Viability of small dairy farm

Ford4life

Donald Trump wrote: »

No. The article is misleading you.


What they might have done (assuming the figures are correct) is to have structured things as a registered partnership. In that scenario the TAMS ceiling is 160k.


80k would then receive grant aid at 40% (=32k) (father)

80k would receive grant aid at 60% (=48k) (qualified young farmer son)



Total aid received is 80k. But that is because there are two people applying. And they have to be set up correctly to do that.

Ah right, sure it wouldn't be Irish if they didnt make it easy to misinterpret That makes more sense to be fair, and thats the way i thought it was too until i saw that article, why dont they just say 48,000 is the max they will pay?

Ford4life

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Big difference is as you say long hours. No structure to the day, some days flat out some days they prefer if you were not around. Time off when it is no use to.you.inntge middle of winter.

MNC's are brilliant employers, health insurance paid for and a pensions contribution. As well a possibility of moving on with a career. Working for a farmer or contractor max they will pay is 15/ hour most farmers would be at 11-12 max. Contractors at present are at 12-14 if they can get away with it. There are MNC's paying more and less than that.
As you get older it easier to do a bit after an 8 hour day from an inside environment rather than from a physical job. As well not all handy jobs are office bound.

Local Authorities now have building Technicians employed. They are checking the rental houses that are taken for HAP. I imagine that there pay scale is heading for 40k or above it. They travel out to check houses. A pudding of a job if there ever was one.

The other thing you do not understand is that a lot of office jobs are capable of being done WFH. In ten years time a huge percentage of office jobs will be like that. You could even make milk cows with them

Thats true about the office jobs being done more from home, the flexitime side of things would be handy, i'd only be going with the contractor for a few years until i could get going at dairy, 5 years maybe, plus I'd get a lot more useful experience from contractor work or with a farmer that would come in very handy for going into farming, easier to stay fit and healthy doing physical work also, rather than driving all around eating ****e and looking at houses although that job does sound handy, how many years of hardship is there before you do get to that level?

Kevhog1988

Ford4life wrote: »

Im starting to think, i could nearly earn that much working with a farmer and contractor in a year from driving machines, easy work just with long hours, flat out in summer and if you are good, youd be put feeding cattle and the odd milking, plus for me anyway it would nearly be more enjoyable, office jobs wouldnt suit me as i would prefer to be active and moving around not sitting in a chair staring into a computer for 8 hours a day

I would have thought the same previously but i like my office job, handy out tbh and plenty of energy to do a bit of running, gaa, cycling etc in the evening.

TheBoyConor

Ford4life wrote: »

4 years of college though then 2 or 3 years experience before you go out on your own be 30 years old before you start getting anywhere at all plus there isn't 100% security in that, what if there was another crash in the building sector 7 or 8 years of recovery is a long time to be without a job, and I'd be hoping to be heading home to the farm then anyway, making millions isn't my concern, having a job to fall back on if things went to **** in dairy and make a handy living is
Civil engineering would be a good job, but it just wouldn't suit me trying to get into dairy before 30

Generally speaking, you wouldn't be going out on your own as an engineer until you are very experienced. You can't really go out on your own anyway until you're chartered, as until then you are not fully qualified anyway as you can't legally sign off on things that require it. There wouldn't be much work projects you'd be legally qualified and insurable to take on independently.

It is actually very flexible depending on the job you are in. I am working at home, 50 odd miles from my usual place of work. I work the mornings, then do different jobs in the yard until about 5 while it's bright (yesterday I was putting new skylights in the sheds and installing floodlights in the yard, then when it is dark go back and finish out the work hours.

