Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

ancapailldorcha

schmoo2k wrote: »

I was under the impression that the pro-brexit folks were a combination of the older generation and poorer less educated areas (traditional industrial areas outside London)? All the folks I know in the middle / upper class bracket were pro remain - happy to stand corrected, but I was of the opinion it was mostly the disenchanted who were happy to be lied to as any change had to be better than the current situation?

Yes and no. Roger Eatwell & Matthew Goodwin's National Populism: The Revolt Against Liberal Democracy goes through data to somewhat debunk the idea that only the less affluent demographics voted for Brexit. The argument about older voters holds water due to their general propensity to actually vote. A lot of affluent constituencies voted for Brexit. It's true that most cities and University towns voted remain but most constituencies that weren't in cities or University towns were for leave.

I think plenty of middle class people were happy to vote Leave thinking they'd either be insulated or they'd be able to live abroad like British immigrants living in Spain. There's certainly the disenfranchised and exploited represented in the Brexit vote but there's no shortage of middle class privilege there as well. University education correlates with a remain vote but many middle class people don't have degrees and earned their wealth via the trades or other routes like apprenticeships.

rock22

looksee wrote: »

I realise this is not something created just to annoy brexiters, but really that is ridiculous - even the amount of time that a European country has to take to check the forms should be enough to get it streamlined.

How would you streamline it?

Having read the article, I cannot see any unnecessary steps or forms. Remember this process has to work for all 3rd countries so a lot of checks and paperwork are needed to identify source , species, how and where caught, value , etc.

One option might be to export to a single fish wholesaler in the EU and let then distribute to all other customers. That gets rid of 22 invoices to start with.

At the end of the day , the UK have made it clear that they do not want a closer relationship with the EU. we can't force them to be "our close friend"

tubercolossus

rock22 wrote: »

How would you streamline it?

Having read the article, I cannot see any unnecessary steps or forms. Remember this process has to work for all 3rd countries so a lot of checks and paperwork are needed to identify source , species, how and where caught, value , etc.

One option might be to export to a single fish wholesaler in the EU and let then distribute to all other customers. That gets rid of 22 invoices to start with.

At the end of the day , the UK have made it clear that they do not want a closer relationship with the EU. we can't force them to be "our close friend"

Yes, it can't stressed enough that this is all the logical consequence of the UK's premeditated choices. If they had chosen to stay in the SM/CU or even pretended to leave while actually not deviating (I think it's clear by now that many Brexit supporters are stupid enough to make that feasible) then NONE of this upheaval would be happening.

RobMc59

tubercolossus wrote: »

Yes, it can't stressed enough that this is all the logical consequence of the UK's premeditated choices. If they had chosen to stay in the SM/CU or even pretended to leave while actually not deviating (I think it's clear by now that many Brexit supporters are stupid enough to make that feasible) then NONE of this upheaval would be happening.

As a country that exports a fair bit of produce to the UK are Irish farmers (for example)worried about a tit for tat reaction from the UK in July?

Seth Brundle

Things are continuing to look up for the UK now...

https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson_MP/status/1357816583620550658

yagan

rock22 wrote: »

How would you streamline it?

Having read the article, I cannot see any unnecessary steps or forms. Remember this process has to work for all 3rd countries so a lot of checks and paperwork are needed to identify source , species, how and where caught, value , etc.

One option might be to export to a single fish wholesaler in the EU and let then distribute to all other customers. That gets rid of 22 invoices to start with.

At the end of the day , the UK have made it clear that they do not want a closer relationship with the EU. we can't force them to be "our close friend"

Precisely. New Zealand lamb producers have very few checks on their exports to the EU because they've signed up to EU certification in New Zealand!

Capt'n Midnight

looksee wrote: »

I realise this is not something created just to annoy brexiters, but really that is ridiculous - even the amount of time that a European country has to take to check the forms should be enough to get it streamlined.

The UK was enforcing those self same rules on all non EU imports just 6 weeks ago. And are still doing so unless they've completely abandoned all the WTO* rules, and they plan to impose similar rules on EU imports in June if they can get their systems working.

The UK was one of the countries that made those rules. And they had a veto.

