Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Leroy42

redcup342 wrote: »

Some Issues I've seen here in Germany directly related to Brexit.

German Companies are laying off people working remotely in the UK, IR35 came into force, Contractors are being forced to pay the same rates as Permanent employees. They can't easily move to Germany now either due to the whole work permit thing.

Double Divorce now required, situation unclear with German Pensions as a UK Divorce is no longer covered by EU Rules.

UK Car hire excess companies and other insurance forms cancelled policies as they are no longer allowed to operate in the EU.

It's no longer possible to easily move back to the UK and maintain Social Security Entitlements, if you leave you essentially break your contributions which has implications in multiple countries (Germany/NL etc)

UK Citizens are essentially stuck wherever they are, for example a friend of mine is a British Citizen, wants to go and work in spain for 6 months.

The whole process costs 5k to sort out everything for Spain and if he leaves NL he will lose residency meaning he'll lose all rights that had due to having Dutch residency pre Jan 1st 2021, so he can't do it really.

Whatever about Trade and so on, the free movement thing is a real shot in the balls, its starting to affect peoples lives big time.

If you are an EU (Non Irish) Citizen you only lost the UK as an option, the UK lost everywhere else as an option.

It will be interesting to see what happens in a years time, the UK Government was blessed with COVID it's easy to blame everything on that and use it as a distraction.

Nothing will happen. The vast majority of people won't see that as having an impact on their lives. If anyone does raise the issue they will be mocked for thinking they are better off outside the UK, they should move to the EU is they love it that much or they should get a proper one in the UK and pay taxes there (one of a combination of the these)

The Au Pair issue raised by PMFoster at the weekend is a case in point. It isn't the fact whether one needs or uses an Au Pair, it is the fact that this is yet another hurdle being erected because of Brexit. Not because it will make anything better, not because of workers in the UK, or children, or anything. Just because. But many simply dismissed it as the elites and people with more money than sense etc. Nobody was willing to join the dots and see the reality that everything is being made more difficult.

Things are being made more difficult in many areas simply because. Sovereignty apparently.

dogbert27

Deleted User wrote: »

Fair, "it is not seen as a parody" by all consumers probably reflects my opinion on it better and reads more accurately.

The point being that dismissing UK red-tops as being "only red-tops" completely misses the influence they wield on UK public opinion. It is not a good idea to write them off as noise and not reflective of opinions of some % of their readers.

While many dismiss the red-tops it is these papers that I would say the majority of people who voted for Brexit got their information to make their decision.

tubercolossus

RobMc59 wrote: »

Sam,I believe we've clashed before about British wartime events/accounts.I accept you have an interest in this subject and don't question your integrity for a second.I admit the later comments(not by you)about the UK being a fascist country probably incensed me sufficiently to post yesterday.
I'm also interested in British military history and accept you can't win 'em all,Dunkirk for example was a military defeat,the British celebrating so many of our troops escaping there to fight another day is frequently mistakenly seen as British arrogance and delusion here on boards.Interestingly,back in the late 80s I spoke to an Irish soldier who served in the BA and was at Dunkirk.He was just happy so many of them escaped from there.
Regarding the UK being a fascist country(which you have never claimed to the best of my knowledge).As a young lad,I holidayed in Spain in the late 60s and early 70s-now that was fascism!Lovely,unspoilt place back then(still is in parts)I had never seen a real machine gun back then,the sight of the Spanish police dressed in exact replica uniforms of German ww2 soldiers,even down to those strange trousers with the sides sticking out and German style machine guns,the only difference being the strange hats I can only describe as similar to a matadors hat.
The account i posted told to me by my 99 year old mother is as she told me,I was unaware about German bombers dropping mines into the river but searched it and they did.She has never mentioned V2s but has mentioned V1s (doodlebug) she says you could hear the engine but when the noise stopped you knew it was about to hit the ground.
This next bit isn't aimed at you Sam,some may say what has any of that got to do with brexit?Which may be true but the world did exist before the EU and Britain was a beacon during ww2 for the free people of Europe escaping the nazis.
Edit.Ive attached a link about the German attacks on this area during ww2.