Now, as an engineering technician you probably could go out on your own if you set up the right way. Shorter educational path. It is a much more practical and hands on side of it, if that is where your aptitudes are. I see some have set themselves up in the land and utility surveying sector, getting hired by consultants and utilities or authorities to do different types surveys in advance of doing a projects. That would be a good number too. For the price of an old tractor you could get very good surveying equipment that'll last decades if minded and hire yourself out doing technical surveys. For someone like yourself who likes out and about practical hands on type of jobs, it might be a good fit. You'd have great flexibility too and could do the jobs on your own timetable. Ideal for working around a part time farm. Dunno about milking though.

TheBoyConor

That film by the way is here to rent ..... https://www.volta.ie/#!/browse/film/1948/pilgrim-hill

Siamsa Sessions

In case it's of any use, here's the not-for-profit website I set up while looking into dairy myself: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/home

TheBoyConor

Jjameson wrote: »

That’s very well put together but there’s a lot more..
Will your mammy/daddy/spouse/kids feed the calves, while your milking? Would they Keep an eye on a calving cow, do a few errands?
Will you commit to this marriage to your new enterprise 300 days a year as long as you both shall live?
If you run into a year like 09 12 13 18 have you finances to muddle through?
Do you like all aspects of dairy farming?

Didn't I say previously that this is a far to unreliable thing to factor in to a feasibility exercise? If it happens to turn out that you get that extra help, then it is just a grand little bonus of a help out, but never treat it as something that you can base your numbers off of. Always err on the side of caution with feasibility exercises like this.
Spouse might be minding small kids, or uninterested in it. Children might have no interest or you might have a child with a disability to can't and requires full time care by their mother. Parents could get serious illnesses and be unable to help, or they might just have no interest.

Siamsa Sessions

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Didn't I say previously that this is a far to unreliable thing to factor in to a feasibility exercise? If it happens to turn out that you get that extra help, then it is just a grand little bonus of a help out, but never treat it as something that you can base your numbers off of. Always err on the side of caution with feasibility exercises like this.
Spouse might be minding small kids, or uninterested in it. Children might have no interest or you might have a child with a disability to can't and requires full time care by their mother. Parents could get serious illnesses and be unable to help, or they might just have no interest.

Nail on the head - it's the life outside of dairying itself that's never covered in the media. Someone could have the best figures in the country but at what cost to his/her life outside of farming?

Think back to all that has happened to you in the last two years. I'm not talking about Brexit or covid here. I mean the changes in your own circumstances: health, family, friends moving away, death, etc. You'd have to absorb all that and still milk the cows the following morning.

Apologies if I'm coming across as very negative, but the positivity porn in the media only gives one narrow view of things. The downsides are mostly skimmed over.

TheBoyConor

No you are dead right too.

The media, the likes of the farming independent, Agriland, the IFJ etc are all just propaganda pushers, doing exposés about father and son teams breaking the 1,000, 5,000 and 10,000 cow barriers and how it was all gravy sure. Those are very rare cases and I'm sure there is a lot more going in in the background about how they are paying for it all. And you don't hear any follow up articles about the massive debts that they end up in arrears on or how they couldn't keep water grass in the field in the dry weather, or how the banks are coming the repossess stuff, or about the suicides from fellas going in massively over their heads.

Literally pay no heed to all that Agriland propaganda. I know some responsible for writing a lot of it too.

whelan2

Jjameson wrote: »

There was a trumpet blowing article on a platform some time ago about a chap I know.
The gist of it was he was a new one man new entrant to dairying as his dad had got out of cows years ago while he went landscaping,. Now taking over the farm and powering on to 80 cows,
The truth.
His father was a great farmer, had built up 60 cows by mid 90,s. Son took over and father took early retirement scheme. But still done the work! Son would spend time gomming with machinery and ultimately bought 2 tractors on hire purchase,selling cows and setting land (always parked in view of road as would be his shining jeep)cleared cows and was broker than broke when father started him off again with 40 heifers. He is in his seventies but you wouldn’t pay a man to do all he does.
Not one mention of him in the article.
One man powering on to 80 cows.

But most of us have astute bull**** radars I don’t think many entrants to dairying are that unrealistic.

