Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

Lemming wrote: »

So ... colour me surprised when upon asking him exactly who he thought he was voting for to represent him in the (then) recent european parliamentary elections, I was met with a "what? We have those?!" sort of response. It was not sarcasm. He was genuinely surprised to hear about it, which made me (and still does) wonder who he - and millions of other Britons - thought they were voting for at every MEP election cycle.

I think this is rooted in the idea (peddled by the British media) that the EU is some malevolent foreign power. If you disconnect from that media stream, and are not otherwise directly involved in activities that bring you into contact with EU institutions and procedures, then it'd be easy to not know that you should be choosing representatives, especially of the level-headed kind.

On the other hand, if you're a paid-up Europhobe, then voting for the most abrasive troublemaker to "fight for England" would be perfectly consistent with the tradition of domestic, adversarial politics that you'd grown up with.

Strazdas wrote: »

By contrast, one of the French presidential TV debates in 2017 was three and a half hours long and had an average of 10m viewers on TF1.

Sort of along the same lines, it annoys me no end to hear British anchors cut political interviews/debates short with the excuse "we're out of time" ... only to switch to some nonsensical non-story, or adverts, or a weather forecast, or the news headlines (with exactly the same reports and footage as one hour previously). Here in France, if an interesting debate is in full flow - on the publicly funded broadcast networks, at least - the pips and the news and the weather take second place. Similarly, one of the things I most remember from listening to Marion Finnucane on a Sunday morning was her pushing back commercial breaks to allow an argument to play out.

Seth Brundle

I note a lot of reports via Twitter about a British Chambers of Commerce survey of nearly 470 businesses that export from the UK, half of them are facing difficulties in terms of increased costs due mainly from increased paperwork challenges along with extra border checks.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/11/half-of-uk-exporters-to-eu-are-having-brexit-difficulties-survey-finds

I also see it being reported that the UK's ranking within Germany's trading partners has dropped one place (presumably despite the efforts of the German car manufacturers)...
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1359644244848373763

Sam Russell

The EU action on gathering the EU states to act in unison was a brave and ground breaking move to make tackling the pandemic as a union as a major project and not leave all member states to each look after their own.

It was brave move as the EU has no competence in Public Health, unlike animal health or food. It moved to control the acquisition of vaccines and distribute the doses on a population basis, and negotiate the best cost per dose. As it turns out, many suppliers agreed to supply at cost during the pandemic, and provision should have trumped cost, but that is hindsight.

Their caution in placing orders was due to none of the candidate vaccines passing the phase three tests and it would be incautious to place orders on unproven vaccines. That was partly because public health was outside their experience, and the EMA had just moved to Paris from London and many experienced staff did not move with the agency.

In a years time, the vaccines will be rolled out and either be effective or not, but Brexit will still be raging and new gotchas will be discovered causing unexpected problems. The EU will be tackling all the new problems it faces in the world and the UK will not even feature.

20silkcut

CelticRambler wrote: »

I think this is rooted in the idea (peddled by the British media) that the EU is some malevolent foreign power. If you disconnect from that media stream, and are not otherwise directly involved in activities that bring you into contact with EU institutions and procedures, then it'd be easy to not know that you should be choosing representatives, especially of the level-headed kind.

On the other hand, if you're a paid-up Europhobe, then voting for the most abrasive troublemaker to "fight for England" would be perfectly consistent with the tradition of domestic, adversarial politics that you'd grown up with.



Sort of along the same lines, it annoys me no end to hear British anchors cut political interviews/debates short with the excuse "we're out of time" ... only to switch to some nonsensical non-story, or adverts, or a weather forecast, or the news headlines (with exactly the same reports and footage as one hour previously). Here in France, if an interesting debate is in full flow - on the publicly funded broadcast networks, at least - the pips and the news and the weather take second place. Similarly, one of the things I most remember from listening to Marion Finnucane on a Sunday morning was her pushing back commercial breaks to allow an argument to play out.

