Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Sam Russell

Peregrinus wrote: »

The issue with frontline health and care workers is not just that they are more likely to acquire CV19 but also - and perhaps even more - that they are more likely to pass it on to others. In particular, they present a high risk of transmission to elderly and medically vulnerable people, because those people tend to spend more time with, and see a wider range of, health and care workers than younger and healthier people do.

So you can't reduce this to a straight trade-off — frontline workers versus the vulnerable and elderly. Not vaccinating frontline workers increases risk for the vulnerable and elderly.

I don't think you can deal with this by arguing that the vulnerable and elderly won't be at risk once vaccinated themselves. The vaccine doesn't work perfectly - no vaccine does - plus, for one reason or another, not all of the vulnerable elderly will be vaccinated. (E.g. some may have medical conditions which are inconsistent with vaccination.)

It is a political decision that follows from Public Health advice.

Nurses and doctors facing patients that have, or maybe could have, Covid opens them to infection so they should be early vaccination candidates for two reasons. First, they are very likely to be infected by their colleagues or by their patients because they are too often required to be in close quarters with them. Second, if they are infected or a close contact with someone infected, then they are off duty for the duration of quarantine, which puts pressure on other staff. Consequently, there is a high level of urgency in vaccinating them as a group.

Those in nursing homes and similar establishments are in the position (as shown by the statistics) that if they get infected, there is a very high rate of mortality. Consequently, those people should be vaccinated with some urgency, along with their carers.

We are doing both, which is the correct approach for us as a society. What I was pointing out that there is a political choice, guided by PH advice.

Every group in society is shouting - 'me next .. me next .. me next'. That is not right.

Seth Brundle

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

As for Frost being unelected, in 1981 the Taoiseach nominated James Dooge to the Senate and then made him a full Minister in his Government, so we have similar dodges on the books.

We didn't leave an important trading bloc because of "unelected bureaucrats" though!

Enzokk

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

As for Frost being unelected, in 1981 the Taoiseach nominated James Dooge to the Senate and then made him a full Minister in his Government, so we have similar dodges on the books.

I am not too worried about having people that are unelected in high positions. It is the hypocrisy of having someone that has never been elected to any position in cabinet and the House of Lords when it was one of the reasons to vote to leave the EU. But we know that and the people that wanted to Brexit will know it as well but will ignore the hypocrisy.

You still had some cover when you had Nicky Morgan and Zack Goldsmith in cabinet, at least they won elections as MP's, but Frost is a career unelected bureaucrat. It is very funny, in a very unfunny way to see.

Professor Moriarty

Enzokk wrote: »

I am not too worried about having people that are unelected in high positions. It is the hypocrisy of having someone that has never been elected to any position in cabinet and the House of Lords when it was one of the reasons to vote to leave the EU. But we know that and the people that wanted to Brexit will know it as well but will ignore the hypocrisy.

You still had some cover when you had Nicky Morgan and Zack Goldsmith in cabinet, at least they won elections as MP's, but Frost is a career unelected bureaucrat. It is very funny, in a very unfunny way to see.

Frost is Johnson's glove puppet. He'll have an opinion but he will be told what to say and what to do. A lightning rod for the flak.

BonnieSituation

Seth Brundle wrote: »

We didn't leave an important trading bloc because of "unelected bureaucrats" though!

It's also a defined process in our Constitution.

Complaining used a legitimate process, once, 40 years ago is an odd complaint, especially seeing as the UK have form with nod and wink processes.

I mean, the standard of showing confidence is just to tell the queen that you have the backing of the HOC and she goes "okay so".

