Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

CelticRambler

Seth Brundle wrote: »

The Irish Times is reporting that the ERG are using the EU's threat to trigger Article 16 as an opportunity to ditch the NI Protocol and adopt a system of mutual enforcement.

That's nothing more than a re-hash of Trimble's moaning from last week. The idea was put forward during the Brexit negotiations, analysed, found to be badly researched, seriously flawed, practically (and probably legally) unworkable, and thrown out. But the Unionists seem to have trouble letting go of bad ideas. There was no good reason for the IT to give column-inches to Trimble's whinge, and I'm not sure why they're paying any attention to these musings of a bunch of out-of-touch British politicians either. :rolleyes:

BonnieSituation

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's nothing more than a re-hash of Trimble's moaning from last week. The idea was put forward during the Brexit negotiations, analysed, found to be badly researched, seriously flawed, practically (and probably legally) unworkable, and thrown out. But the Unionists seem to have trouble letting go of bad ideas. There was no good reason for the IT to give column-inches to Trimble's whinge, and I'm not sure why they're paying any attention to these musings of a bunch of out-of-touch British politicians either. :rolleyes:

That's their raison d'etre though.

Enzokk

Hurrache wrote: »

There is contrary claims to this now though, however I don't no how well inside the contrarian is to hear differently.
https://twitter.com/Mij_Europe/status/1365248859270742018

Let's see which way the EU will go, seeing that the DUP is agitating to break the NI Protocol that Johnson agreed. Going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

https://twitter.com/DavidYoungPA/status/1365351988582637577?s=20

That is the DUP stopping infrastructure work for checks that the UK agreed to take place between NI and the UK, even if Johnson will tell you these checks will not happen.

CelticRambler

Enzokk wrote: »

Let's see which way the EU will go, seeing that the DUP is agitating to break the NI Protocol that Johnson agreed. Going to be interesting to see how this plays out.

<snip>

That is the DUP stopping infrastructure work for checks that the UK agreed to take place between NI and the UK, even if Johnson will tell you these checks will not happen.

Well, it makes life easy for the EU: every request/demand/suggestion/proposal by UK Govt to modify the NI Protocol can be dismissed immediately on the grounds that the UK Govt is not ensuring that a UK region complies with the terms already agreed. "Not our problem, mate. Get back to us when those inspection points are ready for use."

Frank Bullitt

The DUP doing what they are really good at, making a complete and total balls of it. All for the sake of the union, it's a tragic comedy in motion.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1365362757231661061

So what will be done here?

DUP minister removed presumably (charged for breaking the law?). Westminster will have to step in as there is now a hole in the single market from my reading of it?

Or could they appoint a new minister from one of the other parties?

Either way the EU is hardly going to tolerate this.

Alliance party saying this move is illegal.

CelticRambler

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So what will be done here?

DUP minister removed presumably (charged for breaking the law?). Westminster will have to step as there is now a hole in the single market from my reading of it?

Or could they appoint a new minister from one of the other parties?

The most likely scenario would be a Westminster override, either by direct order to the personnel concerned, or indirectly by appointing a new minister (can Westminster do that by decree?).

If Johnson dithers around (a reasonable possibility, given his track record) perhaps the EU could come down hard on the UK and say that unless and until the situation is corrected, all relevant NI goods will have to be imported through Dublin. That'd definitely see certain feathers being ruffled and hackles raised! :pac:

More realistically, though, if Johnson doesn't react swiftly and positively to sort out this (domestic UK) problem, it'll give the EU all the justification it needs to put a hold on any other concessions that the UK might look for, that would be based on trust. Shellfish exports, for example.

J Mysterio

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

That's her story and she's sticking to it.

Haha, touché.

Kermit.de.frog

CelticRambler wrote: »

The most likely scenario would be a Westminster override, either by direct order to the personnel concerned, or indirectly by appointing a new minister (can Westminster do that by decree?).

If Johnson dithers around (a reasonable possibility, given his track record) perhaps the EU could come down hard on the UK and say that unless and until the situation is corrected, all relevant NI goods will have to be imported through Dublin. That'd definitely see certain feathers being ruffled and hackles raised! :pac:

More realistically, though, if Johnson doesn't react swiftly and positively to sort out this (domestic UK) problem, it'll give the EU all the justification it needs to put a hold on any other concessions that the UK might look for, that would be based on trust. Shellfish exports, for example.

SDLP calling for executive to meet tonight. They say nothing like this can be done without executive agreement.

Alliance calling it an illegal act.

It really is desperate shenanigans from the DUP who lest we forget has been meeting paramilitaries in recent days as well.