But going back to your family help point I believe a successful dairy farm has to be a family effort.

I take a lot of those articles with a pinch of salt. I laugh when lads say how wonderful a job they are doing. Them alone, not one other person lifts a finger. No one built up the farm to what it is, only them. They have a halo over their heads.

Bass Reeves

Ford4life wrote: »

Thats true about the office jobs being done more from home, the flexitime side of things would be handy, i'd only be going with the contractor for a few years until i could get going at dairy, 5 years maybe, plus I'd get a lot more useful experience from contractor work or with a farmer that would come in very handy for going into farming, easier to stay fit and healthy doing physical work also, rather than driving all around eating ****e and looking at houses although that job does sound handy, how many years of hardship is there before you do get to that level?

The most.important thing you need when going into farming is to understand it a business. You seem to have a very narrow view of what farming involves. The cheapest man to hire in farming is the idiot sitting on the tractor. It harsh but it is true.

I think you are either very naive or not what you are indicating what you are. By all means follow the path you are thinking we all.need the idiot on the tractor that the contractor pays buttons to.

TheBoyConor

Articles about young fellas an wans of 19 saying that they are running 80 or 100 cows, investing in upgrading facilities with a view to further expansion while simultaneuosly studying for a dregree of some sort in a university. Translation, their daddy does all the donkey work and pays the bills, and while the apple of his eye is away at college and they come back the weekend or odd evening to bollox about with machinery or feed feed a few calves now and then.

K.G.

Jjameson wrote: »

There was a trumpet blowing article on a platform some time ago about a chap I know.
The gist of it was he was a new one man new entrant to dairying as his dad had got out of cows years ago while he went landscaping,. Now taking over the farm and powering on to 80 cows,
The truth.
His father was a great farmer, had built up 60 cows by mid 90,s. Son took over and father took early retirement scheme. But still done the work! Son would spend time gomming with machinery and ultimately bought 2 tractors on hire purchase,selling cows and setting land (always parked in view of road as would be his shining jeep)cleared cows and was broker than broke when father started him off again with 40 heifers. He is in his seventies but you wouldn’t pay a man to do all he does.
Not one mention of him in the article.
One man powering on to 80 cows.

But most of us have astute bull**** radars I don’t think many entrants to dairying are that unrealistic.

But going back to your family help point I believe a successful dairy farm has to be a family effort.

Just referring to my new youtube pet again,creagh farm,his family are a credit to the man.which is more important x number of cows or a family that can stand on their 2 feet

whelan2

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Articles about young fellas an wans of 19 saying that they are running 80 or 100 cows, investing in upgrading facilities with a view to further expansion while simultaneuosly studying for a dregree of some sort in a university. Translation, their daddy does all the donkey work and pays the bills, and while the apple of his eye is away at college and they come back the weekend or odd evening to bollox about with machinery or feed feed a few calves now and then.

And tell the old lad what so and so is doing and he should be doing the same

TheBoyConor

He is some clown that fella. Putting all the ins and outs of the yard and equipment up on youtube and facebook. He's gonna get the place cleaned out some night. They don't need to even case the place because he is showing exactly where everything is. Even shows where the trailer is kept.

His next video will be titled "Gone in 60 seconds"

Kevhog1988

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Articles about young fellas an wans of 19 saying that they are running 80 or 100 cows, investing in upgrading facilities with a view to further expansion while simultaneuosly studying for a dregree of some sort in a university. Translation, their daddy does all the donkey work and pays the bills, and while the apple of his eye is away at college and they come back the weekend or odd evening to bollox about with machinery or feed feed a few calves now and then.

