Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

BonnieSituation

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Look Gove is just buying time. I think most people when they look at the NI situation realise a longterm fudge is going to be the only thing that works. Sticking it on the long finger for the moment may not be the worst idea as UK / EU relations really couldn't be in a worse place atm after 4 years of Brexit wrangling and the latest AZ spat. By 2023 perhaps an under the radar fudge where traffic flow freely between NI and the UK and NI and IRL with some radomised checking could fudge it through and leave everyone looking okay.

There won't be any fudge that endangers your membership of the SM.

The current deal IS the fudge.

forgottenhills

Deleted User wrote: »

It certainly is if the NI part of the deal is thrown away!
The Hard border reappears.

I love the hypocrisy on here.

The potential of some sort of customs/SM check border between ROI and NI - always referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh its very bad, should never happen, it would completely break the GFA, will bring war, pestilence etc.

An actual customs/SM check border now between Britain and NI - never referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh isn't it a great solution, totally within the spirit of the GFA, who gives a **** about the rights or feelings of Unionists, shur the Unionists will be clamouring for a United Ireland very soon etc.

Jeez.

It's a good job that our government is more sensible and have held out a olive branch to see if they can accommodate the concerns of NI businessmen ( who are nationalists as well as unionists by the way) by considering slight changes to the implementation of the NI Protocol to make it more workable.

ujjjjjjjjj

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There won't be any fudge that endangers your membership of the SM.

The current deal IS the fudge.

Would love to think that but have an unpleasant feeling our loyalist friends are bored and this is a new project for em. Ultimately I couldn't care less about the SM or whatever fudge is needed as long as we don't go back to shootings etc up North. Any fudge is worth pushing through under the radar to keep people shopping up North rather than shooting each other.

Leroy42

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Look Gove is just buying time. I think most people when they look at the NI situation realise a longterm fudge is going to be the only thing that works. Sticking it on the long finger for the moment may not be the worst idea as UK / EU relations really couldn't be in a worse place atm after 4 years of Brexit wrangling and the latest AZ spat. By 2023 perhaps an under the radar fudge where traffic flow freely between NI and the UK and NI and IRL with some radomised checking could fudge it through and leave everyone looking okay.

The problem is that Gove, and Johnson and many other Tories, are actively stoking the fire of anti-EU feeling within the UK. They are making it out to be all the EU's fault, that the EU is punishing them.

none of that is true, but politicians words matter. When one constantly blames others it doesn't take much for that feeling to simply be accepted by the masses.

And that is exactly their plan. Whilst they can argue that there are issues with the implementation, rather than say that and look to work with the EU to resolve them, Gove sent a letter demanding the EU solve them, blaing them and saying that their error os last Friday was the root cause and thus they core the responsibility.

ujjjjjjjjj

Leroy42 wrote: »

The problem is that Gove, and Johnson and many other Tories, are actively stoking the fire of anti-EU feeling within the UK. They are making it out to be all the EU's fault, that the EU is punishing them.

none of that is true, but politicians words matter. When one constantly blames others it doesn't take much for that feeling to simply be accepted by the masses.

And that is exactly their plan. Whilst they can argue that there are issues with the implementation, rather than say that and look to work with the EU to resolve them, Gove sent a letter demanding the EU solve them, blaing them and saying that their error os last Friday was the root cause and thus they core the responsibility.

Yup agreed two left feet but they play to a gallery in the UK so somewhat inevitable, have long given getting upset about any tone from either side in Brexit debates. Emotions need to tone down everywhere.

20silkcut

Leroy42 wrote: »

The problem is that Gove, and Johnson and many other Tories, are actively stoking the fire of anti-EU feeling within the UK. They are making it out to be all the EU's fault, that the EU is punishing them.

none of that is true, but politicians words matter. When one constantly blames others it doesn't take much for that feeling to simply be accepted by the masses.

