Viability of small dairy farm

wrangler

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Paper never refused ink and O suppose we should day now that a screen never refused a keystroke. By your figures he is achieving 1200 average hot progeny. On every business there are outliers for profitability and.losses. Neither should be considered as the norm. It like Teagasc's and Farmers Journal hyping of the top 10%. If the average run of the mill unit cannot make a profit then the industry is in trouble. Generally 8k litre cows would be average fat and protein depending on volume to achieve extra profit. These cows are doing 1800 gallons these type of cows are not for everyone.

1200/ cow average for progeny is either pedigree sales or a drystock unit as well. You also made a sweeping statement I. Another post regarding the reason for poor profitability in drystock blaming part-time back on the hobby horse again. Saying lads were paying too much for stores, quite simply matter if the store man is not making a margin he will exit the game as well.

At present rations are about 280/ton no matter how efficient you are you cannot make a margin at that. Reason there is no margin is every year the winter finisher loses he will be bailed out. The answer is not looked at where the issue is.

However I digress, no matter how efficient you are or what type of cow you look at milking on 40-50 acre platforms is gone or going out the door

You should read over your posts they're difficult to make out some times, relying too much on predictive text.
I said hobby farmers paying too much for cattle, plenty of those around, specially those that get cattle just dropped off from a dealer.
I'm sure the progeny of that farm gross 1200/hd, any way it was just a guess, say 1000/hd, €100000 if you like. their dairying supples all the infrastructure for feeding efficiently. but it gets my point across, farmers are entitled to convert to a better enterprise and there's lots of reasons for converting.

K.G.

wrangler wrote: »

Still, €300000 +120000 for progeny...... there's a bit of spending in it

How do people do this kind of thing,do they reach right into someones pocket or are they able to tell just from looking at the trouser how much money someone has.i often qoute an accountant i spoke
with once about this that told me about 2 clients ,one milking 80 cows on 100 acres with just a bit of silage bought in.all work done with an old 7610 with a loader ,another with 220 cows and going full bells.tell me which made nearly 80 k the previous year and which made 22k

Donald Trump

K.G. wrote: »

How do people do this kind of thing,do they reach right into someones pocket or are they able to tell just from looking at the trouser how much money someone has.i often qoute an accountant i spoke
with once about this that told me about 2 clients ,one milking 80 cows on 100 acres with just a bit of silage bought in.all work done with an old 7610 with a loader ,another with 220 cows and going full bells.tell me which made nearly 80 k the previous year and which made 22k

The one paying the accountant more money made 22k because the accountant actually put in a bit of effort for him

Bass Reeves

K.G. wrote: »

How do people do this kind of thing,do they reach right into someones pocket or are they able to tell just from looking at the trouser how much money someone has.i often qoute an accountant i spoke
with once about this that told me about 2 clients ,one milking 80 cows on 100 acres with just a bit of silage bought in.all work done with an old 7610 with a loader ,another with 220 cows and going full bells.tell me which made nearly 80 k the previous year and which made 22k

Lad with 200 cows with bells and whistles probably had massive depreciation . This shelters tax but can leave you open to massive repayments. If you are paying for capital investment out of cash in hand you could have 50k in depreciation coming in. The problem is nowadays most lads are doing this with borrowings where as previously lads did it out of the bank account. Everybody now is on about cash flow and borrowings

Bass Reeves

Donald Trump wrote: »

The one paying the accountant more money made 22k because the accountant actually put in a bit of effort for him

Accountant can only do what you give him contrary to popular opinion

Donald Trump

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Accountant can only do what you give him contrary to popular opinion

There are plenty of useless ones though that don't do everything that they could do even if you give them everything. You'd nearly have to know all the stuff yourself and point it out to them.


Lads can come on here asking question about VAT etc. Back in the day there was no boards.ie. Plenty would just blindly send everything into the accountant and his authority wouldn't be questioned.