So let's not start throwing digs at home there Zub!

tubercolossus

I think the issue is one of sheer basic competence. Gove is many things, most of them highly unpleasant, but no-one has ever accused him of being an idiot. At least, not compared to his cabinet colleagues. Appointing Frost in his place sends a clear sign to the EU that the UK is fundamentally not serious about Brexit from here on in. The EU knew that Gove was rational, at least behind closed doors, never mind what he said on his hind legs in Parliament. Frost is just a clown, a barker for Brexit nuttery of all stripes. He'll bluster and pound his fist and make great headlines in the Telegraph, but get absolutely nowhere with the EU.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/stephen-collins-outbreak-of-eu-bashing-among-irish-politicians-is-a-serious-overreaction-1.4488669?mode=amp

Here is the Irish Times take on Irish politicians rightfully angry at the commission.

Whilst I think they need to let it go for now due to the real politik of the immediate situation with the protocol the EU came within hours of checks having to be placed on the border. And it was done without so much as a phone call in advance.

That is an unforgivable action that would have had the most serious consequences for this country.

It can't be just forgotten and swept under the carpet. We are still mopping up the mess of the high moral ground handed over to the unionism and the British government.

Just as the Brits should be held accountable, so should the EU.

Peregrinus

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/stephen-collins-outbreak-of-eu-bashing-among-irish-politicians-is-a-serious-overreaction-1.4488669?mode=amp

Here is the Irish Times take on Irish politicians rightfully angry at the commission.

Whilst I think they need to let it go for now due to the real politik of the immediate situation with the protocol the EU came within hours of checks having to be placed on the border. And it was done without so much as a phone call in advance.

That is an unforgivable action that would have had the most serious consequences for this country.

It can't be just forgotten and swept under the carpet. We are still mopping up the mess of the high moral ground handed over to the unionism and the British government.

Just as the Brits should be held accountable, so should the EU.

Well, it was a shocking mistake. But, to be fair, once we pointed it out we got it reversed in a matter of hours. Which, once a mistake like that has been made, is pretty much what you want. Is there anything more the Commission could have done?

Possibly there is. We don't know by whom the mistake was made or at what point in the process. This isn't a matter of naming-and-shaming some individual; more of understanding how the error arose and being satisfied that measures have been taken to prevent such a thing happening again. And, possibly, we could be satisified about that without some unfortunate fonctionnaire having to be publicly pilloried. But we do need to know that the fault in the process has been identified and rectified.

Not directly Brexit related, but there were many who thought that employee rights would be eroded without the EU standing over them.

In this case the workers have improved their rights to paid holidays, sick pay etc, it is more a pushback against the "gig" economy.

Uber drivers are workers not self employed, Supreme Court rules

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56123668

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Not directly Brexit related, but there were many who thought that employee rights would be eroded without the EU standing over them.

In this case the workers have improved their rights to paid holidays, sick pay etc, it is more a pushback against the "gig" economy.


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56123668

I don't get your point. This one case is not a guarantee of workers' rights. The courts exist to enforce the law, not make it. If the Tories decide to erode workers' rights there's not much, if anything that can be done about it.

Seth Brundle

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/stephen-collins-outbreak-of-eu-bashing-among-irish-politicians-is-a-serious-overreaction-1.4488669?mode=amp

Here is the Irish Times take on Irish politicians rightfully angry at the commission.

Whilst I think they need to let it go for now due to the real politik of the immediate situation with the protocol the EU came within hours of checks having to be placed on the border. And it was done without so much as a phone call in advance.

That is an unforgivable action that would have had the most serious consequences for this country.

It can't be just forgotten and swept under the carpet. We are still mopping up the mess of the high moral ground handed over to the unionism and the British government.

Just as the Brits should be held accountable, so should the EU.

I'll see your IT article and raise it with this one...
EU fears Ireland risks undermining common cause by dwelling on Article 16
Analysis: Feeling in Europe that Ireland needs to be reminded solidarity works both ways

ancapailldorcha

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I don't get your point. This one case is not a guarantee of workers' rights. The courts exist to enforce the law, not make it. If the Tories decide to erode workers' rights there's not much, if anything that can be done about it.

