Viability of small dairy farm

Ford4life

Say my name wrote: »

A bit of a warning. It's on late for a reason.

Pat Shortt gives the acting performance of his career. Not a nice ending.

If you were looking for the positive in this. You could say posters on here are just trying to show tough love.

Keep your optimism whatever you do in life. You've a bunch of that in spades.

Pat short is a brilliant actor, another one of his great films was garage.
I tried to watch it and the tv wouldnt work so i tried it online and the blasted thing said it wasnt available in my region, ill try rent it somewhere
Pat short looks a little strange in this one

Ford4life

Donald Trump wrote: »

There are various reasons why that land might be covered in furze.



One might be that people, who knew their stuff back in the day, figured out that that was really all it was good for.

Just terrible management by the current owner, she has a few horses and left the land go to ****, used be a brilliant field for grass

Say my name

Ford4life wrote: »

Pat short is a brilliant actor, another one of his great films was garage.
I tried to watch it and the tv wouldnt work so i tried it online and the blasted thing said it wasnt available in my region, ill try rent it somewhere

Give it a month after watching 'Pilgrim Hill'.
We're getting fond of you posting here.

Ford4life

Say my name wrote: »

Give it a month after watching 'Pilgrim Hill'.
We're getting fond of you posting here.

im like yer little pet something to do while waiting for calving sur

Say my name

Ford4life wrote: »

im like yer little pet something to do while waiting for calving sur

Steady on now ole chap!

Ford4life

wrangler wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with you, if you're young and want a career in farming, you may milk cows, why would you keep the farm in the same enterprise just because your father did it.
It's difficult to pin dairy guys/gals on here on profit per cow or even production per cow but a farmer I know was on an ad during the week and he was producing 8000ltrs/ cow so at the very least the cow is grossing €3000 plus calf.
Why would anyone farm sheep or cattle with that available, as for the difference in price.... is it €100/cow despite all the complaining.
I often accuse the public service of '' Pulling up the ladder'' maybe it applies to dairy farmers too

That would be the top end of the scale but like you said, sucklers 9 month old calf maybe 900 at most. Costs about 700 to keep a cow for the year. 200 of a margin but what was the cost of the calf for the year, then you have insurance, diesel etc all to be paid for and theres nothing left for you at the end of it. A gross income from the cow at 2000 would be average enough and thats enough to make a living from doing what you love

Ford4life

Ford4life wrote: »

That would be the top end of the scale but like you said, sucklers 9 month old calf maybe 900 at most. Costs about 700 to keep a cow for the year. 200 of a margin but what was the cost of the calf for the year, then you have insurance, diesel etc all to be paid for and theres nothing left for you at the end of it. A gross income from the cow at 2000 would be average enough and thats enough to make a living from doing what you love

Afaik that 700 includes diesel,insurance,fencing etc???

Ford4life

Birdnuts wrote: »

Interesting that farmers in Cork get the most CAP money - the traditional home of big dairy in many peoples mind and some of the biggest farms in the country.

Its higher on average i reckon. Like you said some of the biggest farms in the country as they rent out land for 300 an acre. Figures for other counties are lower on average but probably a similar total paid out all in all. Plus cork is the biggest county in ireland so that would help

Ford4life

Donald Trump wrote: »

You are referring to convergence?


I gather than many large tillage farmers converted to dairy after quotas were done away with. They had the large land banks and good land and were the big new entrants. The OP on this thread would be more the typical suckler fella looking to switch - no? 50-80 acres and looking to try to get up and running with a few cows. The big tillage fellas already had some sort of infrastructure and access to credit and payments coming in.
Those big ex-tillage fellas would still be getting their big BPS and they would be being decreased with convergence.


There are not many dairies left in my local area. There were a good few more 10-20+ years ago or so but most packed it in - especially when the quotas were coming to an end because they didn't want to get into that race. They'd have had very little subs established and are not in dairy anymore. A few are retired and maybe have a few cattle or sucklers. One bought a digger and went working it and set his ground out. What category do they fall into?

Pretty much described me perfectly, 60 acres, 45 is very good land and id try and reclaim the rest myself, have some infrastructure, slatted shed, silage pit etc just need milking parlour and would be up and running, certainly helped the tillage fellas as they would of had a lot of machinery that wouldnt be needed anymore to sell

Ford4life

Say my name wrote: »

I'd consider him/her, them a dairy farmer.