An accountant can only do as much as you give him. That doesn't mean that they will do as much as you give them!

wrangler

K.G. wrote: »

How do people do this kind of thing,do they reach right into someones pocket or are they able to tell just from looking at the trouser how much money someone has.i often qoute an accountant i spoke
with once about this that told me about 2 clients ,one milking 80 cows on 100 acres with just a bit of silage bought in.all work done with an old 7610 with a loader ,another with 220 cows and going full bells.tell me which made nearly 80 k the previous year and which made 22k

I didn't say any thing about profit, I just put up the figures he declared on the ad, I know the person and he's not a bo...ks.
Every time I say here that cows can gross output at least €2000 when defending €300/acre rent , someone contradicts it, so here you have someone grossing nearly a grand more

Birdnuts

wrangler wrote: »

.
Actually two ton meal, it's way ahead of drystock and for someone who's starting their farming career it has to be considered,
Fattening store cattle doesn't work, too many hobby farmer at it giving too much money for store cattle and most part time farmers can't take time off to calve cows/ lamb ewes.
So it's full time dairying or nothing, the threatened withdrawal of subsidies will finish the reat

Interesting that farmers in Cork get the most CAP money - the traditional home of big dairy in many peoples mind and some of the biggest farms in the country.

wrangler

Birdnuts wrote: »

Interesting that farmers in Cork get the most CAP money - the traditional home of big dairy in many peoples mind and some of the biggest farms in the country.

Yea, you'd wonder what God they pray to. dairy got extra at decoupling while we had to make do with the subsidies we had in the reference years

Donald Trump

wrangler wrote: »

Yea, you'd wonder what God they pray to. dairy got extra at decoupling while we had to make do with the subsidies we had in the reference years

Most dairy men weren't on big subs. There was nothing really to collect in dairy unless you were finishing the calves through to beef yourself


Cork is just a big county with decent land and plenty of big farms

Donald Trump

Jjameson wrote: »

Area aid, disadvantaged payments, then the buckos that were caught in the tax conundrum who needed to pay tax or invest in a capital investment. Another shed built. Beef cattle then needed to utilise said shed, land rented to keep them. Subs drawn on said cattle. Entitlements gained on the rented land which were then stacked at home after decoupling.

CAP beneficiary database is online. https://publicapps.agriculture.gov.ie/capben-ui/


Anyone can go and have a look at it. Obviously you'll always find exceptions, but I have looked at it in the past and the tillage men are raking in plenty more than any dairyman around. There aren't too many dairies in this area. There are at least two tillage farmers within a couple of miles from me that are pulling in over 100k (although both coincidentally have some of it in father's name and some in son's names). Now admittedly, one of them has a sight of land. The other takes a lot of land but wouldn't own a huge chunk.



No area aid. Not too many dairies getting disadvantaged payments either.



Also, cattle were nearly always sold to the finisher with the subs unclaimed. It was always easier to sell them with the last subs left unclaimed.

Birdnuts

Birdnuts wrote: »

Interesting that farmers in Cork get the most CAP money - the traditional home of big dairy in many peoples mind and some of the biggest farms in the country.

East Cork would have some of the best land in the country.....alot of v.wealthy lads from tillage,with huge acres about there

Donald Trump

Jjameson wrote: »

I can’t find Donald trumps payment!

It's hidden away with my tax returns

einn32

Jjameson wrote: »

Bps penalty. But the big intensive dairy Guys around here are not even submitting applications around here and so it falls to the county council to prove a direct link to pollution.

IPC licence would sort that loophole easily. Farms of a certain size or output need a licence to operate. A few grand a year in fees. Potential non-compliance fines. Compliance monitoring costs. It might turn a lot of farmers off the idea of expanding. Or it could push the big operators to get even bigger to absorb extra costs.

Say my name

Birdnuts wrote: »

Interesting that farmers in Cork get the most CAP money - the traditional home of big dairy in many peoples mind and some of the biggest farms in the country.

Cork, Tipperary, Galway and Mayo.

All known for big dairy.

What's your definition of big dairy as opposed to small dairy?

Answer please before throwing sh1te around.
You do know dairy farms were allocated the lowest per hectare cap back when it was divied up. Conacre, premiums, were foreign words to anyone putting clusters on.

wrangler

Say my name wrote: »

Cork, Tipperary, Galway and Mayo.

All known for big dairy.

What's your definition of big dairy as opposed to small dairy?

Answer please before throwing sh1te around.
You do know dairy farms were allocated the lowest per hectare cap back when it was divied up. Conacre, premiums, were foreign words to anyone putting clusters on.

It was originally a subsidy for low income beef, sheep and tillage farmers ....and rightly so. it's being increased for dairy and poorer farmers at the expense of those same beef sheep and tillage farms.

Say my name

wrangler wrote: »

It was originally a subsidy for low income beef, sheep and tillage farmers ....and rightly so. it's being increased for dairy and poorer farmers at the expense of those same beef sheep and tillage farms.

You're funny at times.

I know exactly what's happening atm.
It's who shouts/cries loudest as always.