And that is exactly their plan. Whilst they can argue that there are issues with the implementation, rather than say that and look to work with the EU to resolve them, Gove sent a letter demanding the EU solve them, blaing them and saying that their error os last Friday was the root cause and thus they core the responsibility.

Gove et al can spin all the lies they want to their population. Public opinion in the U.K. is not the concern of the EU anymore.
Two sovereign entities should not be influenced by each other’s public opinions. Only their own public opinion is all that should matter.
And EU public opinion is not sympathetic to capitulating to the U.K..
Brexiteers can’t understand that, thinking that the Eu is a nebulous nothingness but it most definitely is not.
There is very little sympathy for the brexit cause outside Britain.

Sam Russell

I noticed the Arlene reiterated the lie that the UK military had to fill out customs forms to move their equipment into NI which is untrue as military equipment is exempt. The story originates from the army not having read the full requirements. Dobbo did not call her out on this.

Lies are always the stock in trade of the DUP and Brexiteers.

swampgas

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Would love to think that but have an unpleasant feeling our loyalist friends are bored and this is a new project for em. Ultimately I couldn't care less about the SM or whatever fudge is needed as long as we don't go back to shootings etc up North. Any fudge is worth pushing through under the radar to keep people shopping up North rather than shooting each other.

That's not a great approach though. One of the reasons the GFA was possible was shared membership of the single market. The UK's decision to leave the single market was always going to put pressure on the GFA, something that the DUP were salivating over, only it didn't quite work out the way they expected.

However it would, as a country, be insane for us to damage our position in the single market by disregarding the rules that must be applied. That would cause huge problems for our economy and standing in the world. It's just not an option.

RobMc59

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Would love to think that but have an unpleasant feeling our loyalist friends are bored and this is a new project for em. Ultimately I couldn't care less about the SM or whatever fudge is needed as long as we don't go back to shootings etc up North. Any fudge is worth pushing through under the radar to keep people shopping up North rather than shooting each other.

Sadly I fear you are correct and hope there can be agreement behind the scenes. Slightly off topic but I would think the potential for civil unrest has probably put the prospect of a UI even further away.

Enzokk

forgottenhills wrote: »

I love the hypocrisy on here.

The potential of some sort of customs/SM check border between ROI and NI - always referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh its very bad, should never happen, it would completely break the GFA, will bring war, pestilence etc.

An actual customs/SM check border now between Britain and NI - never referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh isn't it a great solution, totally within the spirit of the GFA, who gives a **** about the rights or feelings of Unionists, shur the Unionists will be clamouring for a United Ireland very soon etc.

Jeez.

It's a good job that our government is more sensible and have held out a olive branch to see if they can accommodate the concerns of NI businessmen ( who are nationalists as well as unionists by the way) by considering slight changes to the implementation of the NI Protocol to make it more workable.

Eh? This was always pointed out on here, Brexit doesn't make sense for NI at all. There is no way to square the circle of not having a border between the UK and NI and NI and Ireland. The DUP position was that the border on this island would be acceptable. The UK Government disagreed with them and put the border in the Irish Sea. We didn't do that on our own, this is the solution the UK was okay with that ruled out the only thing all sides, bar the DUP, agreed was not acceptable.

So if you are looking for blame on the Irish Sea border look at Westminster. Its interesting that the only party that is unhappy with the deal has representation to bring to the the attention of their government. It is not our fault if the democratically elected parliament doesn't agree with the DUP about where the border should be.

fash

forgottenhills wrote: »

I love the hypocrisy on here.

The potential of some sort of customs/SM check border between ROI and NI - always referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh its very bad, should never happen, it would completely break the GFA, will bring war, pestilence etc.

An actual customs/SM check border now between Britain and NI - never referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh isn't it a great solution, totally within the spirit of the GFA, who gives a **** about the rights or feelings of Unionists, shur the Unionists will be clamouring for a United Ireland very soon etc.