The UK used it's veto to block tariffs on cheap Chinese steel. Welsh steel is now facing tariffs as it's likely to go over quota before the renegotiation.

France was suing the UK for billions for previous breaches of rules of origin where Chinese imports were relabelled.


It's way too late to claim ignorance. It's another one of those Brexit messes where if you dig deep enough you find UK fingerprints everywhere.

*The UK is in a WTO dispute with the US over subsidies.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

As a country that exports a fair bit of produce to the UK are Irish farmers (for example)worried about a tit for tat reaction from the UK in July?

What tit for tat?

This is exactly what the UK voted for, what they wanted, what they negotiated.

What exactly are you accusing the EU or doing that would lead to this apparent retaliation?

Everything that is happening now is exactly as the UK knew it would be?

fash

Leroy42 wrote: »

What tit for tat?

This is exactly what the UK voted for, what they wanted, what they negotiated.

What exactly are you accusing the EU or doing that would lead to this apparent retaliation?

Everything that is happening now is exactly as the UK knew it would be?

Rob & his fellow brexiters voted for special treatment from the EU - to have their cake and eat it - it is obviously an affront to all brexiters that the UK is treated the same as anyone else.

BorneTobyWilde

If DUP want NI to have a Hard Boarder then it should come with them leaving the EU too. They are crying about being in EU, and if you take that away they'd be crying about leaving it. What a crowd of nagging bitches .

RobMc59

Leroy42 wrote: »

What tit for tat?

This is exactly what the UK voted for, what they wanted, what they negotiated.

What exactly are you accusing the EU or doing that would lead to this apparent retaliation?

Everything that is happening now is exactly as the UK knew it would be?

Not accusing them of anything but I expect the UK to reciprocate in kind in July with reams of paperwork required for imports into the UK,shipments refused as they may be a kilo over or something stupid like labelled Eire instead of Ireland.
At least those countries exporting to the UK have some time to make sure they're ready unlike the UK who weren't.

yagan

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

If DUP want NI to have a Hard Boarder then it should come with them leaving the EU too. They are crying about being in EU, and if you take that away they'd be crying about leaving it. What a crowd of nagging bitches .

The unionists were never really British. 25.000 German guns landed in Larne after Carson had gone to the Kaiser to discuss switching Ulster allegiance to Berlin to defy Home Rule.

After being granted their own sectarian paradise they saluted British nationalism, but English nationalism trumped the union with Brexit.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not accusing them of anything but I expect the UK to reciprocate in kind in July with reams of paperwork required for imports into the UK,shipments refused as they may be a kilo over or something stupid like labelled Eire instead of Ireland.
At least those countries exporting to the UK have some time to make sure they're ready unlike the UK who weren't.

You said tit for tat, that implies one side doing something to get back at the other.

Yet you have no reason to think that.

What have the EU done that requires retaliation?

This is the Brexit you wanted, the Brexit the UK voted for, the Brexit the HoC voted through.

How did other countries have more time to prepare? UK decided that 1st January was the date, no delays. Again, you are blaming the wrong people. Many pointed out the UK needed more time but Johnson, Gove et al knew better.

And get ready for what exactly? Surely you knew the paperwork required, it is worth for sovereignty after all!


Brexiteers continue to moan about Brexit everyday. Is this really what winning was supposed to feel like?

looksee

My remark about a ridiculous amount of paperwork - yes I fully agree that this was what the UK wanted, no-one was paying any attention at all and this kind of thing was inevitable. It just seems that, in any circumstances, it isn't in anyone's interests to have to supply, and at the other end, read, that crazy amount of stuff.

Presumably in the long run it would be possible for most firms to auto-fill a lot of those forms.

Still, as I have said before, the wisest people are those who know nothing about something they are commenting on, and at this point I am one of those.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not accusing them of anything but I expect the UK to reciprocate in kind in July with reams of paperwork required for imports into the UK,shipments refused as they may be a kilo over or something stupid like labelled Eire instead of Ireland.
At least those countries exporting to the UK have some time to make sure they're ready unlike the UK who weren't.

If imports from other third party countries are a kilo over then the same applies.

