Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Akrasia

prawnsambo wrote: »

Has there ever been? Just racking my brains to think of one in the last twenty years and coming up empty.

Is it even possible to have effective opposition when you’re in an 80 seat minority and the state and corporate media are almost entirety captured by the Tories?

Starmer cannot change anything but he can theoretically build a case for the next election campaign. I hope this is what he is doing

BonnieSituation

Akrasia wrote: »

Possibly, or maybe he wants to keep the most corrupted incompetent ministers in place because they’ll be easy targets in the next GE

Lawyers are trained in how to set traps for their opponents to walk into

What benefit is there In getting Hancock fired? Another clone will replace him, but he’ll have a cleaner record

Is Starmer playing the long game? I certainly hope so

Putting it this way is fairly plausible.

Especially as you say in your follow-up that the 80 seat majority makes it so difficult to really battle the government.

joeysoap

Sam Russell wrote: »

Will the motor dealers in NI have to buy their cars from Dublin rather than GB because of RoO?

For example, will Mercedes, and VAG cars be shipped from Germany via Dublin into NI rather than through Britain?

I think Renault have always done that. I can recall WX transporters unloading in Newry

Akrasia

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Putting it this way is fairly plausible.

Especially as you say in your follow-up that the 80 seat majority makes it so difficult to really battle the government.

I hope I’m not just being overly optimistic and Starmer isn’t just out of his depth

It’s hard to believe that, given that the Westminster government are so transparently corrupt and awful but we’ve just had 4 years of Donald Trump so the realms of plausiblity have shifted quite a lot

cameramonkey

Akrasia wrote: »

Possibly, or maybe he wants to keep the most corrupted incompetent ministers in place because they’ll be easy targets in the next GE

Lawyers are trained in how to set traps for their opponents to walk into

What benefit is there In getting Hancock fired? Another clone will replace him, but he’ll have a cleaner record

Is Starmer playing the long game? I certainly hope so

The name of the game is to put pressure on Hancock by calling for his resignation. Constantly pointing out his failures and his illegalities but hope he hang on for dear life while you take pot shots at him. That whole process undermines the government as well as the minster whether he hangs on or falls.


What Starmer is doing is giving them a free ride. He is clueless.

Akrasia

cameramonkey wrote: »

The name of the game is to put pressure on Hancock by calling for his resignation. Constantly pointing out his failures and his illegalities but hope he hang on for dear life while you take pot shots at him. That whole process undermines the government as well as the minster whether he hangs on or falls.


What Starmer is doing is giving them a free ride. He is clueless.

What does he actually gain from forcing Hancock to resign?
Another Johnson crony takes his place, Hancock gets shuffled into another portfolio and his successor gets a clean slate.

View

Akrasia wrote: »

What does he actually gain from forcing Hancock to resign?
Another Johnson crony takes his place, Hancock gets shuffled into another portfolio and his successor gets a clean slate.

It’s called “holding the government to account” which is what the opposition parties are supposed to do. It also has the added benefits of: a) calling the judgement of Johnson into account since if his Ministers screw up, it reflects on him, and, b) sowing dissension in the Conservative party if Johnson turns on one of their Ministers.

fiveleavesleft

Akrasia wrote: »

What does he actually gain from forcing Hancock to resign?
Another Johnson crony takes his place, Hancock gets shuffled into another portfolio and his successor gets a clean slate.

Nothing really of any substance but it might be no harm to be a little more lively on occasion. This was supposed to be a big week for him as he relaunched but he just came across as flat, especially in that Sophie Ridge interview. Sophie also interviewed McDonnell, he knows he won't gain anything either but he at least seemed interested.

People still struggle with his name but he already has a rep as a bit of a softie. He doesn't want to let that snowball.
https://twitter.com/RidgeOnSunday/status/1363425767342956544

Leroy42

Akrasia wrote: »

What does he actually gain from forcing Hancock to resign?
Another Johnson crony takes his place, Hancock gets shuffled into another portfolio and his successor gets a clean slate.

He doesn't have to go to the 'extreme' of calling for his resignation, but he can make it out to a gift from Labour that they aren't.

'Due to the unprecedented times we are in, and with the faint glow of hope becoming clearer with each passing day, I don't think now is the right time to be taking the governments, as out of depth and chaotic as they undoubtedly are across every area of their responsibility, focus away from the single goal that they, and the country as a whole, should be focused on.

As minister for health, Hancock has the chance to actually do something that will be of benefit to the country. To get the vaccines rolled out, to get schools back hospitality sector reopened, get people back to work.

And it is because of the this need that Labour are not going to be making any calls for his resignation at this point. In fact, we are, as we have always been, ready and willing to provide any help and assistance to the government in the goal of delivering for the entire UK.

