Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

eire4

20silkcut wrote: »

They made us pay for that land long after we got independence.
Up until the late 1930’s.

They certainly did until I think the settlement that brought the economic war to an end in 1938.

CelticRambler

It could be argued that if, by mid-February 2021, we've nothing better to talk about than ancient Irish history and the finer points of mass vaccination strategies, then Brexit is well and truly done. One could even call it a success ... of sorts! :pac:

Sam Russell

CelticRambler wrote: »

It could be argued that if, by mid-February 2021, we've nothing better to talk about than ancient Irish history and the finer points of mass vaccination strategies, then Brexit is well and truly done. One could even call it a success ... of sorts! :pac:

Your right.

Gove wrote a stiff letter about the NI Protocol to the EU demanding a resolution within 48 hrs. The EU replied saying they will arrange a meeting next week or maybe the week after, and by the way, implement the protocol as agreed.

Meanwhile UK companies complain about paperwork, and delays at customs posts. The UK offer advice to those businesses to move to the EU to solve their problems.

Brexit is flying it.

eire4

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Think you will find the partition of Northern Ireland was agreed between the British Government and representatives of the Irish Republic as part of the 1921 Anglo Irish Treaty and was voted through the Dail. It was a creation of both parties. The civil war was caused by people who refused to accept a democratic decision.

Brexit was voted for in a referendum, if you don't like it fine, absolutely highlight the problems it causes but it's called democracy. The government merely asked a question and the people voted one way.

There were atrocities on all sides in the War of Independence and while I believe Collins was a pragmatist and felt the end justified the extreme means and it is highly likely it would have taken much longer to get the British to peacefully negotiate an independent Ireland a legitimate question is always to ask was the level of bloodshed required and were there other options.

I think you will find the treaty and partition was forced on us not agreed at the risk of "terrible and immediate war" by Lloyd George. It was indeed voted through the Dail as Michael Collins knew the IRA was stretched to breaking point and had no chance in an all out war.

You bring democracy up in regard to the civil war. Yet conveniently do not mention that none of the above would have happened if the British had of respected the democratic will of the Irish people who by a large majority voted for independence in 1918. Sinn Fein and the IPP won almost 70% of the vote the unionist just 25% with the vast majority of the Irish vote for Sinn Fein. That resulted in 73 seats for Sinn Fein just 22 for the Unionists and 6 for the IPP. So stop with the sudden respect for the democratic will of the people.


Yes brexit was voted for in an election. I accept that fact. I believe the people in Britain were lied to but I accept that was the result and as such they are no longer part of the EU due to their own decision.

Finally it is the ahh sure they are all as bad as each other nonsense. Those British lads were no worse then our own lads. Risible false equivalency.

ujjjjjjjjj

Sam Russell wrote: »

I will not draw the thread off topic, but the Government of Ireland became law on 23rd Dec 1920, predating the treaty.

Brexit was as democratic as the FPTP voting system. The Leave campaign was based on lies and illegal funding.

Yes agreed but that was a home rule act where Southern and Northern Ireland simply had different administrations but still part of the United Kingdom of Britain and Ireland. In other words regional administrations but within one country with control over defined issues but national issues at national government level. We see this all the time in local and devolved government.

The partition of Ireland which most people would commonly understand as the North being left as part of the UK and the South becoming the Irish Free state and onto a full Republic was enshrined and agreed as part of the 1921 Treaty agreed by both parties. The decision to accept the partition of Ireland was and leave the North as part of the UK was ultimately political compromise but both parties compromised. Not saying I like it but there were two sides involved.

The cause of the civil war in Ireland was The Treaty of 21 and the refusal of 32 County Republicans not willing to compromise and who went against a democratic vote. Again I fully understand the desire for a 32.county Republic but there was a democratic process which accepted the Treaty and Partition.

To write off the Brexit Vote as lies and illegal funding is literally disrespecting the entire UK population who voted for Brexit. It was a simple and back and white referendum that passed and it had to be enacted to honour that democratic process. Of course in time the UK may have another referendum and vote to rejoin the EU and like this referendum it should be honoured if it ever happens.