Where the laws are ambiguous, it is up to the courts to decide what they actually mean.
Now that the issue has been cleared up, the balls in the Tories court to amend if they want to.

ancapailldorcha

Deleted User wrote: »

Where the laws are ambiguous, it is up to the courts to decide what they actually mean.
Now that the issue has been cleared up, the balls in the Tories court to amend if they want to.

It's definitely good news but the government has done little to earn the public's trust on workers' rights. I see no reason to alter my stance on this.

yagan

An error becomes a mistake when it's not corrected. Dwelling on A16 is a mistake.

Patser

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Frost is Johnson's glove puppet. He'll have an opinion but he will be told what to say and what to do. A lightning rod for the flak.

Frost, being unelected, also doesn't have to worry about any votes. Johnson, Gove etc can deflect all Brexit bad news onto Frost, and express personal disappointment in him, vague ideas they would have done better etc - without any voter backlash against Frost (who can then later disappear back into the shadows of the House of Lords or the likes)

Zubeneschamali

BonnieSituation wrote: »

So let's not start throwing digs at home there Zub!

I'm not, I am just saying that this appointment is good.

I get the hypocrisy angle, but that is a problem with the Brexit propaganda use of "unelected bureacrats", not with Frosts appointment.

Kermit.de.frog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'll see your IT article and raise it with this one...
EU fears Ireland risks undermining common cause by dwelling on Article 16
Analysis: Feeling in Europe that Ireland needs to be reminded solidarity works both ways

Well that's down to MM and his brand of consensus politics wanting to be all things to all people.

Normally that would be admirable. Doesn't work this time.

The physical border is either on the island or at the ports. It's unfortunate but there will be losers on this. It's either us or the extreme strain of northern unionism and british tory exceptionalism.

So which side is he going to be on?

He can't play both sides.

Kermit.de.frog

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, it was a shocking mistake. But, to be fair, once we pointed it out we got it reversed in a matter of hours. Which, once a mistake like that has been made, is pretty much what you want. Is there anything more the Commission could have done?

Possibly there is. We don't know by whom the mistake was made or at what point in the process. This isn't a matter of naming-and-shaming some individual; more of understanding how the error arose and being satisfied that measures have been taken to prevent such a thing happening again. And, possibly, we could be satisified about that without some unfortunate fonctionnaire having to be publicly pilloried. But we do need to know that the fault in the process has been identified and rectified.

I agree. It can never be allowed happen again and if a system is put in place that's fine and we move on.

I'm just very angry that the moral ground was surrendered and our position hopelessly exposed to be exploited by such an incomprehensible dumb and ignorant act after 4 years of intense negotiation.

If anything it's still there to be exploited ruthlessly by the British govt.

I think the British govt have been very restrained in response up till now anyway.

timetogo1

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I think the British govt have been very restrained in response up till now anyway.

The British govt have no choice. The deal hasn't been signed off by the EU and even with the deal there are huge issues for the UK, those would be magnified if they fall back to no deal.

Plus the British govt don't seem to care much about Northern Ireland except when it can be used to benefit the UK (e.g. moral outrage over article 16 a week or two after Boris was threatening of invoking it himself).

Enzokk

Deleted User wrote: »

Not directly Brexit related, but there were many who thought that employee rights would be eroded without the EU standing over them.

In this case the workers have improved their rights to paid holidays, sick pay etc, it is more a pushback against the "gig" economy.


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56123668

A bit early to claim victory for workers rights when they have only left just over a year ago and the transition only ended 7 weeks ago. So the case was started when they were still in the EU and the judges would not have taken into account any new laws made post Brexit on workers rights as none has been changed.

However there is still a lot of time for the politicians to change laws on workers rights.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'm not, I am just saying that this appointment is good.

I get the hypocrisy angle, but that is a problem with the Brexit propaganda use of "unelected bureacrats", not with Frosts appointment.

It is good in that he was there when the deal was negotiated so if there is a dispute he cannot claim he had nothing to do with it. Also that the EU doesn't have to explain to someone new how they work, he knows this already.