Not to divert the thread but I think it’s a huge annoyance on all mainstream radio and television.
Cutting short and wrapping things up to suit a schedule. Often hear presenters apologising on RTÉ if they are a few seconds late going to the next presenter and I’m thinking what are they apologising for? This is not relevant to the listener and is for their own personal professional etiquette and should not be played out in front of us.
Also talking over interviewees to speed things up or shut things off is also very jarring on the ears of the listener. It does not add value and again it’s just dancing to the beat of a tight schedule to suit advertisers etc . Also the clicking of a mouse and rustling paper while an interviewee is talking is desperate to hear too. Podcasts and the like are such a pleasure to listen by comparison. Or programmes like the late debate where issues can be really teased out far from the frantic schedule of the daytime. Or threads like this. I know this is off topic but there is relevance in how brexit debates played out on BBC and how segments on project fear were wrapped up with a sense of it will be alright in the end and then cut into weather or the non sensical fluff stories you mention.

yagan

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Hopefully the EU brings out stricter anti money laundering regulation, then any trade with uk would require tons of know your customer/supplier type paperwork. About time EU does something about them external tax heavens, UK wants to act like a pirate cove maybe should treat it as one. While Ireland was being picked out for corporation taxation next door there was all sorts of dodgy carry on from dirty Russian and Arab money, hell it even invaded their soccer.

Most of the Irish bashing about corporate taxation was fictional and suddenly ceased when Johnson won the majority he needed to get GB out of the EU.

I remember the IT had piece about Wikipedia contributor called Britishfinance who seemed to have a solo crusade to trash Ireland's reputation within the EU.

dogbert27

Sam Russell wrote: »

The EU action on gathering the EU states to act in unison was a brave and ground breaking move to make tackling the pandemic as a union as a major project and not leave all member states to each look after their own.

It was brave move as the EU has no competence in Public Health, unlike animal health or food. It moved to control the acquisition of vaccines and distribute the doses on a population basis, and negotiate the best cost per dose. As it turns out, many suppliers agreed to supply at cost during the pandemic, and provision should have trumped cost, but that is hindsight.

Their caution in placing orders was due to none of the candidate vaccines passing the phase three tests and it would be incautious to place orders on unproven vaccines. That was partly because public health was outside their experience, and the EMA had just moved to Paris from London and many experienced staff did not move with the agency.

In a years time, the vaccines will be rolled out and either be effective or not, but Brexit will still be raging and new gotchas will be discovered causing unexpected problems. The EU will be tackling all the new problems it faces in the world and the UK will not even feature.

I think Covid is masking some of the unexpected as you say.

For example Scotland gets a lot of fishing tourism between May and October. Will other destinations be easier for people in the EU to travel to?

johnnyskeleton

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I note a lot of reports via Twitter about a British Chambers of Commerce survey of nearly 470 businesses that export from the UK, half of them are facing difficulties in terms of increased costs due mainly from increased paperwork challenges along with extra border checks.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/feb/11/half-of-uk-exporters-to-eu-are-having-brexit-difficulties-survey-finds

I also see it being reported that the UK's ranking within Germany's trading partners has dropped one place (presumably despite the efforts of the German car manufacturers)...
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1359644244848373763

Continuing the trend of what Brexiteers say usually being more readily applied to the EU, the Eastern European countries have been growing in the last decade to the point where they are now a lucrative market for the sort of exports that the more developed Western European countries produce, such as cars and financial services.

So its important to be able to trade freely with growing markets such as Eastern Europe, and not to be shackled to already developed, low growth trading partners like the UK

johnnyskeleton

ambro25 wrote: »

So, er, back on planet earth...would you also say that someone should check whether that extra kilo in the consignment actually is extra Dutch plants/bulbs, rather than Columbia's finest recreational aid, or composition 4 blocks, or ...?.

Or even more mundanely, if a 3kg declared package weights 4kg, thats a 25% under declaration (or 33% extra unvouched import weight). And if that is on one package, if there are 10,000 packages each day like this then that is 10,000kg.

They cant weigh every package so the way that they incentivise people correctly declaring something (and hence paying the appropriate tax) is by people knowing that if they under declare their goods they risk them not getting through customs. This is necessary to incentivise compliance and honest declarations.

breezy1985

Lemming wrote: »

I'm not sure how much of this can be laid at the door of the education system (or at least not as an origin point); I mean looking back at my own primary/secondary education through the 1980s and 1990s in Dublin, any real notions of awareness came from teachers discussing current events as an aside outside of planned curriculums.

I'd be looking more at a pliant media than the education system; to pull the education system apart you would first have to get into power and do that you need to get your name spread across the tv/radio/papers of the day.

It probably sounds like a little thing but some UK media include the Republic in the weather reports but these little things all add up and give English people a distorted view of their country.

