Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

20silkcut wrote: »

And many truckers and regular users much rather the ferry than the tunnel. With all the queuing it is not much different in terms of time saved to the ferry and that was before brexit.
And the train is supposed to be pretty grimy as well not a pleasant experience.

Don't know where you're getting your information from, but as a regular-ish user of the Tunnel, I can confirm first-hand that it is considerably faster than the ferry (about two hours faster, if you time things right) and the on-board experience is only as grimy as the vehicle you're spending the rest of the journey in (other than freight drivers, who have to leave their cab).

fash

20silkcut wrote: »

I can’t fathom ( pardon the pun) the utter stupidity of dumping tons of ammunition in the sea in a narrow busy channel between two countries.

I assume it allowed them to be reasonably confident no one was coming to steal them - and if anyone did, they'd run a big risk before they got to open sea.

breezy1985

Alun wrote: »

You can fly to Dublin but not Holyhead or Fishguard?

Ah I thought it was about freight and given that we were talking about a road tunnel I don't see why flying should factor in

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/14/rail-bosses-revive-plan-to-build-tunnel-from-scotland-to-northern-ireland

Ah now the plan will also include a High Speed Rail link back to Carlisle.

That's longer than Dublin - Belfast.

A suitable route could be established by reinstating the dismantled line between Stranraer and Dumfries, - now look at the map. That's not a high speed route, the squiggles show a high speed line won't be cheap, quick or easy. Or look up how many mountains there are on the route.


And we are right back at how could this be commercially viable vs a ferry given the amount of traffic on the route ?

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/14/rail-bosses-revive-plan-to-build-tunnel-from-scotland-to-northern-ireland

Ah now the plan will also include a High Speed Rail link back to Carlisle.

That's longer than Dublin - Belfast.

A suitable route could be established by reinstating the dismantled line between Stranraer and Dumfries, - now look at the map. That's not a high speed route, the squiggles show a high speed line won't be cheap, quick or easy. Or look up how many mountains there are on the route.


And we are right back at how could this be commercially viable vs a ferry given the amount of traffic on the route ?

Not only that, the Guardian reports that they will change the gauge on the Irish side. That will go own well with Irish Rail.

CelticRambler

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

That's not a high speed route, the squiggles show a high speed line won't be cheap, quick or easy.

Ah listen - you're just not believing hard enough! :P

But weren't we promised an all-singing, all-dancing, bells-and-whistles, seamless, frictionless, AI-driven, world-class, technological solution that would make the border invisible? This seems awfully old-fashioned to me ...

But assuming the Tory-appointed consultants decide that it's worth getting the Tories to shell out for a white elephant, and the Tories presumably get the Chinese to build it at three times the initial estimate; if/when Scotland gains independence, will the English taxpayer have to continue paying for a hole in the ground that joins two EU member states and brings no benefit whatsoever to England?

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Not only that, the Guardian reports that they will change the gauge on the Irish side. That will go own well with Irish Rail.

In the fantasy world that if anything like this was ever going to happen, the gauge switch has to happen somewhere. There are already two major gauge switching borders in Europe, one between Spain & France and one between Russia and Eastern European countries. There are also many crossovers between left track running and right track running. France, Belgium, Switzerland Italy & Slovenia run on the left track and rest of Europe runs on the right, therefore Eurostar & chunnel trains don't swap sites of the track.


Rail crossovers can be many Kms away from the borders between these countries, they are usually placed where it's most convenient for signalling purposes.


No reason to see there any difference if a rail line crosses the Irish sea, the location for the gauge change will be an engineering solution, not a political one.

Jizique

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/feb/14/rail-bosses-revive-plan-to-build-tunnel-from-scotland-to-northern-ireland

Ah now the plan will also include a High Speed Rail link back to Carlisle.

That's longer than Dublin - Belfast.

A suitable route could be established by reinstating the dismantled line between Stranraer and Dumfries, - now look at the map. That's not a high speed route, the squiggles show a high speed line won't be cheap, quick or easy. Or look up how many mountains there are on the route.


And we are right back at how could this be commercially viable vs a ferry given the amount of traffic on the route ?

They have money coming from all orifices now they aren’t spending £350m a week on the EU (and don’t seem to be giving it to the NHS either)

BonnieSituation

Deleted User wrote: »

In the fantasy world that if anything like this was ever going to happen, the gauge switch has to happen somewhere. There are already two major gauge switching borders in Europe, one between Spain & France and one between Russia and Eastern European countries. There are also many crossovers between left track running and right track running. France, Belgium, Switzerland Italy & Slovenia run on the left track and rest of Europe runs on the right, therefore Eurostar & chunnel trains don't swap sites of the track.


Rail crossovers can be many Kms away from the borders between these countries, they are usually placed where it's most convenient for signalling purposes.


No reason to see there any difference if a rail line crosses the Irish sea, the location for the gauge change will be an engineering solution, not a political one.

You know that. I know that, but you also know that it will be made political.

Northern Ireland will run on great british imperial rails and not that lousy potato munching Irish gauge!