Zubeneschamali

The best thing is that it is a move away from the DExEU approach, a pop-up Department and Minister that Gets Brexit Done and then vanishes.

Now there is a permanent Cabinet level job dealing with the EU.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

Not directly Brexit related, but there were many who thought that employee rights would be eroded without the EU standing over them.

In this case the workers have improved their rights to paid holidays, sick pay etc, it is more a pushback against the "gig" economy.


https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56123668

Oh look - Brexit-Britain catching up with the French, who enforced that rule a year ago. :rolleyes:

If it's a sign of anything, it's that the EU (and its member states) will lead the way, and Brexit-Britain will follow along like a stray dog hoping to be treated nicely.

Leroy42

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

I agree. It can never be allowed happen again and if a system is put in place that's fine and we move on.

I'm just very angry that the moral ground was surrendered and our position hopelessly exposed to be exploited by such an incomprehensible dumb and ignorant act after 4 years of intense negotiation.

If anything it's still there to be exploited ruthlessly by the British govt.

I think the British govt have been very restrained in response up till now anyway.

But the UK threatening to break international law is simply forgotten about?

And 2 weeks prior Johnson said in the HoC that he was willing to trigger it.

The only people that think this gives the UK the moral high ground is the UK.

Kermit.de.frog

Leroy42 wrote: »

But the UK threatening to break international law is simply forgotten about?

And 2 weeks prior Johnson said in the HoC that he was willing to trigger it.

The only people that think this gives the UK the moral high ground is the UK.

You're talking about standards.

The tories have none and thus don't care. You present them with an open goal, no matter the hypocrisy of it, they will take it.

The idea is to not leave yourself exposed in the first place.

Same point also to @timetogo

Leroy42

Yes, but based on that logic then the EU can never win because no matter what there is always going to be something the UK don't like.

That is why I think the only people who think the UK have the moral high ground or the UK themselves. Everybody else can see what the reality is.

Padre_Pio

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'll see your IT article and raise it with this one...
EU fears Ireland risks undermining common cause by dwelling on Article 16
Analysis: Feeling in Europe that Ireland needs to be reminded solidarity works both ways

I don't like articles like this.

Feelings in Europe.

Either report the news or don't. Constructing a story based on a catchy headline is dangerous. There's not much content in the story that even relates to the headline

Kermit.de.frog

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yes, but based on that logic then the EU can never win because no matter what there is always going to be something the UK don't like.

Completely disagree. They can win by maintaining the high moral and practical ground which they had for 4 years which is why Britain had to accept the protocol in the end and that remarkable intrusion on UK sovereignty. A border inside their own own country.

Because they couldn't put any credible and coherent argument against it.

And what happens? All that hard work to keep Britain on the back foot on the protocol blown up through an act of mindblowing stupidity.

It doesn't matter it didn't happen in the end, it's the precedent that matters.

CelticRambler

CelticRambler wrote: »

Oh look - Brexit-Britain catching up with the French, who enforced that rule a year ago. :rolleyes:

If it's a sign of anything, it's that the EU (and its member states) will lead the way, and Brexit-Britain will follow along like a stray dog hoping to be treated nicely.

The case was first upheld in 2016, but Uber contested the rulings through all the courts, until it finally reached the Supreme court.

ancapailldorcha

Seth Brundle wrote: »

I'll see your IT article and raise it with this one...
EU fears Ireland risks undermining common cause by dwelling on Article 16
Analysis: Feeling in Europe that Ireland needs to be reminded solidarity works both ways

That's an appalling article. One of the worst I've ever read considering the source. There's not one metric being presented for the EU allegedly taking London's side in looking for flexibility. No policies or even a quote from officials.

CelticRambler

Deleted User wrote: »

The case was first upheld in 2016, but Uber contested the rulings through all the courts, until it finally reached the Supreme court.

So my point stands: still a year behind the French. That makes Britain a follower, not a leader.