Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Roanmore

Deleted User wrote: »

He is probably aware that calling for resignations right now could backfire badly for him and the Labour party.

I can't see how it could backfire. The media in the UK are burying this story, the BBC spent 30secs on it. Other organisations ignored it until forced to.
By calling for resignations he will highlight the corruption involved here. By not doing it he's basically buried it, if Starmer thinks it's a non story then it must be.

Roanmore

Roanmore wrote: »

I can't see how it could backfire. The media in the UK are burying this story, the BBC spent 30secs on it. Other organisations ignored it until forced to.
By calling for resignations he will highlight the corruption involved here. By not doing it he's basically buried it, if Starmer thinks it's a non story then it must be.

We've reached the stage where people are so fed up with the COVID restrictions that anyone who does anything that could potentially slow down the rollout will not be seen in a favourable light.

J Mysterio

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He is probably aware that calling for resignations right now could backfire badly for him and the Labour party.

While I don't agree, I understand the argument that Labour may not make ground campaigning on Brexit, but you still have to hold the government to account.

Starmer has been more dissapointing then I could have imagined.

https://twitter.com/ImIncorrigible/status/1363797200707411972

Sam Russell

I think Starmer must be waiting for the right hill to die on - there must be one coming up that is not Covid and not Brexit.

With this clown car Gov weaving all over the place, doing U turns every other day, (called spin). With deaths reaching nearly 1,000 per day over the last few weeks, not being covered. but with the focus on vaccination rates, not deaths, clearrly everyone in the media are completely distracted away from the deaths. UK death rates and cases are over twice our rates over the whole of the pandemic - but no analysis in the UK media as to why that would be.

There must be a banana skin cropping up soon.

Sam Russell

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think Starmer must be waiting for the right hill to die on - there must be one coming up that is not Covid and not Brexit.

With this clown car Gov weaving all over the place, doing U turns every other day, (called spin). With deaths reaching nearly 1,000 per day over the last few weeks, not being covered. but with the focus on vaccination rates, not deaths, clearly everyone in the media are completely distracted away from the deaths. UK death rates and cases are over twice our rates over the whole of the pandemic - but no analysis in the UK media as to why that would be.

There must be a banana skin cropping up soon.

The objective appears to be the first country in Europe to be fully open for business, that aim has almost universal support it seems.

Enzokk

So Starmer calls for Hancock's resignation, Johnson considers it and decides it will not happen and draws a line under it. What then? Because that is what happened with all the others that should have been fired.

View

Enzokk wrote: »

So Starmer calls for Hancock's resignation, Johnson considers it and decides it will not happen and draws a line under it. What then? Because that is what happened with all the others that should have been fired.

You can ask that of any and all actions by opposition parties in virtually every parliament worldwide (bar those with knife-edge parliamentary arithmetic).

Presumably all those opposition parties should all just shut up and stop opposing their respective governments and confine themselves to collecting their salaries and expenses. :-)

The Raging Bile Duct

Enzokk wrote: »

So Starmer calls for Hancock's resignation, Johnson considers it and decides it will not happen and draws a line under it. What then? Because that is what happened with all the others that should have been fired.

You look like you're holding the government to account. If Johnson keeps letting them off the hook, you can show how he has consistently failed in his duty and keep chipping away at the public confidence in this awful government. Instead, Starmer is basically giving them a free pass to do whatever they want. He is absolutely useless.

ancapailldorcha

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

You look like you're holding the government to account. If Johnson keeps letting them off the hook, you can show how he has consistently failed in his duty and keep chipping away at the public confidence in this awful government. Instead, Starmer is basically giving them a free pass to do whatever they want. He is absolutely useless.

I'm not so sure. Hancock and Sunak are coming out of this looking ok by and large. The stuff about PPE contracts for Tory pals will be forgotten about in the grand scheme of things.

Sam Russell

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. Hancock and Sunak are coming out of this looking ok by and large. The stuff about PPE contracts for Tory pals will be forgotten about in the grand scheme of things.

But the PPE and other dodgy contracts, like the track and trace that did not work, amounts to billions of GBP - almost enough to put on the side of a bus. Surely that is worth mentioning?

The Raging Bile Duct

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. Hancock and Sunak are coming out of this looking ok by and large. The stuff about PPE contracts for Tory pals will be forgotten about in the grand scheme of things.

That's because there is absolutely nobody trying to hold them to account for it as far as I can tell. It's baffling.

Strazdas

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

That's because there is absolutely nobody trying to hold them to account for it as far as I can tell. It's baffling.

The relationship between the 'base' and the Tory Party is quite a bizarre one in the modern era - very similar to the one with Trump's version of the Republicans in the US. It seems all the former UKIP and BNP types and the hardcore Tory supporters have rallied around Johnson and see he and his mates as a bulwark against all that is liberal and lefty.

They don't even care if the party is corrupt or are liars, as long as they are getting one over on the others, that will suffice.