Now if I saw them in person I might change my mind.

It's a bullsh1t definition brought in from the U.S. to differentiate the farmers market suppliers to the processor suppliers. It's used by people from vegans to everyone now not a dairy farmer.
I've never heard the term used in any other farming enterprise bar dairy.
How often have you heard seen big tillage, big beef, big suckler, big vegetable, big chicken, big pig, big sheep?
I'd expect anyone that uses the term to also use ..mate, Royston, hangry, onesie.

A kick in the h0le and a fortnight carrying buckets of milk and training heifers would probably cure anyone of it though. Or maybe not...

Never heard big beef etc, anyone could be considered a dairy farmer in my opinion, thing that differentiates them would be are they good dairy farmers or greedy dairy farmers training heifers would be valuable experience alright :eek:

Ford4life

Say my name wrote: »

Steady on now ole chap!

Experiment might be a better word pet was a poor word choice

Ford4life

Deleted User wrote: »

Afaik that 700 includes diesel,insurance,fencing etc???

Maybe it does, i explained that badly id say, but the cost of keeping the calf then for the year would be over the 200 margin. SFP would bring us into profit alright but it would be put straight back into the farm in some way or another, be it some machine or towards a few dairy calves etc.
I did our rough costings before anyway, ill share them here
We had 14 calves to sell this year @900 each 12600
Costs:
Insurance 2000
Diesel 600
Vet 500
Contractor 2500
Water electricity 350
Fertilizer 2400
General repairs and maintenence 1000, oils, filters, part here and there etc
Fencing 100
Ration/meal 2000
Straw 300
I have probably forgotten something but that leaves us with rough costings of 12,250 leaving us with a grand total of 350 euro
Helped a lot by the fact we do everything ourselves if possible, slurry, fert spreading fencing etc
SFP of about 6000 leaves us with 6350 which considering its a full years work isnt a lot and nowhere near enough to earn a living off of

Kevhog1988

Ford4life wrote: »

Maybe it does, i explained that badly id say, but the cost of keeping the calf then for the year would be over the 200 margin. SFP would bring us into profit alright but it would be put straight back into the farm in some way or another, be it some machine or towards a few dairy calves etc.
I did our rough costings before anyway, ill share them here
We had 14 calves to sell this year @900 each 12600
Costs:
Insurance 2000
Diesel 600
Vet 500
Contractor 2500
Water electricity 350
Fertilizer 2400
General repairs and maintenence 1000, oils, filters, part here and there etc
Fencing 100
Ration/meal 2000
Straw 300
I have probably forgotten something but that leaves us with rough costings of 12,250 leaving us with a grand total of 350 euro
Helped a lot by the fact we do everything ourselves if possible, slurry, fert spreading fencing etc
SFP of about 6000 leaves us with 6350 which considering its a full years work isnt a lot and nowhere near enough to earn a living off of

How many hours per week would you be putting in at that?.

yosemitesam1

Ford4life wrote: »

Maybe it does, i explained that badly id say, but the cost of keeping the calf then for the year would be over the 200 margin. SFP would bring us into profit alright but it would be put straight back into the farm in some way or another, be it some machine or towards a few dairy calves etc.
I did our rough costings before anyway, ill share them here
We had 14 calves to sell this year @900 each 12600
Costs:
Insurance 2000
Diesel 600
Vet 500
Contractor 2500
Water electricity 350
Fertilizer 2400
General repairs and maintenence 1000, oils, filters, part here and there etc
Fencing 100
Ration/meal 2000
Straw 300
I have probably forgotten something but that leaves us with rough costings of 12,250 leaving us with a grand total of 350 euro
Helped a lot by the fact we do everything ourselves if possible, slurry, fert spreading fencing etc
SFP of about 6000 leaves us with 6350 which considering its a full years work isnt a lot and nowhere near enough to earn a living off of

How long are ye in that sort of a system?
Why not aim to substantially reduce diesel, vet, contractor, fertilizer and meal as much as possible while also getting 5k glas? Reduced total labour and cost per cow. Much of those costs arent adding to profitability for you and are just turning money over, not increasing profits at end of year.

