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Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

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    #1532
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,371 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    Italy banned sales to Saudi completely last week

    In other news the Telegraph is blaming Brexit on ... ... Merkel

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/angela-merkel-is-responsible-for-brexit-the-telegraph-reckons/25/01/

    From a request for donations by the website:

    Journalism in Britain is under threat. The government is becoming increasingly authoritarian and our media is run by a handful of billionaires, most of whom reside overseas and all of them have strong political allegiances and financial motivations.

    Never a truer word.


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    #1533
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    This is where some posters diverge from reality. The UK has suggested an extension period,if the EU aren't interested then fine,I'm sure the PSNI will do everything they can to stop the graffiti and Unionist behaviour.


    Seems to me that the UK is now interested in a transition period after they have seen the chaos that was predicted would happen with Brexit but that they spurned and waved away on numerous occasions.

    I also hope the UK is taking these threats seriously. This is not a joking matter and when people were saying Brexit is putting people's lives at risk in Northern Ireland this is exactly what they were talking about. This should not just be dismissed or used as something to get your way, it should be treated with the seriousness it deserves.


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    #1534
    schmoo2k
    Registered Users Posts: 1,385 ✭✭✭schmoo2k


    correct horse battery staple wrote: »
    Italy banned sales to Saudi completely last week

    In other news the Telegraph is blaming Brexit on ... ... Merkel

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/angela-merkel-is-responsible-for-brexit-the-telegraph-reckons/25/01/
    They finally did it. They blamed Germany for Brexit. The circle of life is complete.

    (From that link)


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    #1535
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Enzokk wrote: »
    Seems to me that the UK is now interested in a transition period after they have seen the chaos that was predicted would happen with Brexit but that they spurned and waved away on numerous occasions.

    I also hope the UK is taking these threats seriously. This is not a joking matter and when people were saying Brexit is putting people's lives at risk in Northern Ireland this is exactly what they were talking about. This should not just be dismissed or used as something to get your way, it should be treated with the seriousness it deserves.

    I fully agree which is why I'm glad that the UK has made what I consider a good suggestion.
    If the EU decline this I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation.


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    #1536
    schmoo2k
    Registered Users Posts: 1,385 ✭✭✭schmoo2k


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I fully agree which is why I'm glad that the UK has made what I consider a good suggestion.
    If the EU decline this I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation.

    "I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation" no matter what...


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    #1537
    Enzokk
    Registered Users Posts: 5,698 ✭✭✭Enzokk


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I fully agree which is why I'm glad that the UK has made what I consider a good suggestion.
    If the EU decline this I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation.


    Why would the EU consider the extension? And why would the PSNI only look to stop the intimidation if it is declined? Seems to me you are suggesting that unless the EU agrees to the demands from Gove and the DUP the threats will continue. Surely the threats should be stopped now before the UK and EU even gets to the table? It looks suspiciously like the DUP and the UK government is not beyond using threats of violence as a means to get their way. Forget article 16, this is out of the terrorist playbook and should in no way be even thought about.

    So firstly, stop the threats of violence. Then, and only after this has stopped, have talks about the protocol and what can be changed or improved.


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    #1538
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,624 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I fully agree which is why I'm glad that the UK has made what I consider a good suggestion.
    If the EU decline this I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation.

    Rob, what do you think the UK area going to do with the extra transition time that they were not able to do by Brexit date, the date they insisted they were ready for?

    Can you not see that Johnson and Gove lied about being ready for Brexit? They categorically were not ready. Hence having to crawl back (they can dress it up as a demand for the PR spin) to the EU begging for them to help them.

    Is that what taking back control is?

    And even if EU are willing to help out the UK in this, what are the UK going to offer in return? And then what is their proposal on fishing, the music touring industry fashion industry, professional accreditation, services etc etc etc.


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    #1539
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I fully agree which is why I'm glad that the UK has made what I consider a good suggestion.
    If the EU decline this I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation.


    What's the suggestion?

    Why is there a qualification for the PSNI to do their job?


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    #1540
    Hurrache
    Registered Users Posts: 10,228 ✭✭✭✭Hurrache


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I would expect the PSNI to use all resources available to stop the intimidation.

    There is none as far as they're concerned, it's basically looking like a plot by the DUP/Tories as the PSNI have found no evidence.


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    #1541
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Hurrache wrote: »
    There is none as far as they're concerned, it's basically looking like a plot by the DUP/Tories as the PSNI have found no evidence.
    It seems that the PSNI have found no evidence that links the graffiti to "the usual suspects", no proof that it is linked to the others either.