However, let me be very clear and put the entire government on notice. The, frankly, chaotic and hamfisted way they have handled this entire issue has been shameful and lead to the deaths and misery of thousands, and counting their loved ones, hundreds of thousands. And in particular we will be looking very closely at all the apparently corrupt and, as found in yesterdays court ruling, illegal process, of handling out massive contracts to what appears to be friends, neighbours and party donors of millions of pounds of tax payers money. At a time when people have lost their jobs, where people are forced to service on the basics, Hancock and his government colleagues have been busy feathering the nests of their buddies.

We will be asking for a complete investigation, and that any instances of corruption are following to the full extent of the law and that Hancock, and ultimately the PM himself is held to account.'

An answer similar to that, said with conviction and clear anger, would be ar better. It shows Labour are working for the everyman, and also that they are willing to put politics aside for the time being. But Hancock is put on notice and knows that his days are numbered.

Enzokk

It is all theatre when you are 3 years away from a election. Some people want Labour to "hold the government to account" by asking to the resignation of ministers. How asking for something when it isn't going to happen unless Johnson wants it to happen baffles me, but I guess some are happy with optics more than action.

Johnson has shown that he will do what he wants, he was playing with fire when he expelled his own MP's to ensure he was in a minority government, but with a 80 seat majority and a lot of the new seats won being new MP's who will not rock the boat as they were chosen because they supported Brexit and the Party, you are not going to get any change out of Johnson now. This is a man that didn't fire Cummings when he broke lockdown rules and the country decided it was done with the lockdown after that, but then did when he was rude to his partner. He has not morals, he also wanted a journalist beaten up, so trying to "hold him to account" to fire a minister is like telling China it shouldn't be running prison camps when the whole world can see what is happening. It doesn't matter.

Now the optics of it looks bad, then again what good did the passion and shouting of Corbyn do for Labour? I guess there is a frustration at seeing all of this happen and knowing that nothing can change this so people lash out where they can as they know they cannot lash out against the person that is the cause of this.

Let's be honest as well, even if Starmer did everything right there is still a very slight chance he gets anywhere close to Downing Street. The disadvantages are too big and the biggest problem he has isn't the Tories but his own party. There is still a significant group of people aggrieved that Corbyn isn't leader and they are blaming Starmer for everything and rather than see Labour succeed without Corbyn they would happily be be under Tory rule to have a "I told you so" at the centrists in Labour. Then we get to the media and then we get to party funding.

This is just looking at Labour, don't forget that while Johnson is a terrible PM he is still a very skilled politician. He will turn Starmer asking for a resignation into Starmer not supporting the government during this unprecedentent crisis and this is turn hurting the response and costing lives.

rock22

Not making the headlines but another problem from Brexit , Students having problems getting visas for EU countries.

I suspect Brexit is going to throw up a lot of these 'small' problems which well go under the radar but affect real people. I have a small number of suppliers in UK still unable to export because the volume is small and couriers and not too keen on 'groupage' anymore.

Silent Running

Sam Russell wrote: »

Will the motor dealers in NI have to buy their cars from Dublin rather than GB because of RoO?

For example, will Mercedes, and VAG cars be shipped from Germany via Dublin into NI rather than through Britain?

VW group ship their cars from Emden port in Germany. I would be surprised if they don't ship NI cars through Dublin at the moment. The alternative would be for the cars to be shipped to an English port, offloaded on to a transporter, driven across England and Wales to be loaded onto a ferry to... where? Dublin Port?

A car carrier ship arrives in Dublin from Emden about once a week at the moment. The NI cars should be loaded onto a transporter there and driven north.

Surely Brexit makes this even easier as the cars are essentially staying in the EU.

But would that mean that a NI car bought second hand by a UK resident would have to declare it as in import from the EU?

Oh what a tangled web we weave, eh?

Seth Brundle

Silent Running wrote: »

But would that mean that a NI car bought second hand by a UK resident would have to declare it as in import from the EU?

No because NI is not in the EU

rock22

Lemming wrote: »

To quote Denis Thatcher; "Better to say nothing and let people think you’re an idiot than open your mouth and prove it".

At the risk of being pedantic.

That quote, or a variation of it, has been attributed to everyone from Jonathan Swift to Mark Twain and Abraham Lincoln.
Denis Thatcher may have said it, I have been known to say it occasionally too, but it did not originate with him. In fact there appears a similar sentiment in proverbs if you care to search for it.

rock22

Silent Running wrote: »

VW group ship their cars from Emden port in Germany. ..

A car carrier ship arrives in Dublin from Emden about once a week at the moment. The NI cars should be loaded onto a transporter there and driven north.

.

Do you know if VW ships parts the same way?
I had difficulty getting an answer from VW Ireland . They seem to be totally reliant on GB for parts .

Sam Russell

Silent Running wrote: »

VW group ship their cars from Emden port in Germany. I would be surprised if they don't ship NI cars through Dublin at the moment. The alternative would be for the cars to be shipped to an English port, offloaded on to a transporter, driven across England and Wales to be loaded onto a ferry to... where? Dublin Port?