Democracy is not always something that gives the best or the right or the fairest results, you may not like the outcome and like Brexit some people who vote one way vote for other reasons. Maybe I am just an old fashioned democrat but if you have a referendum and the people vote one way you must honour it or you disrespect the people and the entire concept of democracy.

I fully understand the damage Brexit has done in so many quarters and I fully understand it is far from an ideal result for Ireland in particular but we have to accept it and make the best out of it. By not embracing it actually just shoots ourselves in the foot due to the close cultural and physical ties between the UK and Ireland and the fact that we have a market on our doorstep that is easily served by Irish farmers etc. The CTA is a fantastic agreement between Ireland and the UK and I personally was delighted when both the UK and Ireland made it absolutely clear it was being honoured and would continue. Many Irish people choose and have chosen to live in the UK and that at least is an option that remains and we in return welcome British people who want to live in Ireland.

It is so easy to mock, laugh and pour scorn on the UK and Brexit but it gets us as a people nowhere and just makes for good pub conversation. Personally I would prefer to make the best of it and try to build bridges and move on. We have had 30 years of trouble up North, so many families have suffered so much and the peace is a fragile thing. Ireland is in a unique position to become a peacemaker between the EU and the UK and it is something that can only benefit Ireland.

eire4

Sam Russell wrote: »

Your right.

Gove wrote a stiff letter about the NI Protocol to the EU demanding a resolution within 48 hrs. The EU replied saying they will arrange a meeting next week or maybe the week after, and by the way, implement the protocol as agreed.

Meanwhile UK companies complain about paperwork, and delays at customs posts. The UK offer advice to those businesses to move to the EU to solve their problems.

Brexit is flying it.

Yes now that brexit is not just done but in effect it would seem all the ill will the British have sown with their behaviour our the past few years is certainly not going to encourage the EU to be all warm and friendly in their responses.

BonnieSituation

eire4 wrote: »

Yes now that brexit is not just done but in effect it would seem all the ill will the British have sown with their behaviour our the past few years is certainly not going to encourage the EU to be all warm and friendly in their responses.

Hopefully not. I mean, the dismissal of Gove's letter gives me hope.

I haven't heard much about vaccines the last few days either.

Are they bored of that now? Or are the risible second vaccine numbers not worthy of discussion?

Capt'n Midnight

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Brexit was voted for in a referendum, if you don't like it fine, absolutely highlight the problems it causes but it's called democracy. The government merely asked a question and the people voted one way.

The govt asked a vague non-binding question.

Had it been binding then the referendum would have subject to legal sanctions. Even if it was binding it could be overturned by Parliament in the morning. Even if it couldn't be overturned then the govt could have asked the people what type of Brexit they actually wanted seeing as how it was sold as if there was no downside.


Instead they insisted that it was the irrevocable will of the people and refused to clarify what kind of Brexit it would be.

For years it was all things to all men, and all kinds of everything for Northern Ireland. "Brexit is Brexit" "red white and blue" was as defined as it got until very recently.

ujjjjjjjjj

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

The govt asked a vague non-binding question.

Had it been binding then the referendum would have subject to legal sanctions. Even if it was binding it could be overturned by Parliament in the morning. Even if it couldn't be overturned then the govt could have asked the people what type of Brexit they actually wanted seeing as how it was sold as if there was no downside.


Instead they insisted that it was the irrevocable will of the people and refused to clarify what kind of Brexit it would be.

For years it was all things to all men, and all kinds of everything for Northern Ireland. "Brexit is Brexit" "red white and blue" was as defined as it got until very recently.

Look I get what you are saying. I get the fact that Brexit is a pain for Ireland. I get that a huge majority of Irish people didn't want Brexit. I get the issues it causes and the problems it has caused Ireland in particular.

But it's done now and I think we would all be better off trying to make the best of it rather than picking endless holes in something which we can't change and isn't going anywhere.