"Liverpool Blitz - Wikipedia" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_Blitz

I'd like to see the evidence for the assertion that celebrating Dunkirk is seen as arrogant and deluded on here. I don't think anyone would reasonably make that claim, bar maybe some of our more Republican posters. And you shouldn't assume that there's some sort of homogenous, monolithic opposition to your Brit-centric point of view here. One of my great-grandfathers is buried in a military cemetery in northern France (plan to visit someday), and my dad served on a destroyer for the Royal Navy in the early 50s. They still took casualties though, I think they were shelled somewhere in the middle east - possibly something to do with Suez.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Let's take the WW2 stuff to the history forum please. Back on topic if ye would be so kind.

PeadarCo

tubercolossus wrote: »

I'd like to see the evidence for the assertion that celebrating Dunkirk is seen as arrogant and deluded on here. I don't think anyone would reasonably make that claim, bar maybe some of our more Republican posters. And you shouldn't assume that there's some sort of homogenous, monolithic opposition to your Brit-centric point of view here. One of my great-grandfathers is buried in a military cemetery in northern France (plan to visit someday), and my dad served on a destroyer for the Royal Navy in the early 50s. They still took casualties though, I think they were shelled somewhere in the middle east - possibly something to do with Suez.

It think people have to distinguish being anti British and being frustrated with a UK government that has declared economic war on itself. Ireland is a country that has been hit in crossfire. The sudden imposing of restrictions on the UK with its largest trade partner are more akin to sanctions imposed on enemy nations during a dispute. However the UK has willingly imposed them on itself.

Professor Moriarty

PeadarCo wrote: »

It think people have to distinguish being anti British and being frustrated with a UK government that has declared economic war on itself. Ireland is a country that has been hit in crossfire. The sudden imposing of restrictions on the UK with its largest trade partner are more akin to sanctions imposed on enemy nations during a dispute. However the UK has willingly imposed them on itself.

Exactly.

Back to Brexit fallout, it looks like the PSNI were able to find the graffiti artists responsible for trying to "light the blue touchpaper"


https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0208/1195721-brexit-graffiti/

Two men have been charged with criminal damage in connection with graffiti condemning Irish Sea border checks in a Northern Ireland port town.
The men, aged 21 and 25, were arrested in Larne on Saturday evening.
They both have been charged with eight counts of criminal damage and with possessing an article with intent to damage property.
They are due to appear before Coleraine Magistrates' Court.
Slogans were painted at various locations in the town on Saturday, one stating "Larne says no to Irish Sea Border".

No mention of being members of any "organisation" as I suspected earlier, a lone wolf type of incident.

tubercolossus

Deleted User wrote: »

Back to Brexit fallout, it looks like the PSNI were able to find the graffiti artists responsible for trying to "light the blue touchpaper"

https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0208/1195721-brexit-graffiti/

No mention of being members of any "organisation" as I suspected earlier, a lone wolf type of incident.

Be funny if it turned out they were related to a member of the DUP.

tubercolossus

tubercolossus wrote: »

Be funny if it turned out they were related to a member of the DUP.

More likely to be like the ISIS attacks that happened in Europe in recent years, individuals were influenced by the rhetoric coming from certain leaders, while at the same time having absolutely no connections of any kind to them.

Hurrache

Deleted User wrote: »

Back to Brexit fallout, it looks like the PSNI were able to find the graffiti artists responsible for trying to "light the blue touchpaper"

What's depressing is the age of the 2 idiots. They've no idea of the history of the country they live in.

Strazdas

Deleted User wrote: »

Back to Brexit fallout, it looks like the PSNI were able to find the graffiti artists responsible for trying to "light the blue touchpaper"


https://www.rte.ie/news/regional/2021/0208/1195721-brexit-graffiti/





No mention of being members of any "organisation" as I suspected earlier, a lone wolf type of incident.

Hasn't it being claimed in fact that the DUP were responsible for the whole story? Not the graffiti obviously but the fact that it became a big media event.

FrancieBrady

Strazdas wrote: »

Hasn't it being claimed in fact that the DUP were responsible for the whole story? Not the graffiti obviously but the fact that it became a big media event.