A car carrier ship arrives in Dublin from Emden about once a week at the moment. The NI cars should be loaded onto a transporter there and driven north.

Surely Brexit makes this even easier as the cars are essentially staying in the EU.

But would that mean that a NI car bought second hand by a UK resident would have to declare it as in import from the EU?

Oh what a tangled web we weave, eh?

In this, if a GB resident bought a car from NI, then in theory, it would need to be declared. However, if it was built in the EU then no duty would apply. However, going the other way, duty would apply to EU manufactured cars. How many UK assembled cars are over 60% UK content?

The thing about cars is they are individually traced through the reg plate. So if the NI authorities decide not to bother collecting the duty on a GB import, should that car be exported south, Revenue might demand the uncollected duty.

Interesting times.

Gerry T

Seth Brundle wrote: »

No because NI is not in the EU

Can NI not import from the EU for domestic use in NI without tariffs/quotas. And for NI exports to the EU can NI also do this without tariffs/quotas provided the goods originate from NI ?
If so couldn't a person (business) in NI purchase a EU car for use in NI without any tariff's/quotas?

Leroy42

Seth Brundle wrote: »

No because NI is not in the EU

From a standards and import/export POV it is isn't it?

NI must continue to operate under EU rules, in fact the UK government have taken on the responsibility of ensuring that.

So goods can travel freely from Germany, via Dublin to NI. But if they travel Germany through GB and then into NI it requires border checks and paperwork.

Seth Brundle

It would be subject to checks etc at the sea border but it is not an import from the EU.

ambro25

Sam Russell wrote: »

In this, if a GB resident bought a car from NI, then in theory, it would need to be declared. However, if it was built in the EU then no duty would apply. However, going the other way, duty would apply to EU manufactured cars. How many UK assembled cars are over 60% UK content?

The thing about cars is they are individually traced through the reg plate. So if the NI authorities decide not to bother collecting the duty on a GB import, should that car be exported south, Revenue might demand the uncollected duty.

Interesting times.

Quid of the German car imported into/sold new in the UK (i.e.with EU type cert), then exported back to the EU27 (UK RHD with EU 'V5'/plate), pre-Brexit?

And if you think that one is interesting...I have another RHDer imported into/sold new in the UK, that's already done the "UK/EU import-export roundabout" twice pre-Brexit (UK new> RoI > Fra > UK again > Lux)

Rethorical (I'd likely get 2-3x more for the Binwagen, under the various "trade an oil burner for an EV" deals, than it's worth) but goes to show that Brexit has got a lot of Boards motors discussions to run yet.

Seth Brundle

"The Brexit trade deal will not be fully approved by the EU until the end of April, after the UK reluctantly agreed to a two-month delay."

Reluctantly? Were they pushed into it by the EU?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-approval-april-uk-eu-b1806160.html

Capt'n Midnight

Totally Off Topic but may be of interest

The totally impartial BBC are showing this tonight.
Tue, Feb 23 · 20:30-22:00 · BBC One HD
Blitz Spirit with Lucy Worsley

However, BBC4 has just started the definitive guide to UK politics or those who want to see how things work.
today · Tue, Feb 23 · 20:00-20:30 · BBC Four
Yes, Minister

Lemming

rock22 wrote: »

Do you know if VW ships parts the same way?
I had difficulty getting an answer from VW Ireland . They seem to be totally reliant on GB for parts .

I had thought given that Thatchers (of all people) husband was known to occasionally utter those words had a certain level of irony to it given the situational context.

Sam Russell

GBP appears to be continuing to rise in value - testing 86p = €1.

Have not seen that since March 2020.

Strazdas

Sam Russell wrote: »

GBP appears to be continuing to rise in value - testing 86p = €1.

Have not seen that since March 2020.

Vaccination programme + Johnson's announcing the end of the lockdown is in sight.

Very much up in the air what happens next though. If the pandemic was to go a bit haywire on them again, confidence would go right out the window.

Capt'n Midnight

Strazdas wrote: »

Vaccination programme + Johnson's announcing the end of the lockdown is in sight.

Very much up in the air what happens next though. If the pandemic was to go a bit haywire on them again, confidence would go right out the window.

All they need is confidence to go up long enough to win an election and it's 5 more years.

J Mysterio

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

All they need is confidence to go up long enough to win an election and it's 5 more years.

Next general election is May 24, so no panic.

Peregrinus

J Mysterio wrote: »

Next general election is May 24, so no panic.

That's May 2024, not May 24th!

J Mysterio

Indeed

Capt'n Midnight

J Mysterio wrote: »

Next general election is May 24, so no panic.

The UK is a democracy.

So the fixed term parliament act can be overridden by a simple vote, as was done a while back.

If the Tories think they could win then they might try.
Unless they are expecting truck loads of good news in 2024.