Who voted, campaigned for brexit and allowed their political representatives seek the hardest form of brexit possible and rejected (and continue to reject) all solutions to facilitate a soft border?
Hint:
.
So if there are s**t sandwiches to be eaten arising out of this- they must be made to be first in line.

blackcard

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, why should the EU get involved in what is principally a UK issue?
The border checks and delays were all predicted. Similar issues exist in Kent.
This is why the "Farage Garages" were constructed at ports. This is why the UK needed (but has so far failed) to recruit thousands of customs officers and vets.
All of the importation rules were already in place for someone who is importing or exporting with a third country.
Did the DUP not forsee issues with retailers trying to get stock from the UK post Dec 31? The likleihood was pretty much inevitable once the WA was agreed and although the UK dithered and wasted time on a final agreement, the likes of the Irish government (and others within the EU) were able to prepare for the inevitable mess. What was the DUP and other NI politicians doing to ensure that there would be no problems post Jan 1st?

Are you seriously saying that the UK government, the NI unionists and the loyalist terrorists were not aware that these issues might happen?

The main problem is that in NI certain politicians and terrorists are making an issue out of it, despite campaigning for brexit, which they now have obtained.

You see, I'm confused because you persist in your portrayal of the EU as a bad actor who behaves in a Machiavellian manner yet the evidence shows the opposite.
Was this not the Brexit that people voted for?
If not, in what way is it different?

I thought that Boris was pictured punching the air in victory a short while ago whilst the Express and the Telegraph extolled the Brexit concessions that he had won?

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sadly I fear you are correct and hope there can be agreement behind the scenes. Slightly off topic but I would think the potential for civil unrest has probably put the prospect of a UI even further away.

The only action that will slow down a United Ireland is the UK going for a BRINO at the minimum. Anything else accelerates the move towards a United Ireland.

fly_agaric

forgottenhills wrote: »

I love the hypocrisy on here.

The potential of some sort of customs/SM check border between ROI and NI - always referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh its very bad, should never happen, it would completely break the GFA, will bring war, pestilence etc.

An actual customs/SM check border now between Britain and NI - never referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh isn't it a great solution, totally within the spirit of the GFA, who gives a **** about the rights or feelings of Unionists, shur the Unionists will be clamouring for a United Ireland very soon etc.

Does anyone believe having customs checks between UK-NI is "great"?
I mean it is stirring things up in NI that were relatively quiescent before the UK delivered us the Benefits of Brexit.
It just suits Ireland (and possibly nationalists in NI?) better than the only other possible outcomes of customs checks on our own border with NI or de facto leaving the Single Market and EU Customs Union along with the UK. The EU secured that in the end (IMO) because getting the right type of Brexit (very, very "hard") was more important to the UK govt. at the time than NI.

However, it's pretty clear the UK govt. are extremely unhappy and will work hard to destroy it (the NI Protocol). They haven't quite got up the guts to just renege on it yet and provoke a huge row with the EU, so they just obstruct and cavil for now, although that Gove letter did sound a bit like a threat.

I suppose they don't care what happens after they get their way and will leave us here in Ireland holding the bag of shít.

RobMc59

Enzokk wrote: »

The only action that will slow down a United Ireland is the UK going for a BRINO at the minimum. Anything else accelerates the move towards a United Ireland.

I'm not sure people in Ireland will want this kind of conflict spilling over into the Republic.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not sure people in Ireland will want this kind of conflict spilling over into the Republic.

What 'conflict'?

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not sure people in Ireland will want this kind of conflict spilling over into the Republic.

Thank you for stating the obvious. Now let us fight Brexit all over again, you cannot leave the single market and customs union and have no checks between the EU and the UK. You cannot have checks on this island. So we are back where we were when all of this madness kicked off. The UK finds itself in a impossible position where it can leave the EU but it will lead to pain and possible violence on this island.

Ireland cannot stop this, only the UK can. Stop trying to lay the blame at our feet for what is a English problem that can only be solved by the English parliament (Yes, I know, parliament consists of MP's from all 4 nations but the Tories with their English MP's have a big enough majority to decide what the other nations will do).

ujjjjjjjjj

swampgas wrote: »

That's not a great approach though. One of the reasons the GFA was possible was shared membership of the single market. The UK's decision to leave the single market was always going to put pressure on the GFA, something that the DUP were salivating over, only it didn't quite work out the way they expected.