    Just as likely to be lone wolf(pack) stuff.


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    #1542
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It seems that the PSNI have found no evidence that links the graffiti to "the usual suspects", no proof that it is linked to the others either.


    Just as likely to be lone wolf(pack) stuff.

    Right, so given that is the case, will the UK get back in its box wrt the apparent issues with the Protocol given these threats were what were the problem that started this nonsense.


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    #1543
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Right, so given that is the case, will the UK get back in its box wrt the apparent issues with the Protocol given these threats were what were the problem that started this nonsense.
    A bad deal causes problems, that need to be addressed to avoid adding fuel to issues like this. Getting "in its box" will not solve the issue, it will only make it worse.


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    #1544
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A bad deal causes problems, that need to be addressed to avoid adding fuel to issues like this. Getting "in its box" will not solve the issue, it will only make it worse.

    They signed up to this "BAD DEAL" though, with great vigour and vim back in December.

    Have you ever heard of NOMFUP?

    This is where we are now.

    The UK caused ALL of this...

    They could have less hassle and red tape if they wanted, but they decided to take on the red tape and hassle as part of the misguided shítshow that is Brexit.

    DxJqMBsWoAA5ml2?format=jpg&name=medium

    We are right at the point where they have pulled the trigger and are expecting us to stop the bullet despite us telling them that what they are doing is a terrible idea.

    So yeah, NOMFUP! With a cherry on top.


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    #1545
    RobMc59
    Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Hurrache wrote: »
    There is none as far as they're concerned, it's basically looking like a plot by the DUP/Tories as the PSNI have found no evidence.

    I was under the impression the general consensus here was the tories had plotted against the DUP?Are you suggesting they are colluding?


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    #1546
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    They signed up to this "BAD DEAL" though, with great vigour and vim back in December.

    Have you ever heard of NOMFUP?

    This is where we are now.

    The UK caused ALL of this...

    They could have less hassle and red tape if they wanted, but they decided to take on the red tape and hassle as part of the misguided shítshow that is Brexit.



    We are right at the point where they have pulled the trigger and are expecting us to stop the bullet despite us telling them that what they are doing is a terrible idea.

    So yeah, NOMFUP! With a cherry on top.
    It certainly is if the NI part of the deal is thrown away!
    The Hard border reappears.


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    #1547
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,624 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It certainly is if the NI part of the deal is thrown away!
    The Hard border reappears.

    Unfortunately, that has always been outside of our control. The EU, working hand in hand with Ireland, did their best to try to get the Uk to accept their responsibilities and realise that this Brexit dream isn't as easy as they thought and actually has repercussions for others, including their own citizens.

    But neither we, nor the EU as a whole, can make the UK do anything. If it is hell-bent on ignoring the, admittedly difficult, solutions to the problem that they created then there really isn't very much we can do.

    They were offered a UK wide solution. They rejected it. They were they given the ability to throw NI under the bus on the basis that it was actually the least worst option available, they took it.

    Now they have decided that the reality of that decision is a bit uncomfortable and rather than actually try to deal with it the UK have instead turned the blame and responsibility back to a foreign power to try and resolve there internal issues.

    Be very clear about this. This is not the solution the EU wanted. They wanted the UK to stay. The UK ignored that and wanted to go their own way. Now they want the EU to deal with the outcome of that decision


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    #1548
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    A bad deal causes problems, that need to be addressed to avoid adding fuel to issues like this. Getting "in its box" will not solve the issue, it will only make it worse.

    The UK had the best deal possible from the EU before Brexit ie being a member. Every deal possible after Brexit was going to cause problems. The UK opted for a hard Brexit by its own choosing. No body forced the UK to go for a hard Brexit. Pretty much every reputable economic organisation warned about the economic disruption. If go back through this forum and all the Brexit threads the issues about customs were warned about repeatedly. And to be honest the customs issues shouldn't be news. The EU is just treating the UK like any non member from a customs point of view. The same the UK treated non EU member states when the UK was part of the EU. However all that was project fear, we couldn't predict the future etc.

    The best way for the UK to resolve the problem would be to apply to rejoin the UK. Unfortunately that won't happen in the short term. So the UK is going to have to live with the hard brexit they opted for and all the issues that come with that.


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    #1549
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,624 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    And even the governments own reports warned of these problems, but the likes of Gove et al said those reports were worst-case scenario only and a deal with sort it all out.

    Johnson stated on signing the deal that there would be no non-tariff barriers.

    At what point do Brexiteers start to actually question the promises and results of their own government. They seem too busy looking over at the EU to notice that Johnson has delivered a disaster that is now slowly unfolding in front of their eyes.