Have you ever read the Thatsfarming stuff. Full of interviews like that lol.

whelan2

whelan2 wrote: »

I take a lot of those articles with a pinch of salt. I laugh when lads say how wonderful a job they are doing. Them alone, not one other person lifts a finger. No one built up the farm to what it is, only them. They have a halo over their heads.

my ould used work for a lad,who wrote for journal,lambing about 1,400 lowland ewes....this lad used claim himself and son used do all the lambing and lost single digit amount of lambs


The father used have to dump a wheelbarrow/linkbox load of lambs,most days

TooOldBoots

I notice that teagasc et al are always pushing dairy. If you look back at all the winners of farmer of the year, young farmer of the year, grassland farmer of the year it's always Dairy farmers that are up for the prise. Most of these so called great farmers are all landed gentry, often in prime land where if you put out canners of cows they would fatten.
You'll never see them promote a new entrant who maybe has to rent out everything and is scraping by,
or a farmer doing something totally different like maybe a bit of food processing.
No instead its get your hands on daddy's land, borrow, borrow, borrow and milk 100 cows
all done sitting next to the stove.

eire23

This thread makes for interesting reading. No big dairy expansion around here. Bar one big herd most herds would be in the 40-50 mark. Compared to 10 years ago their would be less people milking. Anyone with around 40 cows seems to be making a good living of them. Also some posters sound very bitter of lads pushing on expanding.... Or maybe I'm taking them up wrong!

TheBoyConor

Thats Farming, yes, that is another one i was trying to think of.

Oh, absolute spoofery. I known someone who writes for Agriland. Half of it is copy paste jobs and the the other half is stories with the details cherrypicked. Nothing about the repayments or the bank coming looking to take a tractor back. 23 years olds investing €250k in robots and buying land left right and centre. Apparently "dairy experts" at the wise old age of 20, and all that lark.

Same writer incessantly on social media with pictures about cattle and cows sales, purebreds, marts etc. I have yet to see a post of her forking silage into cows or pulling tyres off a pit on a rainy day. Spoof artist of the highest order.

Kevhog1988

eire23 wrote: »

This thread makes for interesting reading. No big dairy expansion around here. Bar one big herd most herds would be in the 40-50 mark. Compared to 10 years ago their would be less people milking. Anyone with around 40 cows seems to be making a good living of them. Also some posters sound very bitter of lads pushing on expanding.... Or maybe I'm taking them up wrong!

I would have taken them up as they were trying to get across to the young lad that the ecenomics of what he is trying/wanting to do probably dont make sense.

eire23

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

I would have taken them up as they were trying to get across to the young lad that the ecenomics of what he is trying/wanting to do probably dont make sense.

The majority are doing that. I'm only on about one or two posters that seem to have a axe to grind.

Kevhog1988

eire23 wrote: »

The majority are doing that. I'm only on about one or two posters that seem to have a axe to grind.

Youll get them sort of people everywhere though. The op also seems to think having any sort of debt on a place is madness. You have to spend money to make money makes sense in some instances

Ford4life

Kevhog1988 wrote: »

I would have thought the same previously but i like my office job, handy out tbh and plenty of energy to do a bit of running, gaa, cycling etc in the evening.

Im not a big fan of sitting at a computer screen all day, doing it atm for online classes for the leaving, maybe its just that i dont enjoy school, if i did find an office job that i liked then that might make a huge difference, on the work from home thing also someone mentioned at the moment thats not possible on my internet, in 40 minute meetings it tends to drop out atleast once and theres no plans to get broadband in my area

Ford4life

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Generally speaking, you wouldn't be going out on your own as an engineer until you are very experienced. You can't really go out on your own anyway until you're chartered, as until then you are not fully qualified anyway as you can't legally sign off on things that require it. There wouldn't be much work projects you'd be legally qualified and insurable to take on independently.

It is actually very flexible depending on the job you are in. I am working at home, 50 odd miles from my usual place of work. I work the mornings, then do different jobs in the yard until about 5 while it's bright (yesterday I was putting new skylights in the sheds and installing floodlights in the yard, then when it is dark go back and finish out the work hours.