History class in England is Henry 8, WW2 and the English civil war. No mention of any downside to colonialism

reslfj

Sam Russell wrote: »

The EU action on gathering the EU states to act in unison was a brave and ground breaking move to make tackling the pandemic as a union as a major project and not leave all member states to each look after their own.
...

It was brave move as the EU has no competence in Public Health, That was partly because public health was outside their experience, and the EMA had just moved to Paris from London ...

The EU has indeed not the competence on health except for approval of medicine to be traded within the SM, where the EMA has much better recourses for checking the working and safety of new medicines.
Often such checks are done or partly done by medicine/health authorities in one or a few member states for the EMA.

The decision to do a full authorisation of the vaccines and not just an emergency approval, has much support within EU27.
Vaccines is medicine into very many healthy people - most of the population - and extra safety should be observed.


PS! The EMA is now in Amsterdam

Lars

dogbert27

reslfj wrote: »

The EU has indeed not the competence on health except for approval of medicine to be traded within the SM, where the EMA has much better recourses for checking the working and safety of new medicines.
Often such checks are done or partly done by medicine/health authorities in one or a few member states for the EMA.

The decision to do a full authorisation of the vaccines and not just an emergency approval, has much support within EU27.
Vaccines is medicine into very many healthy people - most of the population - and extra safety should be observed.


PS! The EMA is now in Amsterdam

Lars

Beating Dublin and Helsinki to the prize as it had to leave London.

Something about a better quality of life in Amsterdam according to the staff. I wonder what they could be referring to? :pac:

Sam Russell

reslfj wrote: »

PS! The EMA is now in Amsterdam

Lars

It was the European Banking Authority that went to Paris, not the EMA. Confusion in all this Brexit stuff.

The EMA should have come to Dublin as we have something like 24 out of the 25 biggest pharma companies have a presence here.

RobMc59

ambro25 wrote: »

Yeah?

So, er, back on planet earth...would you also say that someone should check whether that extra kilo in the consignment actually is extra Dutch plants/bulbs, rather than Columbia's finest recreational aid, or composition 4 blocks, or ...?

An appeal to 'common sense' tends to be the recourse of those incapable of understanding and following rules, when caught out. In context, common sense would rather be, to weigh the consignment before entering its weight in the paperwork, and to enter it correctly.

Don't worry, though: any exporters long-used to wink-and-a-nod paperwork are currently learning very fast. The learning curve is that steep, it's gone inverted.

Perhaps someone should tell the Taoiseach about all this as he seems unaware...
I've attached a link in which he believes all parties need to dial down the rhetoric. His opinion regarding a vote on a UI doesn't make good reading for any republicans either..

"Brexit: Micheál Martin calls on 'big beasts' of EU to 'cool it' - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-56026320

Strazdas

RobMc59 wrote: »

Perhaps someone should tell the Taoiseach about all this as he seems unaware...
I've attached a link in which he believes all parties need to dial down the rhetoric. His opinion regarding a vote on a UI doesn't make good reading for any republicans either..

"Brexit: Micheál Martin calls on 'big beasts' of EU to 'cool it' - BBC News" https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-56026320

I think his point on an UI referendum is that it would be pointless to hold it if the polling was 50-50 (way too divisive).

But it's anyone's guess what the mood on the island of Ireland would be in 4-5 years' time. It's hard to put a timeframe on when would be be a good time to hold a referendum, you couldn't rule anything in or out. Scotland leaving the UK would obviously be a huge gamechanger (much more so than if it had happened in 2014).

Leroy42

Where does he say that the rules should be changed to give the UK an advantage? Where does he say that he thinks it perfectly reasonable that we have to abide by rules and standards but the UK should just be able to make it up as they go along?

Why are you not raising questions about why the UK is not ready? Why the insistence to not extend the transition period, apparently because business needs certainty, only to give them a week to prepare for the thing they claimed would never happen?

You say that you are against Brexit, yet your solutions to any issue is that the EU must do something to resolve the obvious issues that were always going to arise.

yagan

Strazdas wrote: »

I think his point on an UI referendum is that it would be pointless to hold it if the polling was 50-50 (way too divisive).

But it's anyone's guess what the mood on the island of Ireland would be in 4-5 years' time. It's hard to put a timeframe on when would be be a good time to hold a referendum, you couldn't rule anything in or out. Scotland leaving the UK would obviously be a huge gamechanger (much more so than if it had happened in 2014).