    They were warned about all of this, but they chose to ignore the warning as Project Fear.


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    #1550
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    I was under the impression the general consensus here was the tories had plotted against the DUP?Are you suggesting they are colluding?

    Why did Gove specifically as for an extension until 1st Jan 2023?

    Could it be to get the DUP past the 2022 assembly election?


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    #1551
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It certainly is if the NI part of the deal is thrown away!
    The Hard border reappears.

    ... followed a year later by a United Ireland, might not be the worst thing.


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    #1552
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,624 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    Why did Gove specifically as for an extension until 1st Jan 2023?

    Could it be to get the DUP past the 2022 assembly election?

    Not sure, but that very much seems to be the case.

    As we have seen throughout the Brexit process, there is no long term plan, everything is said and done to get them over the next deadline or hurdle, they worry about what happens after that is dealt with.

    The 'shock' that this is causing problems is quite amazing to see. If anybody was so clearly caught out in their job as Gove and Johnson have been they would be fired.

    Instead we have Brexiteers applauding Give for standing up to the EU!


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    #1553
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    ... followed a year later by a United Ireland, might not be the worst thing.
    Civil unrest is a far more likely outcome, unfortunately!


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    #1554
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It certainly is if the NI part of the deal is thrown away!
    The Hard border reappears.

    Is this likely?

    Are we restarting this whole thing again?

    Do you recall why NI was front and centre of the entirety of the Brexit process?


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    #1555
    tubercolossus
    Registered Users Posts: 155 ✭✭tubercolossus


    RobMc59 wrote: »
    Thats the difference tuber,I accept the UK has lost prestige and influence in Europe and that has resulted in it being less useful to the US.
    I don't view my country as being front and centre in everything unlike some.

    You just told the UK was bezzie mates with the US! Make your bloody mind up.


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    #1556
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Is this likely?

    Are we restarting this whole thing again?

    Do you recall why NI was front and centre of the entirety of the Brexit process?
    Have politicians ever made sense before?
    The deal appears not to be working as hoped, so something has to change before too many get frustrated by the current situation.


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    #1557
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A bad deal causes problems, that need to be addressed to avoid adding fuel to issues like this. Getting "in its box" will not solve the issue, it will only make it worse.
    Just to be clear, these are the words of PM johnson last December:
    At a Downing Street press conference, Boris Johnson said: "We have taken back control of our laws and our destiny."

    The text of the agreement has yet to be released, but the PM claimed it was a "good deal for the whole of Europe".

    At his press conference, Boris Johnson said the £668bn a year agreement would "protect jobs across this country" and "enable UK goods to be sold without tariffs, without quotas in the EU market".
    In addition, Brexit protagonist Nigel farage said:
    It's a lot better off than we were five years ago.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-55435930
    Full Text: https://www.fnlondon.com/articles/boris-johnsons-brexit-trade-deal-speech-in-full-we-have-taken-back-control-of-laws-and-our-destiny-20201224

    So, since when has it become a bad deal for the British government?


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    #1558
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have politicians ever made sense before?
    The deal appears not to be working as hoped, so something has to change before too many get frustrated by the current situation.
    ...according to who?
    In what way is it not as they hoped?


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    #1559
    ujjjjjjjjj
    Registered Users Posts: 923 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Not sure, but that very much seems to be the case.

    As we have seen throughout the Brexit process, there is no long term plan, everything is said and done to get them over the next deadline or hurdle, they worry about what happens after that is dealt with.

    The 'shock' that this is causing problems is quite amazing to see. If anybody was so clearly caught out in their job as Gove and Johnson have been they would be fired.

    Instead we have Brexiteers applauding Give for standing up to the EU!

    Look Gove is just buying time. I think most people when they look at the NI situation realise a longterm fudge is going to be the only thing that works. Sticking it on the long finger for the moment may not be the worst idea as UK / EU relations really couldn't be in a worse place atm after 4 years of Brexit wrangling and the latest AZ spat. By 2023 perhaps an under the radar fudge where traffic flow freely between NI and the UK and NI and IRL with some radomised checking could fudge it through and leave everyone looking okay.


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    #1560
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Civil unrest is a far more likely outcome, unfortunately!

    Best for the PSNI to do their job and make sure the Loyalists and Belligerents don't get too out of hand.


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    #1561
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 19,068 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Have politicians ever made sense before?

    Yes. Everytime the EU and Irish government spoke on Brexit it all made sense.
    The deal appears not to be working as hoped, so something has to change before too many get frustrated by the current situation.

    Poor babums. They best tell us what they want so.


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