Yes, looks like the DUP acted without any credible threat or any concern from unions.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/sam-mcbride-curious-and-dangerous-week-ends-first-hint-hope-unionists-hoping-remove-irish-sea-border-3125872

cameramonkey

Hurrache wrote: »

What's depressing is the age of the 2 idiots. They've no idea of the history of the country they live in.

they might have, just because they are young does not mean they are ignorant. However they may be.

ArmaniJeanss

dogbert27 wrote: »

100,000 pigs still not sold this year and who is to blame......?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9234807/As-100-000-pigs-languish-limbo-no-wonder-one-six-farmers-threatening-sell-up.html

The two farmers interviewed are in the business of exporting post-birth sows.
It's a niche corner of the market. Because they are older their meat is tougher (arguably more tasty but that tends to appeal more to a foreign palate than the UK shoppers who traditionally prefer their food bland.)

Conversely it's an expensive operation - by definition as they are older you've had to feed them for longer - and because they have been through a pregnancy they will have a longer medical history of drugs/shots/supplements.

Because of their age and medical history the form-filling and checking will be especially strict. It's baffling that this appears to be a shock to Mr Lister and Mr Mutimer, the chairman & vice-chairman of the National Pig Association. I mean, they are two of the people who should have been completely on top of this years ago (assuming the NPA is a serious functioning organisation)

Mr Mutimer is then allowed throw in some unchecked claim that these rules don't apply to New Zealand imports to the EU. Highly unlikely.

Finally some editorialising by the journalist about how shocking it is that the system hasn't been computerised. C'mon, there was never a need for it to be computerised, because probably 95%+ of the pork consumed within the EU came from within the CU/SM when the UK was a member. It was previously, as you said at the top of the article, only two forms that had to filled out in minutes, so no need to computerise. It's you leaving that has caused the paperwork overload.

Whole article is maddening really. The generally anti-Brexit tone of the comments gives some hope though.

timetogo1

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Mr Mutimer is then allowed throw in some unchecked claim that these rules don't apply to New Zealand imports to the EU. Highly unlikely.

I think New Zealand more closely align with EU rules for animal checks.

1: The UK probably are closely aligned at the moment but they don't want to continue those rules so hard luck.

and

2: So what if a different country has a better deal than the UK for certain aspects of their deals. If the UK negotiators are crap or chose to focus on different areas that's hardly New Zealands fault.
Although, admittedly the UK gov didn't take much time to scrutinise the deal, but again, who's fault is that?

Sam Russell

timetogo1 wrote: »

I think New Zealand more closely align with EU rules for animal checks.

1: The UK probably are closely aligned at the moment but they don't want to continue those rules so hard luck.

and

2: So what if a different country has a better deal than the UK for certain aspects of their deals. If the UK negotiators are crap or chose to focus on different areas that's hardly New Zealands fault.
Although, admittedly the UK gov didn't take much time to scrutinise the deal, but again, who's fault is that?

The New Zealand deal dates back to when the UK (and us) joined the EU. At the time, the UK imported a lot of butter and meat from NZ (historic arrangement) and they negotiated a deal for NZ, despite the EU had a mountain of butter and meat.

New Zealand take their agriculture seriously (and their Covid).

Hurrache

cameramonkey wrote: »

they might have, just because they are young does not mean they are ignorant. However they may be.

They may know history, but people can still have no idea as to the relevance. History repeats itself for a reason.

serfboard

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, looks like the DUP acted without any credible threat or any concern from unions.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/sam-mcbride-curious-and-dangerous-week-ends-first-hint-hope-unionists-hoping-remove-irish-sea-border-3125872

That's a great article. Here is the highlight for me:

Sam McBride wrote:

Many present problems have their roots in the DUP simplistically backing Brexit with no real appreciation of its complexity or clear agenda for how it should be delivered.

Rather than careful analysis of the single market, the customs union, sectoral alignment, and many of the other boringly technical debates to have dominated the last four and a half years, senior DUP figures batted away awkward questions with a populist promise that if people voted to leave the EU then everything would be better.

