Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Hurrache

RobMc59 wrote: »

I mentioned earlier that the EU was rattled imo.I believe this proves that is true.

Why do you believe this it true?

ancapailldorcha

RobMc59 wrote: »

I mentioned earlier that the EU was rattled imo.I believe this proves that is true.
Edit:and the UK was also responsible for Brussels thinking again.

If this is the depths to which you have to plunge then you might want to rethink your argument. Time will wipe the egg from the EU's face and business will continue as normal.

In the meantime, the Tories will continue to, and I quote, "F*ck business" with only perfunctory at most criticism from Brexiters and Eurosceptics.

redcup342

PeadarCo wrote: »

Of course it was a massive mistake. It was reversed within hours. If it reflects badly on the EU, how badly does it reflect on the UK that they already talking about renegotiating a deal that's only weeks old. This is the second time within a year that's happened. It does not reflect well on the UK that you can't rely on them to stick to a major deal for even a few months without talk about tearing things up.

To be honest I think the reason you are talking the EU Astrazeneca fiasco is to deflect from the absolute disaster Brexit is becoming. Something that was widely predicted. You are going to have to get used to hearing about the chaos Brexit has caused. We are only a few weeks in and the impact still hasn't had time to show up in a major reports. This is only the start.

It wasn't even reversed, it didnt happen as the Commission is accountable to Parliament.

Unlike the UK where Westminister isn't accountable to anyone except the English people (i.e. the Scots can't really decide anything and Northern Irelands only power is that it's a potential timebomb)

Leroy42

RobMc59 wrote: »

I mentioned earlier that the EU was rattled imo.I believe this proves that is true.
Edit:and the UK was also responsible for Brussels thinking again.

About vaccinations. It had nothing to do with Brexit until VdL made the mistake about Art 16.

It was then jumped on and made about Brexit for the UK as everything else about BRexit is a sh1tshow.

Fisheries, the one area that they promises would be great, is a complete and utter disaster. NI is a disaster. The UK solution to the deal that was so fantastic is didn't even require any serious debate?

To ask a foreign entity to change their laws so that the UK could save face. Which is a bit much coming from a country that just spent the last 5 years complaining about a foreign entity telling them what laws to have!

Hurrache

Leroy42 wrote: »

It was then jumped on and made about Brexit for the UK as everything else about BRexit is a sh1tshow.

Fisheries, the one area that they promises would be great, is a complete and utter disaster. NI is a disaster. The UK solution to the deal that was so fantastic is didn't even require any serious debate?

And their food industry is due another kicking...

https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1359439845777637378

And the music industry is getting angrier as the weeks go by
https://twitter.com/NME/status/1359227464120209409

The whole idea of thinking the EU is rattled and that the UK can insist on renegotiations is absolutely delusional. The UK have no control of what can or cannot happen anymore now that they signed, sold and pimped up their deal.

yagan

Leroy42 wrote: »

About vaccinations. It had nothing to do with Brexit until VdL made the mistake about Art 16.

I think the early approval of the AZ before trials were complete had everything to do with pushing a Britain First agenda very much in keeping with the "world beating" Brexit mindset.

Security advisors described handling Trump with his poor grasp of facts as like trying to herd a squirrel in traffic. Brexit Britain seems the same but by committee, where reaction trumps perspective and consequences are personal affronts.

All very irrational stuff.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

What is very disturbing is how many posters here never question anything brussels comes out with.

At the risk of labouring my earlier point, that's precisely because "anything brussels comes out with" is, in fact, the result of various interested parties - political, industrial, cultural, economic, nationalist - discussing and debating single issues, one after the other after the next. The inter-party alignments that push these matters from debate to policy shift all the time - exactly the kind of collaborative, cooperative, consensual governance that is missing from England's bipolar environment - so chances are I/we don't question "anything" that comes from Brussels, because (a) we had the chance to question it during the debate stage; and (b) at least half the time, we were in the group arguing for whatever has been announced because that's what happens when you govern by consensus.

redcup342

CelticRambler wrote: »

At the risk of labouring my earlier point, that's precisely because "anything brussels comes out with" is, in fact, the result of various interested parties - political, industrial, cultural, economic, nationalist - discussing and debating single issues, one after the other after the next. The inter-party alignments that push these matters from debate to policy shift all the time - exactly the kind of collaborative, cooperative, consensual governance that is missing from England's bipolar environment - so chances are I/we don't question "anything" that comes from Brussels, because (a) we had the chance to question it during the debate stage; and (b) at least half the time, we were in the group arguing for whatever has been announced because that's what happens when you govern by consensus.