Lemming

J Mysterio wrote: »

While I don't agree, I understand the argument that Labour may not make ground campaigning on Brexit, but you still have to hold the government to account.

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

You look like you're holding the government to account. If Johnson keeps letting them off the hook, you can show how he has consistently failed in his duty and keep chipping away at the public confidence in this awful government. Instead, Starmer is basically giving them a free pass to do whatever they want. He is absolutely useless.

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not so sure. Hancock and Sunak are coming out of this looking ok by and large. The stuff about PPE contracts for Tory pals will be forgotten about in the grand scheme of things.

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think Starmer must be waiting for the right hill to die on - there must be one coming up that is not Covid and not Brexit.

... SNIP...
There must be a banana skin cropping up soon.

I think that Sam Russell & ACD have the measure of why Starmer is doing what he's doing, albeit still a disappointment. Given how apocryphal this cabinet are and how incompetent, inept, brazen, and shamelessly they have behaved no ministers have been sacked. Labour risks becoming wearisome to the public if there are calls every other week for a minister to resign over the latest [insert abysmal sh1te] here. I mean, if Grayling is still in a job after the ferry fiasco, as is Dido Harding over the total failure that is UK track & trace, then what makes anyone think that Hancock will be held to account by the current PM? That's before we even start on Patel or Braverman, nor the highly disruptive, tyrannical and otherwise uncontrollable, unelected SPADS that were only ejected after great damage was effected.

The opposition can do literally nothing at the moment except jump up and down for some indignant exercise. Right now they need to pick a hill to charge up and risk dying on that will effect meaningful change or risk becoming a bore to the media & public due some perceived notions of "because all they ever do is call for someone's head". That possibility at least makes sense from a strategic perspective as to why Starmer is behaving as disappointingly as he is (at least on the surface of it)

Edit: a better opportunity given the current deference given to the government, by both a complicit media and the public around the pandemic out of fear & panic, might be to wait until the pandemic is on the way out and public anxiety and deference turns to anger with questions demanding answered. The opposition will (already) have quite the Tory performance portfolio to play with, on top of the ever dawning realities of Brexit starting to show in the day to day lives of people now that more and more businesses are being affected.

ArmaniJeanss

Lemming wrote: »

Given how apocryphal this cabinet are and how incompetent, inept, brazen, and shamelessly they have behaved no ministers have been sacked. Labour risks becoming wearisome to the public if there are calls every other week for a minister to resign over the latest [insert abysmal sh1te] here. I mean, if Grayling is still in a job after the ferry fiasco, as is Dido Harding over the total failure that is UK track & trace, then what makes anyone think that Hancock will be held to account by the current PM? That's before we even start on Patel or Braverman, nor the highly disruptive, tyrannical and otherwise uncontrollable, unelected SPADS that were only ejected after great damage was effected.

If he'd just answered the question from Sophie Ridge with sections of this post, it would have been quite good. Whilst still having the same net effect of not actually calling for Hancock's removal.

Seth Brundle

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If he'd just answered the question from Sophie Ridge with sections of this post, it would have been quite good. Whilst still having the same net effect of not actually calling for Hancock's removal.

He would then be admitting that his party is impotent

Lemming

Seth Brundle wrote: »

He would then be admitting that his party is impotent

To quote Denis Thatcher; "Better to say nothing and let people think you’re an idiot than open your mouth and prove it".

CelticRambler

The Raging Bile Duct wrote: »

That's because there is absolutely nobody trying to hold them to account for it as far as I can tell. It's baffling.

Lemming wrote: »

The opposition can do literally nothing at the moment except jump up and down for some indignant exercise.

This is one of the ironies of Brexit: all the emotional trauma and economic damage to HashtagTakeBackControl from the (supposedly) unelected, unaccountable, wasteful, pointless rule-makers in Brussels ... yet oblivious to their own impotence at home.

Lemming

CelticRambler wrote: »

This is one of the ironies of Brexit: all the emotional trauma and economic damage to HashtagTakeBackControl from the (supposedly) unelected, unaccountable, wasteful, pointless rule-makers in Brussels ... yet oblivious to their own impotence at home.

But it's not about your reality remember? It's all about how you feel ...


.... Thatcher - that masturbatory poster pin-up of Tories everywhere - would have despised the f*cking lot of them for that alone.

ancapailldorcha

I get the impression that Starmer is a technically minded individual. He seems to like to employ simple solutions to complex problems such as speaking at length about the need to reclaim the flag or expelling prominent left wingers from the Labour party. However, there are two problems with this approach.

The first is that the Conservative party has successfully moved to "own" patriotism, culture, history & heritage. They're now in the stage of doing the same with free speech with their new free speech champion who'll probably be Toby Young or someone cut from the same cloth and who'll have no issue solving the problem that bamboozled Voltaire and Rousseau. It's all very short termist as the Tory party seems to have no interest in courting & cultivating the next generation of voters.