However it would, as a country, be insane for us to damage our position in the single market by disregarding the rules that must be applied. That would cause huge problems for our economy and standing in the world. It's just not an option.

Not suggesting we fudge it alone, will have to be EU understood fudge for obvious reasons. Just feel the emotions are too high atm for rational discussion. I just hope people don't under estimate the potential for things getting outta hand with certain sections of the loyalist hard-core. We just need to avoid this at all cost and I don't think talk of a united Ireland is wise atm, like a red rag to a bull.

looksee

Every concession that the EU makes towards the UK, now that they have left, infringes their sovereignty. This illusory state of bliss is about the only thing the UK has achieved, surely the EU should not take it away? Bad enough that they will not be entirely treated as a free, sovereign and independent country till June, to introduce any more fudges or allowances is surely not what the UK wants?

BonnieSituation

forgottenhills wrote: »

I love the hypocrisy on here.

The potential of some sort of customs/SM check border between ROI and NI - always referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh its very bad, should never happen, it would completely break the GFA, will bring war, pestilence etc.

An actual customs/SM check border now between Britain and NI - never referred to on here as a "hard border" - oh isn't it a great solution, totally within the spirit of the GFA, who gives a **** about the rights or feelings of Unionists, shur the Unionists will be clamouring for a United Ireland very soon etc.

Jeez.

It's a good job that our government is more sensible and have held out a olive branch to see if they can accommodate the concerns of NI businessmen ( who are nationalists as well as unionists by the way) by considering slight changes to the implementation of the NI Protocol to make it more workable.

How are their rights being impinged upon by the WA and the NI Protocol?

BonnieSituation

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Would love to think that but have an unpleasant feeling our loyalist friends are bored and this is a new project for em. Ultimately I couldn't care less about the SM or whatever fudge is needed as long as we don't go back to shootings etc up North. Any fudge is worth pushing through under the radar to keep people shopping up North rather than shooting each other.

Again, the fudge is what is in place to keep the GFA going. Why should we acquiesce to Loyalist threats?

They made this bed. Time to own it.

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sadly I fear you are correct and hope there can be agreement behind the scenes.

There was an agreement 6 weeks ago. What has changed?

Slightly off topic but I would think the potential for civil unrest has probably put the prospect of a UI even further away.

win win so for you and other unionists

BonnieSituation

RobMc59 wrote: »

I'm not sure people in Ireland will want this kind of conflict spilling over into the Republic.

Is that a threat again?

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Is that a threat again?

The EU seems to think there is but hopefully they are wrong.

ujjjjjjjjj

RobMc59 wrote: »

The EU seems to think there is but hopefully they are wrong.

Let's just all hope it all calms down.

RobMc59

BonnieSituation wrote: »

There was an agreement 6 weeks ago. What has changed?



win win so for you and other unionists

Yes,I am a Unionist but don`t agree with intimidation and other terrorist methods,we`ve seen enough of that with those other clowns the ira or whatever they call themselves these days.

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What 'conflict'?

I abhor terrorism francie and don`t attempt to glorify it as some do.

FrancieBrady

RobMc59 wrote: »

I abhor terrorism francie and don`t attempt to glorify it as some do.

Not what I asked.

peter kern

so what are the options
have the customs etc controls on the uk departure ports. most likely the easiest way.

how much will the uk pay for an extension till 2023? everything can be discussed with money .

offer the uk to send up 25 000 german protestant soldiers to NI to secure the eu officials.for some strange reason i have a feeling the uk wont like that.

follow the agreement.

what else is possible?

RobMc59

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Not what I asked.

Extremists who will view conflict as a means to an end,you know what I mean.Those intent on causing discord and misery for the ordinary people,whether it`s in Ireland or the UK.