As the leader of a so called republican party he should never rule out a UI at any time, it may happen this year if food shortages and mass unemployment in England kicks off general mayhem. But even as an Irish political leader he shouldn't even be dismissing what's not even his to call.

There was a piece in yesterdays Irish Times about a English guy who moved to Donegal from Manchester and as a blowin I thought his perspective spot when he said everyone over 45 votes FF, but everyone under 45 votes SF.

FF are already written off by whole generations, they're irrelevant, but Martin's personal legacy won't be anything to do with NI, he's be remembered for the "meaningful christmas".

Seth Brundle

yagan wrote: »

As the leader of a so called republican party he should never rule out a UI at any time, it may happen this year if food shortages and mass unemployment in England kicks off general mayhem. But even as an Irish political leader he shouldn't even be dismissing what's not even his to call.

There was a piece in yesterdays Irish Times about a English guy who moved to Donegal from Manchester and as a blowin I thought his perspective spot when he said everyone over 45 votes FF, but everyone under 45 votes SF.

FF are already written off by whole generations, they're irrelevant, but Martin's personal legacy won't be anything to do with NI, he's be remembered for the "meaningful christmas".

In fairness there's a difference between calling for a UI which is not wanted by a significan portion of the citizens of that jurisdiction compared to a call for a UI which is endorsed by a large majority.
I'm no fan of MM but he is right to avoid a call for a UI just for the sake of it - if only SF would shut up about it until NI is ready for it.
Anyhow, let's try and avooid derailing this thread - there's a NI thread already

yagan

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness there's a difference between calling for a UI which is not wanted by a significan portion of the citizens of that jurisdiction compared to a call for a UI which is endorsed by a large majority.
I'm no fan of MM but he is right to avoid a call for a UI just for the sake of it - if only SF would shut up about it until NI is ready for it.
Anyhow, let's try and avooid derailing this thread - there's a NI thread already

A border vote is not his call so he shouldn't even dismiss it.

It's two fingers to everyone in Northern Ireland.

Dymo

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness there's a difference between calling for a UI which is not wanted by a significan portion of the citizens of that jurisdiction compared to a call for a UI which is endorsed by a large majority.
I'm no fan of MM but he is right to avoid a call for a UI just for the sake of it - if only SF would shut up about it until NI is ready for it.
Anyhow, let's try and avooid derailing this thread - there's a NI thread already

Agreed, I'd love for a united Ireland now, but I don't think we're ready for it, a 49/51 split would cause murder it would want to be a large majority to be a smooth transition.

redcup342

Dymo wrote: »

Agreed, I'd love for a united Ireland now, but I don't think we're ready for it, a 49/51 split would cause murder it would want to be a large majority to be a smooth transition.

Yep, considering the state of the economy and how many people are in the Public Service it would be a costly transition.

schmoo2k

Akrasia wrote: »

Yes we know, it was brainless and stupid and she didn't actually do it in the end

What do you mean by ignore? She agreed with them, there was a cock up but ultimately the right decision was made.
Should she have stayed in the EUParl chamber to listen to the Irish MEPs badger her? Maybe, maybe it makes no actual difference as the MEPs still got to read their questions into the record

The EU approves vaccines through the EMA
The WHO do not approve medications, they are not a regulatory authority

How exactly is it an embarrassment for the EU that the EMA made a decision based on their assessment of the data submitted to them? Are you suggesting that the EU should be politically interfering in the decisions made by the EMA? This would be a much much bigger scandal with very serious consequences

The EMA didn't even make any decision on ages, just commented on the lack of data for older folks. Individual countries made their own choices on which age groups should get which vaccines (because they can).

Strazdas

Dymo wrote: »

Agreed, I'd love for a united Ireland now, but I don't think we're ready for it, a 49/51 split would cause murder it would want to be a large majority to be a smooth transition.

Also, the future Irish state would have to be planned (the very thing that never happened with Brexit, giving us the current disaster / shambles). This on its own would take several years of planning and strategy....how the future government and parliament would operate, the economy, the new civil service, the new police force etc.

