Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

a position of “mercenarial ambivalence”

Funnily enough, I'm seriously considering the same but from the opposite side of the fence. My profession is one of those that, in the UK, was heavily dependent on EU graduates doing the grunt work as they built up the necessary years of practical experience to be considered for a "proper" position. It's also one for which the current hard Brexit generated a huge amount of additional demand which, of course, can't be easily met.

Thanks to this double whammy, the going rate for people like me is now anywhere from two to four times what I can ask in France, and the lax approach to working time regulations means that I wouldn't be limited to the ridiculoulsy inefficient French 35-hour week. Thanks to being an Irish citizen with an Irish degree, there are no obstacles to picking up where I left off a few years ago. I'm seriously tempted to draw my own personal Brexit Benefit while the opportunity exists.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498812#Comment_120498812

It would be an interesting question to discover why English OAPs became so right wing and radicalised and wanted to put up a hard border against Europe as well as getting rid of freedom of movement. This phenomenon doesn't appear to have happened with OAPs in any other European country, including Ireland.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498774#Comment_120498774

Fingers crossed things look up. I've only to move house so it's not the end of the world despite the rents here.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498983#Comment_120498983

You might as well. I'd forgotten about the 35-hour a week thing. My mate worked in a biotech firm in southern Paris and told me that he had 42 days a year off during which it was illegal for his employer to contact him.

I flirted with moving to the Rhineland-Palatinate area as it seems to have more English speakers and some degree of opportunities but fulling outfitting my own flat for the same standard of living didn't appeal. Looked at Utrecht in the Netherlands as well but it seems to be expensive all over Europe. No point in moving for the same standard of living.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499366#Comment_120499366

Freedom of movement is easy to explain: they never use it for the most part. Obviously, a fair few have retirement properties in places like Spain but for the most part, none of them are going to be heading to Bulgaria to study or to Narva to work. Therefore, there's no reason for them to value it. The UK is an extremely individualistic country so they're not bothered about what happens to those younger than them.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499366#Comment_120499366

One possibility is most Europeans are aware of the benefits of borderless travel and trade because they have land borders (so does the UK they just keep forgetting about them)

For the Irish emigration is ingrained into the national psyche and would have affected our grandparents on a level much more severe than worrying about the holiday villa.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499412#Comment_120499412

It does seem to have been a hugely selfish act. Not even a jot of concern for their children and grandchildren and their future employment and education prospects (it's no wonder many families are reported to have actually fallen out over this).

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499460#Comment_120499460

Yes, I think the English Channel goes a long way to explaining much of the Brexiteer mindset. There was always a 'them and us' mindset at the best of times.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499478#Comment_120499478

Precisely. This is why I added the qualifier about this being a very, very individualistic country. It's the first thing I noticed when I moved here in 2011. I still can't get over how the NHS is not just allowed to exist but is worshipped across the board.

ambro25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120498983#Comment_120498983

Eminently sensible, chacun voit midi à sa porte 😉😁

The trademark and design side of my profession, in the U.K., has been amputated by losing its rights of audience in the EU. That is gone for good and never coming back, until and unless the UK rejoins (full-fat Art.49 rejoin, an ‘SM fudge’ as mooted by some would not fix this).

The patent side in the U.K., not so much…yet: between the advent of the Unitary Patent Court (wherein UK-based practitioners will require a visa for purposes of representation in EU-based UPC divisions) and potential statutory incompatibilities between memberships of the European Patent Convention and the CPTPP (under which there might be a professional continuity risk for UK-based EPO professional representatives), not forgetting the EUIPO (from which UK practitioners are now banned) building a case to involve itself in FRAND/SEP patent matters…there’s some dark clouds about.