Are you upset that the UK is being treated as a non EU member?

yagan

looksee wrote: »

Presumably in the long run it would be possible for most firms to auto-fill a lot of those forms.
.

If checks find that one consignment has incorrect accompanying paperwork then that exporter could find themselves sin binned, so there's no auto forming filling shortcut.

Each consignment must have exact matching paperwork.

RobMc59

yagan wrote: »

If imports from other third party countries are a kilo over then the same applies.

Are you upset that the UK is being treated as a non EU member?

Not upset but I can see a tit for tat paperwork nightmare situation for all on the horizon.Obviously this will be viewed here as the UK's fault.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not upset but I can see a tit for tat paperwork nightmare situation for all on the horizon.Obviously this will be viewed here as the UK's fault.

You say "here", but often talk about the EU as "there".

Irish businesses bypassing the British landbridge don't care about your tit for tat war, either are those who spent the last four years getting Brexit ready.

They're just preferring to avoid the paperwork hassle of operating outside the EU single market.

Junkyard Tom

If Unionist politicians in the north had a brain between them they could team up with the Fishermen, farmers, and food exporters, to put pressure on the Tories to introduce UK/EU SPS alignment. The EU has SPS agreements with all manner of countries throughout the globe but the extreme Brexiters must be placated.

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not upset but I can see a tit for tat paperwork nightmare situation for all on the horizon.Obviously this will be viewed here as the UK's fault.

What are you posting about, tit for tat? The deal is signed and the paperwork required is known. The problem is because Johnson left it to the last minute so the preparation for companies to know about what paperwork has meant that companies have been caught unawares.

If the UK increases the amount of paperwork required then the EU will respond in kind. You see this disruption and the coming disruption as some sort of plan from the EU to punish the UK, it is just the deal your leader signed.

Leroy42

Rob, UK are free, within the terms of the agreement, to ask for any paperwork. They are not currently doing that because they simply are not ready.

Remember who refused to ask for an extension?

I'll ask again. What are the EU doing that you feel the UK should retaliate against?

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

Not upset but I can see a tit for tat paperwork nightmare situation for all on the horizon.Obviously this will be viewed here as the UK's fault.

That would be petty and stupid. It's not a war.

PeadarCo

looksee wrote: »

My remark about a ridiculous amount of paperwork - yes I fully agree that this was what the UK wanted, no-one was paying any attention at all and this kind of thing was inevitable. It just seems that, in any circumstances, it isn't in anyone's interests to have to supply, and at the other end, read, that crazy amount of stuff.

Presumably in the long run it would be possible for most firms to auto-fill a lot of those forms.

Still, as I have said before, the wisest people are those who know nothing about something they are commenting on, and at this point I am one of those.

If the UK wants to avoid all this stuff the simplest way would be rejoin the EU. This paper work all the assorted hassle should not be news to the UK. Its how they treated non EU countries when they were part of the EU. Unfortunately for a lot of businesses in UK especially small ones they are having to fill out a lot of this for the first time in decades. Anyone who has dealt with customs in any capacity will tell you its a pain and a time/money sink.

The reason why the EU has the commission, the parliament, all the directives etc is to eliminate all this paperwork. It's not a simple process. The reason for customs to ensure all imports meet a countries relevant standards/laws. Its not done for the sake of it. Coordinating different standards between different countries is not simple hence how long it takes to get trade deals done.

Look at the EU Canada trade agreement and the opposition to it from some quarters for example. Its trying to eliminate some of the paper work you are talking about between the EU and Canada.

RobMc59

yagan wrote: »

You say "here", but often talk about the EU as "there".

Irish businesses bypassing the British landbridge don't care about your tit for tat war, either are those who spent the last four years getting Brexit ready.

They're just preferring to avoid the paperwork hassle of operating outside the EU single market.

Yagan, personally I'm happy with the trading arrangements the UK has with EU countries.I like French products and Irish meat for example.
Irish businesses bypassing the UK landbridge by using routes directly from Europe is Britain's loss and obviously a plus for European countries.What I'm bringing up is (as dolanbaker pointed out)the UK and EU seem to be drifting apart.Just as EU countries are making new alliances so will the UK.Any tit for tat 'war' as you choose to call it will affect us all adversely as countries involved in 'wars' usually find out.
I've said it before but I wish I had a pound for every poster who's said they don't really care but still frequent anti UK threads with fascinating names like 'will Britain just p*ss off' etc.