When forced to confront those questions after the referendum – and then when in a position to influence the answers to those questions – the DUP gave no sense of coherent independent thought beyond that of the ERG, on which it increasingly relied but whose agenda would ultimately diverge from its own.

Strazdas

serfboard wrote: »

That's a great article. Here is the highlight for me:

It looks for all the world that they held a five or ten minute minute meeting in 2016 about whether to support or reject Leave and came down for the first option. In the word of Collins, they may have signed their own death warrant at that moment.

johnnyskeleton

Strazdas wrote: »

It looks for all the world that they held a five or ten minute minute meeting in 2016 about whether to support or reject Leave and came down for the first option. In the word of Collins, they may have signed their own death warrant at that moment.

I dont think so. It was well thought out ideologically by the DUP. If your one and only policy is demonstrative British nationalism, voting to leave is the best way to express that position. Causing consternation amongst nationalists and moderate unionists is what the DUP revel in. Since their voters are amongst the poorest in the UK anyway, they figured an economic hit wont make a difference to their core vote so long as they can waive the flags extra firmly.

However, the point raised in that article is that by playing too much to their base, they risk losing the moderates who went with them to keep SF out, and the more extreme elements who also went with them for the same reason.

So the move for the DUP now is to remind those moderate voters that the one thing they love more than prosperity and an easy life is cocking a snook towards the Irish. Time will tell if that remains true or not

Leroy42

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I dont think so. It was well thought out ideologically by the DUP. If your one and only policy is demonstrative British nationalism, voting to leave is the best way to express that position. Causing consternation amongst nationalists and moderate unionists is what the DUP revel in. Since their voters are amongst the poorest in the UK anyway, they figured an economic hit wont make a difference to their core vote so long as they can waive the flags extra firmly.

However, the point raised in that article is that by playing too much to their base, they risk losing the moderates who went with them to keep SF out, and the more extreme elements who also went with them for the same reason.

So the move for the DUP now is to remind those moderate voters that the one thing they love more than prosperity and an easy life is cocking a snook towards the Irish. Time will tell if that remains true or not

Exactly, a 5 minute meeting.

No consideration of the actual reality and impacts, just a ideological decision to stick to the flag.

Professor Moriarty

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I dont think so. It was well thought out ideologically by the DUP. If your one and only policy is demonstrative British nationalism, voting to leave is the best way to express that position. Causing consternation amongst nationalists and moderate unionists is what the DUP revel in. Since their voters are amongst the poorest in the UK anyway, they figured an economic hit wont make a difference to their core vote so long as they can waive the flags extra firmly.

However, the point raised in that article is that by playing too much to their base, they risk losing the moderates who went with them to keep SF out, and the more extreme elements who also went with them for the same reason.

So the move for the DUP now is to remind those moderate voters that the one thing they love more than prosperity and an easy life is cocking a snook towards the Irish. Time will tell if that remains true or not

Interestingly, in polls from Oct 2020 to Jan 2021, the DUP went from 23% to 19%. The UUP stayed at 12%. Even more interestingly, the unionist party who garnered the DUP's 4% was the TUV who went from 6% to 10%. The TUV is even more DUP than the DUP.

farmerval

In Tommy Gorman's really long article on the RTE website at the weekend, he was suggesting there was a chance that some DUP MLA's might defect to the TUV for the next Northern Ireland assembly elections. If that happens it will leave Sinn Fein as the largest party and the party with the first Minister.

How the DUP would then react is hard to know. Go into all out NO mode(even more than normal?)

If both Unionist parties go further down the traditional belligerent road will it open a much bigger role for the Alliance or middle ground parties?

Imagine parties who just want the best for the people that live in Northern Ireland, not just where they are most aligned to, Dublin or London.

Strazdas

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

I dont think so. It was well thought out ideologically by the DUP. If your one and only policy is demonstrative British nationalism, voting to leave is the best way to express that position. Causing consternation amongst nationalists and moderate unionists is what the DUP revel in. Since their voters are amongst the poorest in the UK anyway, they figured an economic hit wont make a difference to their core vote so long as they can waive the flags extra firmly.