How can we take advantage of Brexit ? Any ideas ?

listermint

And they say people equating brexit to the early days of facism is mad....


https://twitter.com/gavinsblog/status/1360729072846921731?s=20

BonnieSituation

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Look I get what you are saying. I get the fact that Brexit is a pain for Ireland. I get that a huge majority of Irish people didn't want Brexit. I get the issues it causes and the problems it has caused Ireland in particular.

But it's done now and I think we would all be better off trying to make the best of it rather than picking endless holes in something which we can't change and isn't going anywhere.

How can we take advantage of Brexit ? Any ideas ?

So you agree with the Capt'n's assertions wrt the referendum and how it was conducted and the subsequent omnishsmbles that it caused?

ujjjjjjjjj

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So you agree with the Capt'n's assertions wrt the referendum and how it was conducted and the subsequent omnishsmbles that it caused?

No, it was a clear question asked to the British people, they voted one way and to honour it Britain had to leave the EU which it now has done. Just because we don't like the result of a referendum in a different country I don't believe gives us the right to question the result.

Capt'n Midnight

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

To write off the Brexit Vote as lies and illegal funding is literally disrespecting the entire UK population who voted for Brexit. It was a simple and back and white referendum that passed and it had to be enacted to honour that democratic process.

15,188,406 out of 65.38m is 23% of the UK population.

Demographics alone mean that if no one changed their vote then Remain would win now simply because of the number of Triple Lock pensioners who died since, and that's not counting Covid.

On that basis alone the govt have railroaded their special kind of Brexit through against the will of the surviving population.

BonnieSituation

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

No, it was a clear question asked to the British people, they voted one way and to honour it Britain had to leave the EU which it now has done. Just because we don't like the result of a referendum in a different country I don't believe gives us the right to question the result.

Grand. I think I'll leave you there so.

CelticRambler

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

How can we take advantage of Brexit ? Any ideas ?

If, by "we", you mean Ireland/the Irish, then the best way to take advantage of Brexit is to fill every possible gap in the Single Market (commercial, educational, cultural ... ) left by the British.

But by the logic of all your earlier posts, that would risk being seen as kicking them when they're down - hardly the best qualification for being "peacemakers" as you put it.

Professor Moriarty

CelticRambler wrote: »

If, by "we", you mean Ireland/the Irish, then the best way to take advantage of Brexit is to fill every possible gap in the Single Market (commercial, educational, cultural ... ) left by the British.

But by the logic of all your earlier posts, that would risk being seen as kicking them when they're down - hardly the best qualification for being "peacemakers" as you put it.

Very good point. Ireland needs to ride two horses with the one arse.

Capt'n Midnight

Truck volumes are back to normal on the UK - France routes.

But, and there's always a but with Brexit,

Although there is no formal count of empty lorries, a variety of ferry company, French, and UK official data suggest the proportion of empty lorries going back to the EU at around 50%.

French sources suggested Eurotunnel, which tends to transfer higher-value loads, was seeing 50-60% empty loads.

Industry sources said the existence of such empty lorries was not new, but that this was normally at 25-30%.

So for every 4 trucks of imports there used to be 3 trucks of exports.
Now it's only 2 trucks of exports.

This 2:3 ratio matches the previously reported figure of UK exports being 68% by volume of what they used to be.


Of course the UK won't be doing full import checks from the EU until July.

ujjjjjjjjj

CelticRambler wrote: »

If, by "we", you mean Ireland/the Irish, then the best way to take advantage of Brexit is to fill every possible gap in the Single Market (commercial, educational, cultural ... ) left by the British.

But by the logic of all your earlier posts, that would risk being seen as kicking them when they're down - hardly the best qualification for being "peacemakers" as you put it.

Yes absolutely we have opportunities in the EU and it only makes sense to maximise these. I don't think the British would have any issue with this and they know Ireland is strongly pro EU.

Can we also maintain close business, farming, cultural and tourism links with the UK, yes absolutely. Can we be the big man and embrace Britain and also embrace the EU, I believe yes we can and it will benefit Ireland. We share a border, a fragile peace and the CTA and our countries are intertwined in so many ways. Irish businesses sell to the UK and the UK is a huge market.