BonnieSituation

Seth Brundle wrote: »

In fairness there's a difference between calling for a UI which is not wanted by a significan portion of the citizens of that jurisdiction compared to a call for a UI which is endorsed by a large majority.
I'm no fan of MM but he is right to avoid a call for a UI just for the sake of it - if only SF would shut up about it until NI is ready for it.
Anyhow, let's try and avooid derailing this thread - there's a NI thread already

When will we ever be ready for it?

I love how it's ALWAYS never the right time, but if anything, the ingoing hoo-ha about the NIP shows that the only real solutions available are:

1. a UI

2. Ireland leaving the SM and CU

3. the UK re-joining the SM and CU

It's the same old charge from Partitionists.

As Yagan states, MM is as irrelevant to calling for a poll. FF will be a non-entity come the next election never mind the

yagan wrote: »

A border vote is not his call so he shouldn't even dismiss it.

It's two fingers to everyone in Northern Ireland.

That's FF for you.

yagan

A united Ireland could happen not because of our consent or public will, but because the UK could simply fall apart and orphan NI. What banner can unionists gather under when their union demerges? No one ever asks what happened the soviets outside Russia.

20silkcut

yagan wrote: »

A united Ireland could happen not because of our consent or public will, but because the UK could simply fall apart and orphan NI. What banner can unionists gather under when their union demerges? No one ever asks what happened the soviets outside Russia.

They have an enclave in Moldova called Transnistria. Have all the Soviet paraphernalia , uniforms, pictures of Stalin and Lenin on public buildings and on the streets etc.

Seth Brundle

mod: let's keep any further discussion about a united Ireland to the NI thread

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

The EU action on gathering the EU states to act in unison was a brave and ground breaking move to make tackling the pandemic as a union as a major project and not leave all member states to each look after their own.

It was brave move as the EU has no competence in Public Health, unlike animal health or food. It moved to control the acquisition of vaccines and distribute the doses on a population basis, and negotiate the best cost per dose. As it turns out, many suppliers agreed to supply at cost during the pandemic, and provision should have trumped cost, but that is hindsight.

Their caution in placing orders was due to none of the candidate vaccines passing the phase three tests and it would be incautious to place orders on unproven vaccines. That was partly because public health was outside their experience, and the EMA had just moved to Paris from London and many experienced staff did not move with the agency.

In a years time, the vaccines will be rolled out and either be effective or not, but Brexit will still be raging and new gotchas will be discovered causing unexpected problems. The EU will be tackling all the new problems it faces in the world and the UK will not even feature.

Something I heard today Sam,my sister who lives in Spain(has done for 25 years)hasn't visited England since 2019.She phoned her doctor asking when vaccines will be rolled out.The doctor told her we don't know when we'll get any vaccines let alone start rolling them out.
The only issue here with vaccines in the UK is whether you do or don't want it.

Sam Russell

RobMc59 wrote: »

Something I heard today Sam,my sister who lives in Spain(has done for 25 years)hasn't visited England since 2019.She phoned her doctor asking when vaccines will be rolled out.The doctor told her we don't know when we'll get any vaccines let alone start rolling them out.
The only issue here with vaccines in the UK is whether you do or don't want it.

What has that got to with Brexit?

The vaccine rollout in Spain is a matter for Spain, and health is a devolved matter for the regional Gov in Spain. There is a 'difference of opinion' between central Gov and some regions.

Approximately a quarter million doses have been administered in Ireland. Nursing homes and frontline workers first, over 85s next week.

RobMc59

Sam Russell wrote: »

What has that got to with Brexit?

The vaccine rollout in Spain is a matter for Spain, and health is a devolved matter for the regional Gov in Spain. There is a 'difference of opinion' between central Gov and some regions.

Approximately a quarter million doses have been administered in Ireland. Nursing homes and frontline workers first, over 85s next week.

I was commenting on your post in which you mentioned the EU's unified approach to vaccine procurement being a success.

Enzokk

Sam Russell wrote: »

What has that got to with Brexit?

The vaccine rollout in Spain is a matter for Spain, and health is a devolved matter for the regional Gov in Spain. There is a 'difference of opinion' between central Gov and some regions.

Approximately a quarter million doses have been administered in Ireland. Nursing homes and frontline workers first, over 85s next week.

It's all they have in the UK at the moment. They have article 16 and Covid vaccinations so Rob will milk that as long as he can. Because this shows that UK GOOD and EU is BAD! If he looks too much at Brexit and its implications he cannot keep ignoring it even if his life has not been disrupted that much, yet.