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yagan, personally I'm happy with the trading arrangements the UK has with EU countries.I like French products and Irish meat for example.
Irish businesses bypassing the UK landbridge by using routes directly from Europe is Britain's loss and obviously a plus for European countries.What I'm bringing up is (as dolanbaker pointed out)the UK and EU seem to be drifting apart.Just as EU countries are making new alliances so will the UK.Any tit for tat 'war' as you choose to call it will affect us all adversely as countries involved in 'wars' usually find out.
I've said it before but I wish I had a pound for every poster who's said they don't really care but still frequent anti UK threads with fascinating names like 'will Britain just p*ss off etc.

So still no actual reasons for tit for tat?

Just something you think might happen? If it happens, it will be entirely down to thevUK who cannot seem to understand why anything has changed.

As for the UK & EU drifting apart, well yeah, that was the entire point of Brexit.

Enzokk

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yagan, personally I'm happy with the trading arrangements the UK has with EU countries.I like French products and Irish meat for example.
Irish businesses bypassing the UK landbridge by using routes directly from Europe is Britain's loss and obviously a plus for European countries.What I'm bringing up is (as dolanbaker pointed out)the UK and EU seem to be drifting apart.Just as EU countries are making new alliances so will the UK.Any tit for tat 'war' as you choose to call it will affect us all adversely as countries involved in 'wars' usually find out.
I've said it before but I wish I had a pound for every poster who's said they don't really care but still frequent anti UK threads with fascinating names like 'will Britain just p*ss off' etc.

On the bolded part, the EU will have its rules and standards. The UK has said repeatedly that it is not interested in lowering its standards and in many areas it has higher standards than the UK. The only way more checks and tariffs occur is if the UK lowers their standards and it benefits UK companies unfairly. The UK could sign up tomorrow to a deal that guarantees it will not lower standards and the barriers will lessen for trade.

So your concern about a tit for tat paperwork is nothing of the sort. It will be the UK signing deals with other countries that mean it can trade goods that doesn't meet EU standards within the EU single market. The EU will try to ensure this doesn't happen.

Once again you posting about the EU as if it is trying to punish the UK in some scenario is telling. You obviously see the EU as the antagonist for the UK at the moment when it is nothing of the sort. This is also why you are pulled up about your posts a lot on here, because there is a hostility in them.

yagan

RobMc59 wrote: »

Yagan, personally I'm happy with the trading arrangements the UK has with EU countries.I like French products and Irish meat for example.
Irish businesses bypassing the UK landbridge by using routes directly from Europe is Britain's loss and obviously a plus for European countries.What I'm bringing up is (as dolanbaker pointed out)the UK and EU seem to be drifting apart.Just as EU countries are making new alliances so will the UK.Any tit for tat 'war' as you choose to call it will affect us all adversely as countries involved in 'wars' usually find out.
I've said it before but I wish I had a pound for every poster who's said they don't really care but still frequent anti UK threads with fascinating names like 'will Britain just p*ss off' etc.

I was quoting you when I mentioned tit for tat.

Don't attribute your own words to others.

McGiver

correct horse battery staple wrote:

Aside I think every truck coming from uk should be put under a microscope, this is a country that imported Chinese tat and got caught, a country that gave us foot and mouth nearly killing farming here, a country that a month ago gave a new deadlier strain of Covid and is now busy creating fertile ground for an even worse one to arise, a country whose ministers publicly welcomed lower standard food from US

BSE

20silkcut

In fairness the U.K. has exported a lot of good stuff as well besides BSE, foot and mouth etc. Just for balance .

Sam Russell

20silkcut wrote: »

In fairness the U.K. has exported a lot of good stuff as well besides BSE, foot and mouth etc. Just for balance .

Yes they indeed have exported a lot of good stuff, but we paid good money for it. We got the BSE and the foot and mouth without asking or without knowing or wanting.

Some friend.