Donald Trump

wrangler wrote: »

It was originally a subsidy for low income beef, sheep and tillage farmers ....and rightly so. it's being increased for dairy and poorer farmers at the expense of those same beef sheep and tillage farms.

You are referring to convergence?


I gather than many large tillage farmers converted to dairy after quotas were done away with. They had the large land banks and good land and were the big new entrants. The OP on this thread would be more the typical suckler fella looking to switch - no? 50-80 acres and looking to try to get up and running with a few cows. The big tillage fellas already had some sort of infrastructure and access to credit and payments coming in.
Those big ex-tillage fellas would still be getting their big BPS and they would be being decreased with convergence.


There are not many dairies left in my local area. There were a good few more 10-20+ years ago or so but most packed it in - especially when the quotas were coming to an end because they didn't want to get into that race. They'd have had very little subs established and are not in dairy anymore. A few are retired and maybe have a few cattle or sucklers. One bought a digger and went working it and set his ground out. What category do they fall into?

Say my name

Maybe someone else could answer me.
It's highly relevant to the thread.

What is big dairy in Ireland?

Is it a term non dairy farmers use to insult dairy farmers in Ireland?
Is a a term to describe anyone that supplies a creamery?
Is it a term that spoofers heard on podcasts from the U.S. and think it's sexy to describe farmers in this country?
Wtf is it in Ireland?

By definition anyone that uses the term thinks there's a small dairy.
Explain please too what small dairy is in Ireland?
Maybe give examples and numbers of such per county.

NcdJd

Donald Trump wrote: »

CAP beneficiary database is online. https://publicapps.agriculture.gov.ie/capben-ui/


Anyone can go and have a look at it. Obviously you'll always find exceptions, but I have looked at it in the past and the tillage men are raking in plenty more than any dairyman around. There aren't too many dairies in this area. There are at least two tillage farmers within a couple of miles from me that are pulling in over 100k (although both coincidentally have some of it in father's name and some in son's names). Now admittedly, one of them has a sight of land. The other takes a lot of land but wouldn't own a huge chunk.



No area aid. Not too many dairies getting disadvantaged payments either.



Also, cattle were nearly always sold to the finisher with the subs unclaimed. It was always easier to sell them with the last subs left unclaimed.

I know a few on the Dublin cap listing. Some of them not farming anymore I take it that's because they still own the ground ? Also there are a couple on that with high direct payments that have mostly rented ground. Would they be claiming payments on some of the ground they rent ?

Donald Trump

Say my name wrote: »

Maybe someone else could answer me.
It's highly relevant to the thread.

What is big dairy in Ireland?

Is it a term non dairy farmers use to insult dairy farmers in Ireland?
Is a a term to describe anyone that supplies a creamery?
Is it a term that spoofers heard on podcasts from the U.S. and think it's sexy to describe farmers in this country?
Wtf is it in Ireland?

By definition anyone that uses the term thinks there's a small dairy.
Explain please too what small dairy is in Ireland?
Maybe give examples and numbers of such per county.

I would have considered "small dairy" to be a fella with enough cows to make some sort of a living out of it. Whereas "big dairy" to be the fella with enough cows to make a good living out of it and have enough spare to keep expanding/investing.



The number of cows to fall into one or other category would change over time!

_Brian

Surely animal density is a better factor to determine potential for negative effects on environment and biodiversity.

Not only regarding a farm level but in relation to an overall water catchment area.

Say my name

Donald Trump wrote: »

I would have considered "small dairy" to be a fella with enough cows to make some sort of a living out of it. Whereas "big dairy" to be the fella with enough cows to make a good living out of it and have enough spare to keep expanding/investing.

There's no small dairy in Ireland.
It's all big dairy.

The definition of big dairy in Ireland is anyone that supplies a processor, has a tractor, slurry spreader.

The definition of small dairy in Ireland is a three legged stool, uses the milk purely for own domestic household, uses a range rover to harvest and transport hay.

I'll be backed up on this!

Donald Trump

NcdJd wrote: »

I know a few on the Dublin cap listing. Some of them not farming anymore I take it that's because they still own the ground ? Also there are a couple on that with high direct payments that have mostly rented ground. Would they be claiming payments on some of the ground they rent ?

You have to be an "active farmer" to claim BPS. Not "farming anymore" probably means they still own the place and a son is running it? So that they are probably still officially actively farming themselves.

There could be some who want to keep their payments so instead of "renting land" they "sell the grass" from it. Technically against the rules but sure what can you do? Some fellas are afraid of renting with the entitlements in case there is a new reference period and they don't get allocated any because they are not actively farming.