Exactly, you let the people you voted for do their job.

CelticRambler

RobMc59 wrote: »

If it's a dispute with astra zeneca then even thinking about triggering it is a massive mistake.
Can you imagine the fallout for the EU?A potential squabble with a US already suspicious of the EU would be on the cards for a start.

Let me see if I can imagine it ...

...


...


Nope. "Civil servant clarifies ill-advised comment resulting in nothing happening" ...? Just can't imagine any fallout. In fact, I'm struggling to understand why someone such as yourself - who I would otherwise regard as quite level headed - is still going on about this non-event two weeks later. A "massive" mistake in the context of Covid would, in my opinion, be more along the lines of a government announcing the imposition of hotel quarantine measures for travellers from certain countries without having arrangements in place wth the hotels needed (not to mention not applying the rules to certain countries where the AZ-resistant strain is now circulating at non-negligible levels, e.g. Austria)

The Raging Bile Duct

From seeing who Britain voted for as MEPs, especially over the last while, it looks like they never took seriously the notion of the European parliament and collaboration.

fly_agaric

RobMc59 wrote: »

I've said I believe its too early to call brexit.
If the EU isn't rattled why did they threaten to trigger article 16?-Would you say that is the cool,calm actions of an organisation that is thinking rationally and believes itself to be in control?

They're rattled over Covid-19 & vaccinations IMO, not Brexit particularly or, NI or whatever.
The UK media coverage of the EUs row with AstraZeneca got a bit ridiculous (and thanks to dominance of English, that has a powerful effect).

The craziest bit of it IMO was painting the EU as this horrible "vaccine nationalist" amoral devil, while the UK imports vaccines manufactured in the EU and also has a deadlock on all UK produced supplies until they complete their vaccination programme.

tubercolossus

https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1359250844416438282

"EU sources say the lack of provisions on shellfish exports was brought up numerous times in the talks as a concern. But the UK refused to engage, as it did on wider SPS issues, over fears of 'being drawn into the EU's regulatory sphere'."

CelticRambler

tubercolossus wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1359250844416438282

"EU sources say the lack of provisions on shellfish exports was brought up numerous times in the talks as a concern. But the UK refused to engage, as it did on wider SPS issues, over fears of 'being drawn into the EU's regulatory sphere'."

That is precisely the same problem that had Kate Hoey complaining on Sky this morning that English cats and dogs have to have passports to travel to NI; and it's not as if it wasn't flagged well in advance - there were numerous articles in the papers, before the UK asked for the original extension to the transitional phase, warning pet-owners of the extra hoops they'd have to jump through to take their pets out of GB. But the Johnson administration doesn't listen, doesn't engage, doesn't believe that the rules apply to them ...

The Raging Bile Duct

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

From seeing who Britain voted for as MEPs, especially over the last while, it looks like they never took seriously the notion of the European parliament and collaboration.

Farage and Mummery come to mind with fishing. There's an unbelievable video of her lashing out saying "I have your face I'll remember your name" or something in one of the meetings. Crass and unfitting of any politician.

https://twitter.com/LiveFromBrexit/status/1358002634133807104

Leroy42

100%. It is obvious what the UK plan is, and has always been. They wanted a bare-bones trade deal with lots of side deals tacked on.

EU ruled this out from the outset, they don't want a repeat of the Swiss deal(s).

Make the deal, then immediately start to chip away on the basis that this little thing, say shellfish is not enough in of itself to create a reason for the EU to not engage. But only 6 weeks in and we are already at 2 letters of demands and plenty more to come.

I said earlier, the best thing for the EU to do now is nothing. Let the deal play out as it stands and after a year or so deal with the issues. There will never be an end to the UK demands, yet there will never actually e an engagement from the UK on working constructively together. They still want there cake and eat it deal, but realised early on that they didn't have the ability to get it directly so have taken this approach

yagan

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

From seeing who Britain voted for as MEPs, especially over the last while, it looks like they never took seriously the notion of the European parliament and collaboration.