Sure this whole nonsense story is a lesson in political bolloxology. I can't believe they got a whole day from it.

pixelburp

Notwithstanding the likelihood this is all just a scam to get some Tory donors or Oxbridge pals some cosy consultancy contracts ... who's this seriously for? As grand gestures go, there surely must be easier and cheaper ways to present a seamless front between the UK nations than a tunnel through a poisonous sea trench? The endpoint being a region many mainlanders would be shot of in the morning. And presumably while all this happening, various investment groups and councils outside of London are gnashing their teeth that sensible money isn't going to <insert moribund UK region here>.

ancapailldorcha

Has there been any sort of confirmation or is all this just talk? It took them nearly a decade just to make the obvious decision that Heathrow needed another runway. They've not done any construction at all so why are they on about a tunnel?

BonnieSituation

pixelburp wrote: »

Notwithstanding the likelihood this is all just a scam to get some Tory donors or Oxbridge pals some cosy consultancy contracts ... who's this seriously for? As grand gestures go, there surely must be easier and cheaper ways to present a seamless front between the UK nations than a tunnel through a poisonous sea trench? The endpoint being a region many mainlanders would be shot of in the morning. And presumably while all this happening, various investment groups and councils outside of London are gnashing their teeth that sensible money isn't going to <insert moribund UK region here>.

I wonder if they did the CBA would it be cheaper to buy a load of cargo planes.

BonnieSituation

BonnieSituation wrote: »

You know that. I know that, but you also know that it will be made political.

Northern Ireland will run on great british imperial rails and not that lousy potato munching Irish gauge!

Sure this whole nonsense story is a lesson in political bolloxology. I can't believe they got a whole day from it.

Hilarious when you consider the railways were constructed when Ireland was part of the UK, anyway gauge was always an engineering verses financial issue. GWR used to run on 7ft, but in the end it was too expensive for the shareholders to support so were forced to use the standard 4ft 8 1/2" gauge to match with the rest of the mainline network.

Sam Russell

Deleted User wrote: »

Hilarious when you consider the railways were constructed when Ireland was part of the UK, anyway gauge was always an engineering verses financial issue. GWR used to run on 7ft, but in the end it was too expensive for the shareholders to support so were forced to use the standard 4ft 8 1/2" gauge to match with the rest of the mainline network.

Also, the Irish gauge was set as metric - 1m 60 cm. Gauges were set by act of parliament (1846). Prior to that, various gauges were used.

Capt'n Midnight

Jizique wrote: »

They have money coming from all orifices now they aren’t spending £350m a week on the EU (and don’t seem to be giving it to the NHS either)

But I saw it... on a Big Red Bus...

Capt'n Midnight

CelticRambler wrote: »

Ah listen - you're just not believing hard enough! :P

But weren't we promised an all-singing, all-dancing, bells-and-whistles, seamless, frictionless, AI-driven, world-class, technological solution that would make the border invisible?

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

For years it was all things to all men, and all kinds of everything for Northern Ireland. "Brexit is Brexit" "red white and blue" was as defined as it got until very recently.

This seems awfully old-fashioned to me ...

But assuming the Tory-appointed consultants decide that it's worth getting the Tories to shell out for a white elephant, and the Tories presumably get the Chinese to build it at three times the initial estimate; if/when Scotland gains independence, will the English taxpayer have to continue paying for a hole in the ground that joins two EU member states and brings no benefit whatsoever to England?

Boris paid three times what it cost to build the Millennium Bridge on the nearby Garden Bridge. He was even handed the plans. And you can cross there, by boat because there's isn't anything like a bridge there.

murphaph

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, the Irish gauge was set as metric - 1m 60 cm. Gauges were set by act of parliament (1846). Prior to that, various gauges were used.

That's just coincidence. The Board of Trade in London set the Irish gauge to 5'3" after competing companies along the Belfast to Dublin corridor couldn't agree on one themselves.

It's a real pity the Board of Trade didn't force Ireland to simply adopt standard gauge.

To get back on topic, this tunnel thing is more pie in the sky designed to distract from what's happening now.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, the Irish gauge was set as metric - 1m 60 cm. Gauges were set by act of parliament (1846). Prior to that, various gauges were used.

five foot three inches, metric measurements were not recognised at that time.

Seth Brundle

murphaph wrote: »

To get back on topic, this tunnel thing is more pie in the sky designed to distract from what's happening now.

Which are issues with customs. Issues which would still exist should a tunnel between GB and Ireland be completed.

Strazdas

pixelburp wrote: »

Notwithstanding the likelihood this is all just a scam to get some Tory donors or Oxbridge pals some cosy consultancy contracts ... who's this seriously for? As grand gestures go, there surely must be easier and cheaper ways to present a seamless front between the UK nations than a tunnel through a poisonous sea trench? The endpoint being a region many mainlanders would be shot of in the morning. And presumably while all this happening, various investment groups and councils outside of London are gnashing their teeth that sensible money isn't going to <insert moribund UK region here>.