However, the point raised in that article is that by playing too much to their base, they risk losing the moderates who went with them to keep SF out, and the more extreme elements who also went with them for the same reason.

So the move for the DUP now is to remind those moderate voters that the one thing they love more than prosperity and an easy life is cocking a snook towards the Irish. Time will tell if that remains true or not

Well the strange thing is they went against a Conservative majority government and Cameron. You would have thought the DUP would naturally back their position : lining themselves up with the cranks and misfits of the ERG (plus Nigel Farage) was more of an odd one.

FrancieBrady

Strazdas wrote: »

Well the strange thing is they went against a Conservative majority government and Cameron. You would have thought the DUP would naturally back their position : lining themselves up with the cranks and misfits of the ERG (plus Nigel Farage) was more of an odd one.

Solutions the DUP has rejected since 2016:
1. Remain.
2. UK remaining in EU single market and customs union.
3. The backstop.
4. Extending the transition period.
5. NI Protocol.

Ben Done

serfboard wrote: »

That's a great article. Here is the highlight for me:

Originally Posted by Sam McBride
Many present problems have their roots in the DUP simplistically backing Brexit with no real appreciation of its complexity or clear agenda for how it should be delivered.

Rather than careful analysis of the single market, the customs union, sectoral alignment, and many of the other boringly technical debates to have dominated the last four and a half years, senior DUP figures batted away awkward questions with a populist promise that if people voted to leave the EU then everything would be better.

When forced to confront those questions after the referendum – and then when in a position to influence the answers to those questions – the DUP gave no sense of coherent independent thought beyond that of the ERG, on which it increasingly relied but whose agenda would ultimately diverge from its own.

Anyone who has read Sam McBride's Burned, about the cash for ash scandal, would recognise the DUP's simplistic command of the 'boringly technical details' referred to above,
With RHI, they didn't see the minor technical detail that Stormont, not London was on the hook for the horrendous spending excesses which were incurred precisely because they encouraged friends and family to "fill yer boots".

Imreoir2

farmerval wrote: »

In Tommy Gorman's really long article on the RTE website at the weekend, he was suggesting there was a chance that some DUP MLA's might defect to the TUV for the next Northern Ireland assembly elections. If that happens it will leave Sinn Fein as the largest party and the party with the first Minister.

How the DUP would then react is hard to know. Go into all out NO mode(even more than normal?)

If both Unionist parties go further down the traditional belligerent road will it open a much bigger role for the Alliance or middle ground parties?

Imagine parties who just want the best for the people that live in Northern Ireland, not just where they are most aligned to, Dublin or London.

Going into full 'Ulster says No' mode may well prove to be a fatal dead end for political Unionism now they have lost their majority. Alliance could be well placed to pick up moderate support from those who don't want the instability that comes with hardline intransigence.

fash

Somewhat off topic - but related to the brexiter complaint about the "undemocratic" EU:
.
The UK really could do with being remade into a functional (set of) democracy (-ies).

English friend who is a qualified teacher is planning on moving to Italy later this year.. Is this realistic with Brexit? He voted for it and I've pointed out how odd it was for him to vote for it when his life plan is to retire in Portugal, but he seems unfazed and doesn't think he'll have any problem moving to Italy.

His other option is Australia as his girlfriend is from therr. But he's complaining about the immigration requirements there as he's over 35 or whatever. Which is kind of ironic as his reason for voting for Brexit was so the UK could control the quality of immigrants and subject them to the same process that is effectively stopping him from moving to Australia.

dogbert27

Deleted User wrote: »

English friend who is a qualified teacher is planning on moving to Italy later this year.. Is this realistic with Brexit? He voted for it and I've pointed out how odd it was for him to vote for it when his life plan is to retire in Portugal, but he seems unfazed and doesn't think he'll have any problem moving to Italy.

How does he plan to support himself in Italy?

Does he think he can move there and then start looking for a job?

What teaching position does he think he can fulfil that an Italian or other EU person cannot?

The short answer would be no it's not realistic if he's a teacher and thinks he can just re-locate to Italy permanently and start teaching.

His defence will probably be:
"But Boris said nothing would change so that's why I voted for Brexit!"