Even remain voters didn't turn up for the last MEP elections, which were a clear opportunity to challenge the Brexit narrative.

In both our Nice and Lisbon referendums No won on very low mid 30% turn outs and in the reruns the No vote didn't increase whereas more yes voters turned up; it actually doubled for the Lisbon vote I think.

That last MEP election in the UK confirmed for me that the initial Brexit vote was more about domestic UK politics than the EU.

yagan

Leroy42 wrote: »

100%. It is obvious what the UK plan is, and has always been. They wanted a bare-bones trade deal with lots of side deals tacked on.

EU ruled this out from the outset, they don't want a repeat of the Swiss deal(s).

Make the deal, then immediately start to chip away on the basis that this little thing, say shellfish is not enough in of itself to create a reason for the EU to not engage. But only 6 weeks in and we are already at 2 letters of demands and plenty more to come.

I said earlier, the best thing for the EU to do now is nothing. Let the deal play out as it stands and after a year or so deal with the issues. There will never be an end to the UK demands, yet there will never actually e an engagement from the UK on working constructively together. They still want there cake and eat it deal, but realised early on that they didn't have the ability to get it directly so have taken this approach

I certainly wouldn't listen to their demands until they accept an EU embassy in London.

Peregrinus

Peregrinus wrote: »

It’s curious that the UK government’s good performance on vaccination, which is unrelated to Brexit or its implementation, should result in a more favourable view of the government’s handling of Brexit.

Is it completely unrelated? Surely their signing of deals outside of the EU plays a part? They could have done so if they were still in but they had no choice but to in this case.

If they can finish things up a month or two before the rest of Europe then their failures at the start will be pretty much forgotten. If it turns out they've used the wrong vaccine on the elderly and there's a few thousand extra deaths because of it then that could do either way. Maybe Boris could stutter out a statement about how he draws old steam trains and that'll provide enough cover a few months later when the report comes out.

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Is it completely unrelated? Surely their signing of deals outside of the EU plays a part? They could have done so if they were still in but they had no choice but to in this case.

If they can finish things up a month or two before the rest of Europe then their failures at the start will be pretty much forgotten. If it turns out they've used the wrong vaccine on the elderly and there's a few thousand extra deaths because of it then that could do either way. Maybe Boris could stutter out a statement about how he draws old steam trains and that'll provide enough cover a few months later when the report comes out.

Did they join the EU PPE scheme? No and yet they were still lin the EU. They could have opted to go with the EU vaccination process, but being in the EU didn't stop them from going it as they did. As evidence I present the fact that this is exactly what they did.

It is wholly unrelated to exit as it has nothing to do with it, save for it being a great distraction to the actual Brexit issues.

It is incredible that we are supposed to believe that on vaccines the UK were great and due to not being in the EU could do a much better job, whilst at the same time believing that the UK are entirely powerless against the might of the EU in terms of fishing, music touring, agriculture etc etc.

listermint

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

From seeing who Britain voted for as MEPs, especially over the last while, it looks like they never took seriously the notion of the European parliament and collaboration.

This does indeed beg the question who was providing the UKs input at the EU. Were the MEPs a faceless charade with UK ambassadors and foreign office actually providing the UKs position on things.

Because many of their MEPs never bothered turning up for votes and or committee meetings . Much of their time spent in the pub during the day time.

tubercolossus

Deleted User wrote: »

Farage and Mummery come to mind with fishing. There's an unbelievable video of her lashing out saying "I have your face I'll remember your name" or something in one of the meetings. Crass and unfitting of any politician.

https://twitter.com/LiveFromBrexit/status/1358002634133807104

Christ, she's like a Catherine Tate character acting up in the classroom.

tubercolossus

They will never give up the mighty Pound sterling, so the obvious outcome of this ****show is that a new government in a few years, probably Labour or a more enlightened Tory one (if such a thing can possibly ever exist again), quietly realigns with the SM or CU or both, along the lines of Norway/Iceland.