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

Cork, Tipperary, Galway and Mayo.

All known for big dairy.

What's your definition of big dairy as opposed to small dairy?

Answer please before throwing sh1te around.
You do know dairy farms were allocated the lowest per hectare cap back when it was divied up. Conacre, premiums, were foreign words to anyone putting clusters on.

No need to be touchy - I'm actually quoting some lads I know who have been a long time in Dairy prior to the quotas going. Indeed they are some of the harshest critics I have met in terms of the direction the industry is going and the calibre of many of the new entrants who they say have little respect/understanding for stock or the land to the extent that the industry's rep is really starting to suffer . The Farming Indo had a piece on this issue last year with similar quotes from established Dairy farmers.

Say my name

What is big dairy?

Answer please Birdnuts.

If you don't know what it is then please don't use the term again.

cosatron

Birdnuts wrote: »

No need to be touchy - I'm actually quoting some lads I know who have been a long time in Dairy prior to the quotas going. Indeed they are some of the harshest critics I have met in terms of the direction the industry is going and the calibre of many of the new entrants who they say have little respect/understanding for stock or the land to the extent that the industry's rep is really starting to suffer . The Farming Indo had a piece on this issue last year with similar quotes from established Dairy farmers.

If a lad cant succeed in making money in one type of farming, he sure as hell wont make it milking. Some of the lads getting into milk around me really shouldn't.

Say my name

Say my name wrote: »

What is big dairy?

Answer please Birdnuts.

If you don't know what it is then please don't use the term again.

Id assume big dairy,is any farm which requires more than 1 labour unit to run properly

Prob average 100 plus cows,depending on set ups,

ruwithme

cosatron wrote: »

If a lad cant succeed in making money in one type of farming, he sure as hell wont make it milking. Some of the lads getting into milk around me really shouldn't.

Shur if you watch enough television,listen &read,you will eventually hear it often enough,that you can follow your dreams &be what you want to be.

(I'm still only dreaming)

FintanMcluskey

cosatron wrote: »

If a lad cant succeed in making money in one type of farming, he sure as hell wont make it milking. Some of the lads getting into milk around me really shouldn't.

You have reminded me of something I was told before

Many years a neighbour went to a walk/talk thing about entering dairy.

The guy giving the talk summarised it by saying, if you are utilising the current enterprise to its maximum potential, know your inputs and outputs down to the last cent then dairying is something that will be a viable option.

I suppose he was implying dairying must be ran as a business/professional enterprise.

Say my name

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Id assume big dairy,is any farm which requires more than 1 labour unit to run properly

Prob average 100 plus cows,depending on set ups,

But you're not Birdnuts.

Big dairy is used to describe anyone that supplies a creamery, has a tractor and slurry tanker, supplies cull cows to the factory.
I've seen it more times on other forums by idiots who mention the above and exclaim "Big dairy".

This is all why I'm wanting Birdnuts to give his definition of Big Dairy since he knows exactly what it is since he posted Cork is full of Big Dairy drawing down large Cap payments.

He can answer for himself.

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

What is big dairy?

Answer please Birdnuts.

If you don't know what it is then please don't use the term again.

Would you prefer "the Kiwi Model"??:rolleyes:

wrangler

cosatron wrote: »

If a lad cant succeed in making money in one type of farming, he sure as hell wont make it milking. Some of the lads getting into milk around me really shouldn't.

I wouldn't agree, if you're only making peanuts, you lose interest because, unlike dairy farmers, you can't buy fancy stuff to make life easier.
That's why the beef and sheep premiums were so important , they gave farmers a different lifestyle

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

This is all why I'm wanting Birdnuts to give his definition of Big Dairy since he knows exactly what it is since he posted Cork is full of Big Dairy drawing down large Cap payments.

He can answer for himself.

You claimed that Mayo is the same as Cork in both ways - I don't think so since the support for "flattening" is much higher in the former as is membership of the likes of Natura farmers etc. compared to IFA/ICMSA

Say my name

Birdnuts wrote: »

Would you prefer "the Kiwi Model"??:rolleyes:

You're some yoke to pin down.

Explain why you won't answer what you're interpretation of Big Dairy is?

