times faster than third country flow.

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20221231-croatia-set-to-enter-euro-borderless-europe-club

those traffiic jams are now history in coratia if you come from a eu country.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438440#Comment_120438440

the op's point that France could do something - this is business, not interpersonal relationships. France can do what it wants, if the UK and France were in some sort of union where they had legal channels to handle disagreements... wait, that ship has sailed for the UK. Probably not to France though.

Now, the UK can travel to France and on bended knee ask for some investment in infrastructure, perhaps on the UK side, to help ameliorate this long-predicted problem, but France isn't obliged at all. Plus the UK would have to do the same with other countries (why should UK tourists have it easier going to France than, say, Spain? Again, something that could have been managed should the countries in question have a binding legal arrangement but...)

pixelburp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438718#Comment_120438718

Indeed; what they need is some kind of Union of European partners to come up with a simple and fair way to allow tourists and temporary visitors to travel to and from countries with relative ease.

Oh for sure there's a degree that's on France here, but a small one. As you say France is under no obligation to facilitate the neighbour who imploded the previously functional checks & boundaries between them. A stagnant government insisted this wasn't going to be a problem - until it became a problem to large to ignore (and even then, the Tories just aren't Brexitting hard enough from some folks' PoV).

Leroy42

The UK choose to make things harder, and thus, in line with taking back control, it should be the UK that is putting in the systems and processes to reduce the issue their decision led to.

What steps have the UK government taken? What additional resources have they provided?

As usual, the UK is looking for everyone else to solve their problem. But the great thing about taking back control is that the ability to solve the problem lies with them. It may mean having to pay, or concede on some other area, but that is a choice the UK can, or not, make.

Either way, this is a UK problem. Uop to the PM and home secretary to solve. Simply blaming the French is going to solve nothing.

timetogo1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

Which country is Dover in again?

Dover requested capacity be increased. Guess which government refused. Hint: it's the government of the country that Dover is in.

UK rejects Dover funding bid for more French passport booths | Financial Times (ft.com)

salonfire

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439414#Comment_120439414

Strange, this says differently. I was under the impression that there is an increase in the number of booths.

https://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2022-07-20/port-of-dover-installs-more-border-control-booths-in-attempt-to-reduce-delays

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120439549#Comment_120439549

That article literally says the extra capacity won't be enough come "next spring" as in right now.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438718#Comment_120438718

France has done something - quite a lot, in fact. But it's very inefficient to build infrastructure and recruit, train and deploy staff in such quantities that there will never be any congestion, even at times when travel numbers spike — like the Easter holidays. If you that, then most of the time you have underused infrastructure and underemployed staff.

The UK chose to create a state of affairs in which the French would be required to apply 3rd country migration controls to arrivals from the UK. They did that knowing that passenger movements from UK to France are about six times greater than they were before the UK entered the EU — about 90 million movements a year as opposed to 15 million. And they did that knowing that the traffic was highly seasonal. All of that means that peak season congestion and delays are pretty much to be expected.

I don't know if you guys have ever had to negotiate 3rd country arrival protocols at Heathrow. I have, because I was accompanying my wife (as we both arrived from a third country). Delays of many hours are common, especially - I hate to say this, but it's true - if you arrive on a flight that mostly has black passengers arriving from a mostly black country. UK citizens aren't subjected to this, and the UK press rarely discuss it, so may people in the UK imagine that the delays resulting from 3rd country checks applied on entry to France are exceptional, and some kind of Brexit punishment. No, they are what happens if you unilaterally terminate the arrangements which have up to now avoided delays on an extremely busy passenger route.

HalloweenJack

Not even third country.

I was stopped several times entering in the UK pre-Brexit and had to deal with incredibly pernickety border guards. It's hilarious to hear the whingeing now, especially when it's of their own doing.

A Dub in Glasgo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438317#Comment_120438317

Read and learn

https://twitter.com/RobWilliams100/status/1642973174223581186

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441310#Comment_120441310

Best of all is the Brexiters screaming at another country as to how to run their borders and to loosen up policing of said border.

France are just "taking control" of their borders.

peter kern

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120441748#Comment_120441748

schengen to be precise .

Strazdas

Anecdotal reports suggest that most people passing through Dover know full well that Brexit has caused the delays. It's really only the Brexiteer disciples / zealots who are in total denial of the reality all around them at this stage. Like communism, their ideology cannot fail or be seen to fail...if it's struggling, it must be for other reasons.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120438402#Comment_120438402

Steps like this ?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2023/0403/1367900-passport-strike/

The UK is unprepared for anything other than plain sailing.

French workers also have issues over pay but have a tradition of inflicting pain on foreigners rather than the locals when possible. Like the Air Traffic Controllers semi-annual disruption of over-flights but not those to or from French airports. French farmers and fishermen blocking ports and roads to them isn't exactly unknown.

You may also remember P&O firing all their crew a year ago and hiring yellow pack replacements, lots of tribal knowledge and goodwill gone.

In addition to passports there's also customs and other restrictions.

eg: And there are concerns that delays at British ports, and at Eurotunnel at Folkestone, could worsen when the EU launches long-delayed Entry and Exit System (EES) biometrics checks in November. ... From November, when the EES is implemented, those entering the SU from outside – including from the UK – must have four fingerprints scanned and a photograph taken. Port of Dover chief executive Doug Bannister has said that it could take 10 minutes to check a car of four people – up from 90 seconds currently.

I haven't heard any news report on how the lorry drivers were treated. In previous delays they were held back to let tourists ahead so I'd imagine there's even less inclination for them to do this run in future.

Rosslare to Cherbourg is 15 hours Rosslare to Dunkirk is 24 hours, it takes a little longer to get to Bilbao. So much for using the UK as a "landbridge"