Now, as an engineering technician you probably could go out on your own if you set up the right way. Shorter educational path. It is a much more practical and hands on side of it, if that is where your aptitudes are. I see some have set themselves up in the land and utility surveying sector, getting hired by consultants and utilities or authorities to do different types surveys in advance of doing a projects. That would be a good number too. For the price of an old tractor you could get very good surveying equipment that'll last decades if minded and hire yourself out doing technical surveys. For someone like yourself who likes out and about practical hands on type of jobs, it might be a good fit. You'd have great flexibility too and could do the jobs on your own timetable. Ideal for working around a part time farm. Dunno about milking though.

Thats what i mean about going out as an engineer, even at 30 years old you wouldnt be fully qualified for it, engineering technician does sound more up my street, thats handy that you can work outside during the day and do the engineering work then when its dark

Ford4life

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That film by the way is here to rent ..... https://www.volta.ie/#!/browse/film/1948/pilgrim-hill

Sound, ill watch it there tonight if i have time

Ford4life

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

In case it's of any use, here's the not-for-profit website I set up while looking into dairy myself: https://sites.google.com/view/dairyconversion/home

Will do that straight away, thanks very much
Edit: Result was good!
Great website and some of those questions really made me think.

K.G.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

He is some clown that fella. Putting all the ins and outs of the yard and equipment up on youtube and facebook. He's gonna get the place cleaned out some night. They don't need to even case the place because he is showing exactly where everything is. Even shows where the trailer is kept.

His next video will be titled "Gone in 60 seconds"

I dont mean this in any disparaging way but there isnt alot to take,everything is kept going and not alot of stuff that anybody else would have much value in

Ford4life

Jjameson wrote: »

That’s very well put together but there’s a lot more..
Will your mammy/daddy/spouse/kids feed the calves, while your milking? Would they Keep an eye on a calving cow, do a few errands?
Will you commit to this marriage to your new enterprise 300 days a year as long as you both shall live?
If you run into a year like 09 12 13 18 have you finances to muddle through?
Do you like all aspects of dairy farming?

I would feed the calves myself, whole milk more than likely but mixing milk replacer wouldnt be the end of the world already rearing dairy-beef calves at home myself so realise the work that goes into them. Father or maybe even the sister could do it, but i would plan to not rely on anyone else for labour, father would keep an eye on the cows for me if i couldnt do i, any of them would do a few errands for me.
I do.
I would be able to make it through alright, budgeted for a 31c (Which is the minimum in local coop, thats for 3.3 P and 3.6% BF, fleckveih would be around 3.6/3.7 P and 4.1 BF so should be around 35c anyway) milk price and ended with a rough income of 62,400 with 24 cows at the start and their 9 month old calves sold in mart, Rough costings of around 40,000 (some of these were a bit inflated but not by much) including 10,000 to bank to pay off parlour, if the milk price dropped to 19c like it did before I'd make it through just about but once can keep the bills paid thats the important thing.
I'd be in a lot better of a position than the fellas with a couple hundred thousand out from the banks when a 1c drop in milk price could be the difference between them eating or not

Ford4life

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

Nail on the head - it's the life outside of dairying itself that's never covered in the media. Someone could have the best figures in the country but at what cost to his/her life outside of farming?

Think back to all that has happened to you in the last two years. I'm not talking about Brexit or covid here. I mean the changes in your own circumstances: health, family, friends moving away, death, etc. You'd have to absorb all that and still milk the cows the following morning.

Apologies if I'm coming across as very negative, but the positivity porn in the media only gives one narrow view of things. The downsides are mostly skimmed over.

You are dead right, no matter what happens cows still have to be milked, planning to go away for wedding etc have to get someone to relief milk etc, they show the sunshine and rainbows side of things and ignore the harsh reality of it, calves and cows can die and thats the reality of it
Seen an article of a fella planning to be milking 1000 cows by the time hes 40, more power to him but i dont think any person could manage that