Secondly, there's the awkward alliance of northern voters who tend to be small c conservatives and cosmopolitan social liberals. Starmer is going to have to work a lot harder than Johnson at keeping his party's electoral coalition together. I doubt the red wall voters care too much about University politics, but the issue of statues and colonialism is going to be a harder bar for Starmer to limbo under. FPTP means a split means destruction but this is a bigger problem for Labour than the Conservatives.

He's on about savings or bonds or something now. He needs to craft a narrative which is something that Johnson is sadly quite adept at.

FrancieBrady

What time is the debate on the DUP petition at in the HoC does anyone know?

10000maniacs

Starmer taking the big shots now is like somebody shooting for goal from within their own half.
He is right to hold off until there is clear sight to the election and the Tories become bigger targets.
And for some reason that totally passes me by, a huge amount of people still seem to think Johnson is a great guy.
Starmer is waiting for him to make the big mistake.

A bit of post Brexit news that is Good for the UK.
Mostly speculative, but very positive if correct.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56155531
About 1,000 EU finance firms are eyeing up opening offices in the UK for the first time, according to financial consultancy Bovill.

A Freedom of Information (FOI) request by the firm found that 1,500 money managers, payment firms and insurers have applied for permission to continue operating in the UK after Brexit.

Around two-thirds had no prior physical operations in Britain, it said.

It suggests London "is set to remain a key global financial centre", it added.

"Many of these European firms will be opening offices for the first time, which is good news for UK professional advice firms across multiple industries including lawyers, accountants, consultants and recruiters." said Mike Johnson, managing consultant at Bovill.

Just like UK firms opening up a presence in EU countries, EU firms are doing likewise.

Lemming

10000maniacs wrote: »

Starmer taking the big shots now is like somebody shooting for goal from within their own half.
He is right to hold off until there is clear sight to the election and the Tories become bigger targets.
And for some reason that totally passes me by, a huge amount of people still seem to think Johnson is a great guy.
Starmer is waiting for him to make the big mistake.

I don't think it's so much a case of Starmer waiting for Johnson to make a big mistake (he's made plenty already) and more a case of waiting for everyone else to start paying attention to the fact that Johnson is making these big mistakes.

As I alluded to briefly in an earlier post today, the UK government is being propped up by deference given by a complicit media & population-at-large on account of that "rally round the flag in times of war" mindset due to the pandemic. That needs to end first, or at least to begin to disintegrate with an end in sight such that people stop fixating on "it" and start looking at the world around them.

An Ciarraioch

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What time is the debate on the DUP petition at in the HoC does anyone know?

Very late in the evenimg, judging by this:

https://twitter.com/PARLYapp/status/1363892922542936065

Kermit.de.frog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What time is the debate on the DUP petition at in the HoC does anyone know?

It wasn't in HOC chamber. I watched some of it. Same old stuff from the same old suspects. Even Mark Francios was giving the usual spiel about how the protocol is "unfinished business".

None of them respect agreements at all.

It didn't go well though for them.

https://twitter.com/AlexKane221b/status/1363911989915959296

I was actually impressed with the minister at the end. He gave words of comfort but left no doubt that they really have to get use to, and work with, the changes.

Even the head of the NI affairs select Committee said there was no other game in town and no viable alternative.

My main feeling was I actually felt a tiny bit sorry for them. It showed how isolated the DUP is in Westminster if anything. Not many speakers either.

Seth Brundle

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

My main feeling was I actually felt a tiny bit sorry for them. It showed how isolated the DUP is in Westminster if anything. Not many speakers either.

They made the bed that they're currently lying in!
They were warned and stubbornley went against the wishes of their electorate (the people of NI) to push their own bigoted agenda knowing that it could never work in practice.

Kermit.de.frog

Seth Brundle wrote: »

They made the bed that they're currently lying in!
They were warned and stubbornley went against the wishes of their electorate (the people of NI) to push their own bigoted agenda knowing that it could never work in practice.

Just to emphasise the influence they don't have. The head of their own NI select Committee, a tory, disagrees and they don't like him now...

https://twitter.com/Simon4NDorset/status/1363907504120471552

Remember they held the balance of power not long a go. Now it's all suspicion and in fighting. An extraordinary reversal.

beggars_bush

they could have got a much better deal for NI
instead, they looked for a hard brexit at every turn

Sam Russell

beggars_bush wrote: »

they could have got a much better deal for NI
instead, they looked for a hard brexit at every turn

Will the motor dealers in NI have to buy their cars from Dublin rather than GB because of RoO?

For example, will Mercedes, and VAG cars be shipped from Germany via Dublin into NI rather than through Britain?

Akrasia

[Deleted User] wrote: »

He is probably aware that calling for resignations right now could backfire badly for him and the Labour party.

Possibly, or maybe he wants to keep the most corrupted incompetent ministers in place because they’ll be easy targets in the next GE

Lawyers are trained in how to set traps for their opponents to walk into

What benefit is there In getting Hancock fired? Another clone will replace him, but he’ll have a cleaner record

Is Starmer playing the long game? I certainly hope so