The Raging Bile Duct

Deleted User wrote: »

Farage and Mummery come to mind with fishing. There's an unbelievable video of her lashing out saying "I have your face I'll remember your name" or something in one of the meetings. Crass and unfitting of any politician.

Anne Widdecombe's speech comparing Brexit to the emancipation of slaves is another one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUS0cBdFicI

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Don't just paste videos here please. A post has been removed.

Snickers Man

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

Anne Widdecombe's speech comparing to Brexit to the emancipation of slaves is another one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUS0cBdFicI

One could only reply to that very atypical burst of multilingualism at the end in one way:

"So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, adieu"

And "Lassen sie nicht la porte hit you on the arse ar do bhealach amach"

fly_agaric

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is incredible that we are supposed to believe that on vaccines the UK were great and due to not being in the EU could do a much better job

I may have misunderstood the details here (?) but I think being outside the EU has helped them.

As far as I understand the UK could have approved vaccines themselves quickly and made their own decisions on how to use them inside the EU so Brexit/being outside the EU scheme had no impact as regards that.
Perhaps there might have been more questions asked in the UK about diverging from what other EU countries were doing?

The major benefit [of Brexit/not participating in the EU procurement] imo is the government could retain & use all supply manufactured in the UK.
This is a great boon, as the world is very short on supply of Covid-19 vaccines.

That would likely have been impossible inside the EU - UK would have to share. It is not an aspect of the success that is going to be trumpetted by the UK media.

Strazdas

fly_agaric wrote: »

I may have misunderstood the details here (?) but I think being outside the EU has helped them.

As far as I understand the UK could have approved vaccines themselves quickly and made their own decisions on how to use them inside the EU so Brexit/being outside the EU scheme had no impact as regards that.
Perhaps there might have been more questions asked in the UK about diverging from what other EU countries were doing?

The major benefit [of Brexit/not participating in the EU procurement] imo is the government could retain & use all supply manufactured in the UK.
This is a great boon, as the world is very short on supply of Covid-19 vaccines.

That would likely have been impossible inside the EU - UK would have to share. It is not an aspect of the success that is going to be trumpetted by the UK media.

Though this is disputed by vaccine experts. They say one country powering ahead with vaccinations is a fat lot of good if all its neighbours are lagging behind. It would be akin to Dublin vaccinating loads of people and the rest of the country hardly getting any vaccines. This is a virus that respects no borders.

yagan

tubercolossus wrote: »

They will never give up the mighty Pound sterling, so the obvious outcome of this ****show is that a new government in a few years, probably Labour or a more enlightened Tory one (if such a thing can possibly ever exist again), quietly realigns with the SM or CU or both, along the lines of Norway/Iceland.

I do wonder what the future hold for the GBP, since Brexit some have cited it as acting like an emerging market currency.

Akrasia

PeadarCo wrote: »

Of course it was a massive mistake. It was reversed within hours. If it reflects badly on the EU, how badly does it reflect on the UK that they already talking about renegotiating a deal that's only weeks old. This is the second time within a year that's happened. It does not reflect well on the UK that you can't rely on them to stick to a major deal for even a few months without talk about tearing things up.

To be honest I think the reason you are talking the EU Astrazeneca fiasco is to deflect from the absolute disaster Brexit is becoming. Something that was widely predicted. You are going to have to get used to hearing about the chaos Brexit has caused. We are only a few weeks in and the impact still hasn't had time to show up in a major reports. This is only the start.

Robs obsession with the A16 blunder a few weeks ago is blatant deflection and attempts at point scoring

It's a bit like going to watch a match where your own side scores 10 own goals and the other team has 1 player sent off for a brainless tackle, and you focus entirely on the tackle, which was identified, and remedied within the rules of the game, while not mentioning the ludicrous amount of own goals your own team scored against themselves.

Johnson and his team have been lurching from crisis to crisis for the past 5 years. Almost every single commitment and promise and projection that they have made has been found to have been either a lie, or an error.
Now that the chickens are coming home to roost and the reality of brexit is becoming apparent, the strategy is to deflect attention and try to blame others for all of the consequences of the Tory government's own choices

fash

. I note that our brexiter in residence was (hypocritically considering the UK's ties to Saudi, Russia etc) complaining about the EU's recent deal with China. It is interesting to note however the extent to which British fingers were all over that deal.