Capt'n Midnight

UK customer gets a replacement hard drive under warranty
and a bill because the terms and conditions going back to 2015 mean Seagate only pay the postage and not the applicable duties and customs charges.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/26/seagate_uk_customer_charged_vat/

The UPS service tracking the package stated it had been "delayed due to a Brexit-related disruption" and the logistics firm was "adjusting delivery plans as quickly as possible". Parkinson later logged into the UPS system only to discover there was a charge of £45.12 including £33.62 in "government charges" and £11.50 "Brokerage charges" on the new drive.

some comments

Look at all this lovely sovereignty we've got!
...
Of course we have sovereignty. It wasn't the EU that charged the import VAT, it was the UK.
...
Since 1973 the UK contributed a total of £215 billion to the EU.

So far in one year the cost of Brexit to the UK is over £200 billion.

After 5 years I'm still waiting for anybody to tell me what the advantages of Brexit are, I mean just one advantage, please....

Seth Brundle

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

It really is desperate shenanigans from the DUP who lest we forget has been meeting paramilitaries in recent days as well.

Thankfully they are getting called out on that by SDLP & Alliance parties - couldn't imagine them tolerating republican terrorists views on Brexit or the protocol...
https://twitter.com/naomi_long/status/1365011144365248517?s=19

FrancieBrady

Checks still happening according to this:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1365363975035224067

Kermit.de.frog

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Checks still happening according to this:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1365363975035224067

I'm not so sure, checks seem to be continuing but

He has also told ports not to levy charges on traders bringing goods from Great Britain into Northern Ireland.

https://www.politico.eu/article/northern-ireland-halts-construction-of-inspection-facilities-for-post-brexit-checks/

That's a clear breach.

Akrasia

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Thankfully they are getting called out on that by SDLP & Alliance parties - couldn't imagine them tolerating republican terrorists views on Brexit or the protocol...
https://twitter.com/naomi_long/status/1365011144365248517?s=19

The DUP have been stepping way over the line in the last few days, we all know their core beliefs but they’re making moves to legitimate violence and conflict over the NI/Irish border

Openly engaging with terrorists while ordering breaches of international treaties is not a good move. Have they finally realized that Johnson and the rest of Westminster have zero respect for them so they’re retreating to their old gang of thugs and murderers in an attempt to remain relevant by restarting ‘the troubles’

It's diabolical that she is meeting with terrorists "so all voices can be heard".

FrancieBrady

Any comment from the EU about developments?

J Mysterio

They're getting very excited down in London about 'breaches of the ministerial code' by Sturgeon. Loved this tweet.

https://twitter.com/Redpeter99/status/1365199773477830656

The establishment really do hold Scotland to very different standards then they do their own. It's laughable. BBC political editor never even mentioned recent Hancock scandals, but was very quick to jump on the 'take down Sturgeon' bandwagon.

Even worse is Andrew Neil who, while a grumpy curmudgeon on tv, is unbelievably toxic and nasty on Twitter. He seems to have a vendetta against Sturgeon and the SNP, tweeting rubbish about them literallly every day, while completely ignoring the antics in Westminster. BBC news is bad, 'GB News' will be even worse.

Zubeneschamali

I don't think this huts Sturgeon, the more Westminster, the Tory Press and the BBC attack, the better she looks to SNP voters.

Infini

Akrasia wrote: »

The DUP have been stepping way over the line in the last few days, we all know their core beliefs but they’re making moves to legitimate violence and conflict over the NI/Irish border

Openly engaging with terrorists while ordering breaches of international treaties is not a good move. Have they finally realized that Johnson and the rest of Westminster have zero respect for them so they’re retreating to their old gang of thugs and murderers in an attempt to remain relevant by restarting ‘the troubles’

I'd say they'll be eviserated next election with the Alliance pulling more and more moderate voters away from these ideological headbangers. Everything happening up there is a result of their blatent incompetence plain and simple. They refuse then to accept their own mistakes and blame everyone else and are now openly flaunting with Loyalist subversives. People are done with that kind of shíte and threatening to bring it back because they were incompetent and refused any deal that would have negated the need for the border checks in the first place is absolutely not on. They deserve to be chucked in the electorial sinbin and hopefully they will.

MrMusician18

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

UK customer gets a replacement hard drive under warranty
and a bill because the terms and conditions going back to 2015 mean Seagate only pay the postage and not the applicable duties and customs charges.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/02/26/seagate_uk_customer_charged_vat/

some comments

Look at all this lovely sovereignty we've got!
...
Of course we have sovereignty. It wasn't the EU that charged the import VAT, it was the UK.
...
Since 1973 the UK contributed a total of £215 billion to the EU.

So far in one year the cost of Brexit to the UK is over £200 billion.

After 5 years I'm still waiting for anybody to tell me what the advantages of Brexit are, I mean just one advantage, please....