Look I get every single bit of animosity towards Brexit in Irish people but it is done now. It is fun mocking Brexit and Britain, jeepers we all do it all the time but sometimes just sometimes it pays to be the peacemaker especially when you are a small country.......

Strazdas

listermint wrote: »

And they say people equating brexit to the early days of facism is mad....


https://twitter.com/gavinsblog/status/1360729072846921731?s=20

I think it has much more in common with Trumpism. The Brexit Govt trying to divide the nation and create a deeply polarised society, with the belief that this will keep them in power.

Hitler was more about trying to unify the nation behind a single racist and hateful ideology.

ujjjjjjjjj

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Grand. I think I'll leave you there so.

“Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?”

I think that was the question on the ballot paper which was put in front of people.

I can't see any issue with it. If the answer had been to remain we would have all forgotten about it and respected it.

People are adults and make their minds up, it's called personal responsibility and everything else I am afraid is just noise be it dirty campaign tricks, stupid promises or agendas. Every election, referendum etc has misinformation, nonsense, agendas, rubbish talked and given.

While we don't like the result and it does not suit Ireland I don't believe we have the right to question the result just like I don't think it is right for British people or French people or Belgians to question democratic votes in Ireland.

So we either respect that Brexit is a reality and try to take advantage or minimise damage as best we can or ostracise the UK as we are pi**ed with them.

With the unavoidable issues with our shared border and close trade and cultural links I think the former makes most sense.

View

cameramonkey wrote: »

So the point you are making is we could have a UI under UK rule, look where that got us. An absolute disaster for the Irish people. Genocide, famine, murder and mayhem perpetrated by the UK. If we had stayed in the UK we would be a bit like the six counties now probably, a disaster failed statelet.

If you want to deny that the current political situation on this island isn’t a direct consequence of the decisions to opt for independence, rather than unity, feel free to delude yourself.

That won’t alter the reality that was created on the island by one iota. Nor will dragging long dead history into it since the argument about what would happen on this island was settled upon over a hundred years ago.

We get to live with the consequences of the decisions made in pursuit of the “bonkers” idea of a hundred years ago, not relive the decision making moments of a hundred years ago.

listermint

Batrachotox wrote: »

Wouldn’t exactly call that fascism now tbh...that’s setting the bar pretty low - I don’t recall Mussolini (or Hitler for that matter) doing anything similar? Surely they were proponents of more censorship if anything?

I think you might find it's about the right kind of speech. Rather than just caring about everyone it's specifically targeted to care about a specific set of people's feelings. People who already sit at the top of the pile.

It's actually not even that subtle if your bothered to look.

Hitler shut down publications at the time because of wrong type of free thought. You may remember the burning of books .

listermint

listermint wrote: »

I think you might find it's about the right kind of speech. Rather than just caring about everyone it's specifically targeted to care about a specific set of people's feelings. People who already sit at the top of the pile.

It's actually not even that subtle if your bothered to look.

Hitler shut down publications at the time because of wrong type of free thought. You may remember the burning of books .

It’s a bit ironic that you’d say that seen as many people would view cancel culture as policing people over what is considered the “right” kind of speech and censoring anyone who doesn’t conform to that ala the fascistic book burnings you have mentioned.

I think you’re reaching a bit here just to get the word “fascist” in tbh. I can’t stand the Tories but honestly this sounds like it’s the opposite of book burnings, it’s promoting free speech.

correct horse battery staple

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Mussolini about 100 years ago was already on a full anti left crusade, while anti cancel crusade is an attack on a lefty straw man these days.

There’s a good podcast on rise of Mussolini, I don’t want to depart from thread further however

But yes Tories and Brexit are a wedge in a lurch to the more fascistic right, there are way too many similarities to ignore for anyone familiar with history

Mussolini’s anti left crusade involved silencing and attacking left wing opponents, intimidating and disrupting communist gatherings etc

I don’t at all disagree that the Tories and Brexit are a lurch to the right.

I disagree that promoting free speech and opposing censorship is fascism - that’s what I’m saying. Mussolini and the fascists were not proponents of free speech, thought, and a free press. They demonstrably weren’t. It’s simply ahistorical to conflate promotion of that with the Fascists, who were highly censorious.