And then, pay levels in the U.K. profession seem to have plateau’d. The overheads associated with having to create an EU office, or at least associate closely with an EU firm in some JV, for UK firms to try and hold onto the EU trademark and design work, aren’t low and the increasing asymmetry in UK/EU economic growth does not improve things.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499698#Comment_120499698

Pay levels here seem to be almost comically low. I work in microscopy and this was widely and loudly derided at the annual meeting for the UK body. Companies can't get staff because nobody wants to live like a student. The lack of staff constrains growth, something we were told was all important by one Elizabeth Truss but no action has been taken.

There are still vacancies cropping up for trainees as I apply for a lot of them but I very rarely see trademark vacancies here. I saw a job with the EPO in Dublin but my inability to speak a second language made my application a waste of time.

All of Europe seems to have the issue of high quality jobs being concentrated in a few areas, continental equivalents of London-Oxford-Cambridge. I don't know what the fix is but it's depressing to hear more about how Brexit compounds the issues.

Sam Russell

I thought the centre of the Brexit debate was 'freedom of movement'.

The Brexiteer interpreted this as 'The foreigner are free to come here, so Brexit means no foreigners any more' while the Remainers thought FOM meant 'We could go out foreign to work, study or holiday' - just a different attitude.

Of course, the result for the Brexiteer is that they have to pick their own vegetables, fruit, etc. and have more non-EU neighbours, and no plumbers - they did not think of that. But it was the will of the people - or at least some of them.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499765#Comment_120499765

From memory, a huge part of the referendum debate was about the numbers of EU citizens arriving in the UK every year. Cameron himself may have fuelled much of this by going to the EU and asking to put a cap on the numbers, which they declined (pointing out that FoM was an integral and core principle of the EU and Single Market). The right English press spun this as a huge snub to the UK and claimed that Britain no longer had any way of "controlling" immigration and that potentially several million EU citizens would move to the UK in the next ten years.

The whole thing was a load of codswallop of course. A press manufactured "crisis" (aided and abetted by the Europhobe Cameron). Any economist could have told them that immigration patterns are hugely unpredictable and volatile and it was just as likely that EU immigration would fall away in the next few years. But they got it into their heads that the only way they could stop these supposedly millions of EU citizens moving to the UK was to leave the EU.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499765#Comment_120499765

That was just the loudest part of it IMO. It's also the easiest to rile people over hence the red tops unrelenting, decades-long focus on it.

Nobody voted for Brexit to get any economic benefits. It was about cultural issues and immigration was the most prominent component of that debate. Of course, once all was said and done, there was no further debate about devolution, investment or such.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499913#Comment_120499913

You are colourising and justifying my explanation.

I did not want to use the R word (Racist) but that is how some Brexiteers saw the vote. It was all these foreigners talking foreign languages on the bus, getting our jobs - etc. - xenophobes.

Of course, the fact that EU migration was tiny compared to non-EU immigration was not of note.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499948#Comment_120499948

Migration from the EU was not "tiny" compared to non-EU migration. It was about 40:60 respectively as I recall.

ambro25

In the last few years before Brexit, net EU migration (incoming minus departing) was relatively small year on year, as I recall, and there were more Britons living in the EU27, than EU27 (aggregate) living in the U.K.

Still as I recall, the numbers were always fudgy, given that the UK was not actively recording EU27s in/out (I seem to recall that the UK stats were based on NI card issuance data?)

Open to correction on all that, ofc.

The tragedy of the FoM debate leading up to the referendum, was that any attempt to raise the productivity and GDP-contributing benefits of the rights, as a logical and fact-informed economic position, was shut down with simplistic nationalist rethoric (sovereignty) and any attempt to raise the reciprocal nature of the rights, as an emotional (and no less logical and fact-informed-) position, was shut down with simplistic anti-intellectual rethoric (only rich people, liberals, worked, etc. move to the EU). And by shut down, I mean shut down everywhere, crucially so in the MSM for ratings and <reasons>.