The tillage fella with the big BPS I mentioned on mainly rented ground that I know of would be renting ground a long time. They would have been claiming the subs during reference years. The entitlements were based off what you were submitting and drawing, not what you owned. After the entitlements were set, you owned that entitlement and you could draw down one of them as long as you had a hectare to submit. It didn't have to be any specific hectare.
(Some could have bought extra ones too in theory)

Donald Trump

Say my name wrote: »

There's no small dairy in Ireland.
It's all big dairy.

The definition of big dairy in Ireland is anyone that supplies a processor, has a tractor, slurry spreader.

The definition of small dairy in Ireland is a three legged stool, uses the milk purely for own domestic household, uses a range rover to harvest and transport hay.

I'll be backed up on this!

Maybe. I was only telling you what the terms meant to me.



I wouldn't consider the OP to be big dairy if he gets up and running. There could be an official definition that conflicts with my understanding.

NcdJd

Donald Trump wrote: »

You have to be an "active farmer" to claim BPS. Not "farming anymore" probably means they still own the place and a son is running it? So that they are probably still officially actively farming themselves.

There could be some who want to keep their payments so instead of "renting land" they "sell the grass" from it. Technically against the rules but sure what can you do? Some fellas are afraid of renting with the entitlements in case there is a new reference period and they don't get allocated any because they are not actively farming.



The tillage fella with the big BPS I mentioned on mainly rented ground that I know of would be renting ground a long time. They would have been claiming the subs during reference years. The entitlements were based off what you were submitting and drawing, not what you owned. After the entitlements were set, you owned that entitlement and you could draw down one of them as long as you had a hectare to submit. It didn't have to be any specific hectare.
(Some could have bought extra ones too in theory)

Ah that makes sense now. The two lads with the high direct payments would be renting the ground off the owners for a good number of years.

The other lads that are retired would have their kids doing something with it now.

Thanks for that man. It's been something I've been trying to understand for a while now.

Say my name

Donald Trump wrote: »

Maybe. I was only telling you what the terms meant to me.



I wouldn't consider the OP to be big dairy if he gets up and running. There could be an official definition that conflicts with my understanding.

I'd consider him/her, them a dairy farmer.

Now if I saw them in person I might change my mind.

It's a bullsh1t definition brought in from the U.S. to differentiate the farmers market suppliers to the processor suppliers. It's used by people from vegans to everyone now not a dairy farmer.
I've never heard the term used in any other farming enterprise bar dairy.
How often have you heard seen big tillage, big beef, big suckler, big vegetable, big chicken, big pig, big sheep?
I'd expect anyone that uses the term to also use ..mate, Royston, hangry, onesie.

A kick in the h0le and a fortnight carrying buckets of milk and training heifers would probably cure anyone of it though. Or maybe not...

wrangler

Donald Trump wrote: »

You are referring to convergence?


I gather than many large tillage farmers converted to dairy after quotas were done away with. They had the large land banks and good land and were the big new entrants. The OP on this thread would be more the typical suckler fella looking to switch - no? 50-80 acres and looking to try to get up and running with a few cows. The big tillage fellas already had some sort of infrastructure and access to credit and payments coming in.
Those big ex-tillage fellas would still be getting their big BPS and they would be being decreased with convergence.


There are not many dairies left in my local area. There were a good few more 10-20+ years ago or so but most packed it in - especially when the quotas were coming to an end because they didn't want to get into that race. They'd have had very little subs established and are not in dairy anymore. A few are retired and maybe have a few cattle or sucklers. One bought a digger and went working it and set his ground out. What category do they fall into?

Yea, convergence, the example of the guy on the ad he'd have a big entitlement plus max disadvantaged and could be increasing due to convergence because of large acreage while others with drystock are decreasing

charolais0153

Say my name wrote: »

Cork, Tipperary, Galway and Mayo.

All known for big dairy.

What's your definition of big dairy as opposed to small dairy?

Answer please before throwing sh1te around.
You do know dairy farms were allocated the lowest per hectare cap back when it was divied up. Conacre, premiums, were foreign words to anyone putting clusters on.

How can u put mayo and cork in the same category

Say my name

charolais0153 wrote: »

How can u put mayo and cork in the same category

That's the list of counties by ranking of cap payments per county.

Cork gets the highest. (It's also the largest county in Ireland which has nothing at all to do with this discussion since the payments are due to big dairy)
Tipperary are second.
Galway are third.
Mayo are fourth.