CelticRambler

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

But hey let’s all talk about a crusade against cancel culture straw man and/or vaccinations.

You have to give it to Tories they and their media buddies are experts at deflecting public narrative at a time the economy is imploding under twin knocks punches of Covid and Brexit

What about the tax-payer funded photos of Johnson's dog? I'm still wondering what that's meant to cover up; I suspect it's a move to distract from something to do with pet passports, either to head off protests from dog-owning Brits who can't so easily take them on holidays now; or to hide a U-turn on permanent alignment with the EU in respect of SPS.

fash

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

I really can't see where you are coming from. The question is clear, simple and straight to the point. Either leave the EU or Remain. If the vote had gone to remain I can't imagine many Irish people questioning anything about the referendum.

I really don't believe you can't understand where I'm coming from.
"Do you want to be shot in the knee, yes or no?" "Do you want to stay inside (this afternoon) or not? " are equally clear, simple and straight to the point.

The issue is that prior to a referendum on these questions , the positions"I don't want to be shot in the knees" and "I don't want to stay inside"
can be promoted by very disparate groups who.
"We should vote for "I don't want to stay inside"- because we should meet up with our friends in the pub instead" and "we should vote for I don't want to stay inside so we can instead go on a round the world trip/invade Poland/go to a concert/go to the garden"
However these outcomes are mutually exclusive - and if the choice in advance had been "stay inside or go on a one way trip to mars" then a referendum won 51.9% to 48.1% on the basis of "stay inside or go outside" would have lost massively. Don't pretend that it wouldn't - don't pretend you don't understand the problem with this.

People made a choice and it is called democracy. Why can't we just accept it and now that it has happened look at ways to move on ?

I'm happy to move on - but as part of that moving on, I want some honesty in observers of this - those of us on the outside don't need to believe the silly nonsense the UK tells itself. I also would like to see the UK broken up - for the good of everyone. That's our next goal.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Stick to current events please. We don't need to rehash the 2016 referendum campaign again. Ditto for 1930's fascism. I've removed some posts.

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: Stick to current events please. We don't need to rehash the 2016 referendum campaign again. Ditto for 1930's fascism. I've removed some posts.

Post deleted and sanction issued. No more trolling please.

CelticRambler

correct horse battery staple wrote: »

Getting back to present here is another daft idea today
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/02/13/boris-burrow-tunnel-northern-ireland-set-get-green-light/

Seriously??? Are we back to this nonsense again? The Tories must be starting to panic. :pac:

So much deliberate obfuscation in that article, not least the "same length as the tunnel under the Channel" and saying it'd come out in Sammy Wilson's constituency. When this idea was first ... floated? :rolleyes: ... I read a discussion by a bunch of engineers who concluded that, as the tunnel would have to be at three times the depth of that in the Channel, the entrance would need to be somewhere around Clontarf!

But hey, who's going to notice another few billion chucked at Tory donors for the purposes of carrying out a feasibility study, and Johnson can add a tunnel to the bridge and runway of projects he's failed to deliver.

Akrasia

ujjjjjjjjj wrote: »

Democracy is not always something that gives the best or the right or the fairest results, you may not like the outcome and like Brexit some people who vote one way vote for other reasons. Maybe I am just an old fashioned democrat but if you have a referendum and the people vote one way you must honour it or you disrespect the people and the entire concept of democracy. .

The UK courts found that the official vote leave campaign seriously violated election laws and the only reason the results weren’t overturned by the courts were because the referendum was ‘advisory’ and the decision to implement Brexit was a political one, not a legal mandate from the referendum result
How much cheating can one side do for you to still consider the process Democratic?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/electoral-commission-misinterpreted-law-vote-leave-high-court


In a real democracy, election rules are implemented and enforced. Bodies like our referendum commission’ are established to mediate the debate and ensure that the facts can be established by the public rather than forcing them to wade through a sea of propaganda that they are not equipped to assess

The Brexit referendum was a travesty in so many ways