Is there even that much traffic between NI and Scotland? Population of NI is less than 2m and Scotland 5m.....doesn't exactly sound like a route that would be heaving with cars and lorries every day.

RobMc59

Strazdas wrote: »

Is there even that much traffic between NI and Scotland? Population of NI is less than 2m and Scotland 5m.....doesn't exactly sound like a route that would be heaving with cars and lorries every day.

Apart from the implications of Scotland leaving the UK or a UI it would also be a potential target for terrorists.

NeuralNetwork

Quite an interesting exchange between Boris Johnson and Margaret Brennan who hosts CBS News - Face of the Nation, really slamming home the Biden administration's position on Northern Ireland:

https://twitter.com/facethenation/status/1360982308740825092?s=21

Full interview:

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/full-interview-uk-prime-minister-boris-johnson-on-face-the-nation/

Strazdas

RobMc59 wrote: »

Apart from the implications of Scotland leaving the UK or a UI it would also be a potential target for terrorists.

I can't really see how the expense could be justified. It doesn't sound like a route that would see tens of thousands of cars crossing every day.

NeuralNetwork

Strazdas wrote: »

I can't really see how the expense could be justified. It doesn't sound like a route that would see tens of thousands of cars crossing every day.

It won't be justified because it will never be built.

This is the typical Boris Johnson 'deadcatting' strategy.

When something's controversial, you throw a dramatic, shocking or sensationalist distraction onto the table - the metaphorical dead cat. This distracts everyone's attention and, ideally gives you some great publicity while you're at it. Hurrah!

He does this all the time.

Remember during the election when all he wanted to do was talk about painting cardboard cutouts of busses?

Remember his launch of 'Boris Busses' ...?

He's even walked out with a tray of cups of tea when door stepped by reporters, which immediately ended up becoming the story instead of the reason he was doorstepped in the first place.

Even his hair style and physical stunts like getting stuck on a zip line wrapped in Union Jacks are more of the same. It's just how he operates and the media and commentators lap it up. Anyone with any sense just sees straight through and past it.

This tunnel will absolutely never be built. They can't even manage to justify HS2 which connects high density parts of England and could end up with hundreds of millions of journeys and is extremely deliverable without any technical challenges, so how is this project even remotely feasible?

Even the notion that it would somehow 'solve' the Northern Ireland - UK goods trade issue is absolutely nonsense given the issue is entirely politically generated by Brexit's lack of customs and technical product rules alignment, not a physical transport problem.

We're all now discussing some pie in the sky nonsense about a tunnel that will never be built, while he's thinking he's moved the narrative on and can get back to whatever it he was doing that doesn't involve thinking about Northern Ireland.

listermint

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Quite an interesting exchange between Boris Johnson and Margaret Brennan who hosts CBS News - Face of the Nation, really slamming home the Biden administration's position on Northern Ireland:

https://twitter.com/facethenation/status/1360982308740825092?s=21

Full interview:

https://www.cbsnews.com/video/full-interview-uk-prime-minister-boris-johnson-on-face-the-nation/

That's the first time in a long time I've seen his hair brushed.

Does he not do his usual Stchick for the US TV. That only reserved for home audiences?

CelticRambler

Anyone got a few bob to put towards infrastructure projects? :pac:

London's bridges are falling down

The strokes of the bureaucrat’s typewriter that consigned the bridge to Hammersmith and Fulham have proved more effective than the IRA at snarling up this part of London.

the bridge that connected them is closed for safety reasons – to vehicles since April 2019, and to pedestrians, cyclists and wheelchair users since last August. Although it is nearly two years since the first closure, there is still no clear plan for fixing the bridge.

Elsewhere along the Thames, the Vauxhall and London bridges have had to close for repairs, the bascules of Tower Bridge recently jammed, and climate change and increasing traffic will put other ageing structures under pressure.

Apparently political buck-passing has compounded the problem of a lack of funding. Such a shame there's nobody in Westminster with any experience of London politics ... :rolleyes:

Leroy42

I wonder how much something like the NI Scotland tunnel and all the associated infrastructure including rail links etc would cost?

Are we talking bns, or 100's of billions?

AlmightyCushion

Leroy42 wrote: »

I wonder how much something like the NI Scotland tunnel and all the associated infrastructure including rail links etc would cost?

Are we talking bns, or 100's of billions?

The Channel Tunnel cost £9 billion (about £16 billion in today's money). That was a much easier tunnel to build as well. This thing won't be cheap. The construction jobs while it is being built would be good for Northern Ireland, can't see it being much benefit after that. Who would actually use it?

murphaph

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

The Channel Tunnel cost £9 billion (about £16 billion in today's money). That was a much easier tunnel to build as well. This thing won't be cheap. The construction jobs while it is being built would be good for Northern Ireland, can't see it being much benefit after that. Who would actually use it?

Well us and an independent Scotland in the EU would be strong trading partners I'm sure but once again: this thing is pie in the sky like most of Johnson's utterings. He's a con artist.

ancapailldorcha

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