So, well…The imbeciles won the stupid game, so they won the stupid prizes. Hey-Ho.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120499966#Comment_120499966

The fact that Covid happened less than four years after the referendum though shows how cretinous the decision to leave was. Basing whether they should stay in or leave the EU for the next few decades on something as ridiculously trivial as the immigration rules of the Single Market illustrates how genuinely thick these people were. Leaving the EU and Single Market (forever!) just in order to make a very slight adjustment to their immigration figures was the equivalent of using a 50lb sledgehammer to crack open a peanut.

salonfire

Wasn't there something too about the weather on the day of the vote, it was a complete wash out?

That would have swayed the vote with younger people more likely to have to walk or get public transport than those older voters who could drive.

And when it seemed certain No would win, individually it'd seemed hardly worth the while facing the inclement weather and voting No...

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120500771#Comment_120500771

It was the 23 June. It was very hot as I recall.

breezy1985

Definitely dry in my part of London that day.

MBSnr

Dover port gets another reprieve from the expected further delays going to France in Nov 2023... EES now punted into 2024

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexledsom/2023/04/19/europe-travel-new-border-checks-delayed-until-2024-after-paris-olympics/

deeperlearning

The irony is that immigration to Britain has increased to record levels as a direct result of Brexit.

In the year up to June 2022, long-term immigration into Britain was a record-breaking 1.1 million. This was mainly driven by the immigration of non-EU nationals.

Before Brexit, EU nationals arriving into Britain were predominantly there to work and many were there short term. Construction and agricultural workers often flew in at the start of their contracts and flew out at the end and many working in tourism and hospitality were EU students on a gap year to improve their English. Those working in healthcare were single or young couple both working and these are now returning home in very large numbers. Around a million EU nationals have left since 2016.

Replacing EU workers with non-EU workers is now driving Britain's immigration figures absolutely sky high. Non-EU national arriving in Britain are usually bringing family and dependents with them. Only 23% of non-EU nationals are arriving in Britain to work and the main reason for non-EU nationals immigrating to Britain is to join family members and these are very much planning on remaining in Britain for the long term.

Capt'n Midnight

Facebook are being fined $2.97 per US user for selling access to account holder data. It's less than two thirds of a percent of revenue. And the lawyers can take 25% off the top.

The complaints arose from accusations that Facebook allowed political consulting firm Cambridge Analytica to access the personal data of 87 million Facebook users, information the firm allegedly used to target voters with political ads, both on and off Facebook, during the 2016 election seasons in the US and UK.

That's just a cost of doing business. But as long as the stable door gets bolted ?

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120501739#Comment_120501739

The entire "freedom of movement crisis" was manufactured by the right wing press. Sir Ivan Rogers says he never once heard the UK raise the issue of freedom of movement at EU summits (or among themselves) prior to 2013, it was a complete non story and non event. By 2015, the Europhobe Cameron had started making a big song and dance about it (presumably to keep the right wing rags happy).

Quin_Dub

Another Brexit champion bites the dust.

Dominic Raab has resigned on foot of the report into accusations of bullying.

Strazdas

No surprises in these revelations. Cameron should really be serving a long stretch in prison for holding that referendum : neither he nor Vote Leave had any plan for what would happen if his sham poll was lost.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/boris-johnson-reaction-brexit-vote/

breezy1985

Hard to claim it's lies when everything we have seen would point to it being true.

wexfordman2

The UK looking for it's scapegoat, and while Johnson was and is an utter Charleton, the UK, it's institutions and it's populace need to stop and look in the mirror when looking for answers

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120521550#Comment_120521550

The media here is dedicated solely to preventing exactly this.

Leroy42

The thing that gets me is that whenever an issue is brought up, inflation, border delays, immigration etc, the usual reply is that Country X over there is doing bad as well. Which is fine if Brexit wasn't sold on the premise that it was about taking back control, that being in the EU meant the UK was saddled with their problems.

If their line is right, War in Ukraine, Pandameic etc, which has merit, then it only proves to highlight that the lie about the EU holding the UK back was complete nonsense and that the UK is subject to international issues beyond the control of the government.

So all this money and time spent since 2016 was in effect completely pointless and the UK has no more control now than it did then.