There's Big Dairy in Cork. Your words.
Now flesh that out further what is Big Dairy?

I haven't a clue of your day job. You've kept that private. But imagine if I put an adjective in front of your profession whenever anything remotely to do with your profession was discussed.

Say my name

Birdnuts wrote: »

You claimed that Mayo is the same as Cork in both ways - I don't think so since the support for "flattening" is much higher in the former as is membership of the likes of Natura farmers etc. compared to IFA/ICMSA

This is getting worse.

Cork is the largest county in Ireland. Cork will always have the highest payments no matter the flattening.
Tipperary will always come second as it's the second largest.

Mayo will never come ahead of Cork and Tipperary.
Mayo is lucky it's in fourth place.
Donegal on flattening should be ahead of it by right and area.

What is Big Dairy?
Not a big dairy.
Big Dairy and why did you use in regard to Cork?

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

This is getting worse.

Cork is the largest county in Ireland. Cork will always have the highest payments no matter the flattening.
Tipperary will always come second as it's the second largest.

Mayo will never come ahead of Cork and Tipperary.
Mayo is lucky it's in fourth place.
Donegal on flattening should be ahead of it by right and area.

What is Big Dairy?
Not a big dairy.
Big Dairy and why did you use in regard to Cork?

You need to get out more if you think Cork has more small farmers than the likes of Mayo or Donegal or has the scale of Dairy, farm size etc. of the former. I cannot help u if u cannot grasp what "Big Dairy" is about ie. ever bigger operations, ever higher inputs/outputs, ever bigger impacts on water quality, animal welfare etc, increasing consolidation of processing, increasing corporate ownership of herds. For someone who claims to be all knowing on the subject your knowledge of the KIWI model as promoted by DAFM and eagerly lapped up by new entrants in particular seems to be rather limited to put it kindly

Birdnuts

Say my name wrote: »

You're some yoke to pin down.

Explain why you won't answer what you're interpretation of Big Dairy is?

There's Big Dairy in Cork. Your words.
Now flesh that out further what is Big Dairy?

I haven't a clue of your day job. You've kept that private. But imagine if I put an adjective in front of your profession whenever anything remotely to do with your profession was discussed.

I worked on my Uncles Dairy farm in the 70's and 80's and did farm relief on others at the same time - is that ok by you??

greysides

MOD: Say my name, Birdnuts, this little side bar of yours needs to go to PM if you wish to pursue it any further. Thanks.

Bass Reeves

Ford4life wrote: »

Maybe it does, i explained that badly id say, but the cost of keeping the calf then for the year would be over the 200 margin. SFP would bring us into profit alright but it would be put straight back into the farm in some way or another, be it some machine or towards a few dairy calves etc.
I did our rough costings before anyway, ill share them here
We had 14 calves to sell this year @900 each 12600
Costs:
Insurance 2000
Diesel 600
Vet 500
Contractor 2500
Water electricity 350
Fertilizer 2400
General repairs and maintenence 1000, oils, filters, part here and there etc
Fencing 100
Ration/meal 2000
Straw 300
I have probably forgotten something but that leaves us with rough costings of 12,250 leaving us with a grand total of 350 euro
Helped a lot by the fact we do everything ourselves if possible, slurry, fert spreading fencing etc
SFP of about 6000 leaves us with 6350 which considering its a full years work isnt a lot and nowhere near enough to earn a living off of

There are a few costs that could be cut. Insurance at 2k , if you are stocked low 2k is lot on ration at over 100 euro/ cow. Is it possible to reduce other costs after all sub 20 suckler's.on 60 acres.

I am not have a cut at you but even if you change you system unless you get a handle on costs you will struggle in any farming sector. If it costs 700/cow for 19 cows that produce 14calves(I know there may be more calves normally) how do you expect to manage costs for 40-50 dairy cows on the same amount of land.

Just because turnover increases it of no use if costs increase. If you need 100 euro worth of ration per cow for 17 suckler's how much ration will you need for 40-50 dairy cows. While 2k in turnover may seem a lot this is for a 7 day a week job that for about 45 weeks of the year will take 6 hours per day. Not only will you have these cows you will also have 7-10 replacement heifers and calves to manage as well.