Some EU based companies have had to open local UK offices to serve the UK market

Capt'n Midnight

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Some EU based companies have had to open local UK offices to serve the UK market

And others pass the costs on to their customers.

But even opening a UK office means more costs to the end customer because it's an expense that wasn't needed two months ago.


Has anyone shown examples of where Brexit benefits the punter ?

Sam Russell

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And others pass the costs on to their customers.

But even opening a UK office means more costs to the end customer because it's an expense that wasn't needed two months ago.


Has anyone shown examples of where Brexit benefits the punter ?

Most international companies, when they open that type of branch office, pass on the total cost of that office onto the customers, along with any additional duties that might be charged.

In Ireland, we have suffered from this since forever - just look at M&S who charge an additional 15% to 25% on items sold in Ireland over their UK prices - which are available on the web for comparison.

Infini

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And others pass the costs on to their customers.

But even opening a UK office means more costs to the end customer because it's an expense that wasn't needed two months ago.


Has anyone shown examples of where Brexit benefits the punter ?

Honestly there isnt any. It's a scam plain and simple and fuelled by a greedy Tory Party and a large section of biased media spreading untruths and lies.

Worst part of it all is the absolute refusal to admit they were wrong in the face of facts, it's full on denialism and by the time the penny finally drops and the consequences truly felt proper by the man on the street it'll be too late to do anything about it.

The biggest issue with it all is that it's not going to be a quick crash and burn it's going to be a slow acid bath and death by a thousand cuts.

Capt'n Midnight

Infini wrote: »

Honestly there isnt any. It's a scam plain and simple and fuelled by a greedy Tory Party and a large section of biased media spreading untruths and lies.

Next you'll be saying that the Freeport scheme is a way for Tory contributors to make a quick buck by avoiding tax. Or at least if you aren't saying it I am.

Yes the Shannon Scheme was the first and China used it as an example to rapidly build exports, but I can't see it being applied in the UK in a non-partisan fashion.

The biggest issue with it all is that it's not going to be a quick crash and burn it's going to be a slow acid bath and death by a thousand cuts.

Slow, and they'll be small cuts. But they'll add up over time.

circadian

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It's diabolical that she is meeting with terrorists "so all voices can be heard".

Funny that. What about the voices of the majority that didn't vote for brexit in NI.

The DUP are walking a very dangerous path and loyalism has been becoming more active the Lat few months. This does not bode well.

eire4

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I don't think this huts Sturgeon, the more Westminster, the Tory Press and the BBC attack, the better she looks to SNP voters.

I have to agree. If there were smart they would keep their mouths shut but by bleating on and on like this it is the same as all the intransigence to holding a second referendum they are just boosting SNP support really.

eire4

Infini wrote: »

I'd say they'll be eviserated next election with the Alliance pulling more and more moderate voters away from these ideological headbangers. Everything happening up there is a result of their blatent incompetence plain and simple. They refuse then to accept their own mistakes and blame everyone else and are now openly flaunting with Loyalist subversives. People are done with that kind of shíte and threatening to bring it back because they were incompetent and refused any deal that would have negated the need for the border checks in the first place is absolutely not on. They deserve to be chucked in the electorial sinbin and hopefully they will.

I think you may well be right there in your thinking next election wise. The only thing I would add is to change one word in your last sentence. "they deserve to be thrown in the electoral scrapheap and hopefully they will".

schmoo2k

So if the DUP are declaring "Guerrilla War" on article 16, isn't that equivalent to declaring "Guerrilla War" on Westminister and the UK government as a whole?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-declares-guerrilla-warfare-on-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4497441?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fdup-declares-guerrilla-warfare-on-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4497441

Padre_Pio

Jacob Rees-Mogg: If unionists can win a majority in Stormont “then they can vote down the protocol”

Unionists have lost ground in the last two elections.
I don't think the DUP is going to come out Brexit smelling of roses since you can trace all the current problems back to them supporting the Torys

Also, is Stormont still a thing? They haven't reformed the govt as far as I know.

schmoo2k

schmoo2k wrote: »

So if the DUP are declaring "Guerrilla War" on article 16, isn't that equivalent to declaring "Guerrilla War" on Westminister and the UK government as a whole?

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dup-declares-guerrilla-warfare-on-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4497441?mode=sample&auth-failed=1&pw-origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.irishtimes.com%2Fnews%2Fireland%2Firish-news%2Fdup-declares-guerrilla-warfare-on-northern-ireland-protocol-1.4497441

Jacob Rees-Mogg is a catholic and he's the one telling them to wait.

Why are parties who are currently talking with terrorist groups allowed to use terms like Guerrila warfare.