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16 family members given vaccine

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    #482
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    manonboard wrote: »
    wouldnt this mean they are keeping 100 health care workers or extremely vulnerable people tied up? on the statistically likely chance that most of them wont get it.

    I know a nurse that got a phone call an hour before her appointment that they were out of vaccines and she could have an other appointment later on in the week.

    When she was vaccinated a few days later she asked and was told they are overbooking.

    The people aren't being tied up. They are being given a slot at the end of the day and if they get through the vaccine before they are being cancelled on.

    IMO its hard to say wha the best approach is.


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    #483
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    This was the 8th yes? So the 6th dose was still a recommendation, so they had no Guarentee of the extra doses, and they were only going to know when they extracted them. Even if they did it in batches and pulled 120 extra doses each time, there was no guarentee of numbers, that's why it was short notice.......

    The type of needle i.e volume and dead volume used is the deterministic factor in this. Pfizer issued clear guidelines on it.


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    #484
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Sorry for the smart a££ question but what I'm saying is that they should have known there was more doses. This is dependent on the type of delivery system used.

    Why does it have to be short notice? Where is the back up list? You don't have to operate against a ticking clock of having to give the vaccine to relatives.

    They did know and they contacted the HSE to say they had 120 doses extra, who called local GPs and community healthcare workers and then left the staff to call around - that process got them another 104 people which left 16 doses available.

    What do you suggest they should have done with these 16 shots ?


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    #485
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Anyone know if contract cleaning workers are considered front line?

    I'll assume porters are.


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    #486
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    I know a nurse that got a phone call an hour before her appointment that they were out of vaccines and she could have an other appointment later on in the week.

    When she was vaccinated a few days later she asked and was told they are overbooking.

    The people aren't being tied up. They are being given a slot at the end of the day and if they get through the vaccine before they are being cancelled on.

    Indeed and I know plenty working in a nearby Dublin hospital that were told the same thing. There's more to this story that will be revealed.


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    #487
    Mrsmum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,860 ✭✭✭Mrsmum


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    So once they'd used their allocated vaccines, and then 104 of the additional doses, how would you have dispensed 16 doses that would have otherwise been binned?

    As clear as you can make it.

    Absolutely no way should his sons have gotten the vaccines in those circumstances. They cannot have been the only options. Personally I would think invite members of the local Garda station, firemen, local GP, local taximen, anyone other than relatives. You'd have alot of work to do to convince me they were the only options. And he now accepts that himself, as he should.


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    #488
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    There should have been a list, a back up allocation list, a functional IT platform and in the case that didn't exist they should have avoided giving it to their own children as it puts the fairness of the system in disrepute.

    It was still 9.30pm on a Friday, people can't drop everything on a minutes notice, the fact that they got 86% of the extra vaccines into frontline workers arms on such short notice should be the story we're focusing on.....


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    #489
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Russman wrote: »
    They did know and they contacted the HSE to say they had 120 doses extra, who called local GPs and community healthcare workers and then left the staff to call around - that process got them another 104 people which left 16 doses available.

    What do you suggest they should have done with these 16 shots ?

    Why did they not have a back up list? Who is now next in line? Was that always meant to be guesswork?


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    #490
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,978 ✭✭✭kirving


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    The vaccine can't travel once diluted, and how do you pick which residents get the vaccines?

    Does the vaccine get car sick or something?
    hynesie08 wrote: »
    I often go for night time walks with a copy of my full medical history and a recent covid test......

    That's a complete red herring. I got a flu vaccine recently. I didn't need either of those.


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    #491
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    I've been critical about some aspects of the rollout so far, and in particular what guidelines were on hand for hospitals from the HSE on what to do with spare doses while there were people who urgently needed the vaccine.

    On this occasion, where there were no guidelines offered to hospital managers and they made a genuine effort to redistribute most of the 104 doses, I cannot really fault anyone here except the NIAC committee who should have prepared the vaccination teams better.

    This situation is unfortunate and the optics are not great, but at 9.30pm after frantically looking for GPs and community nurses to be vaccinated... I'm just glad 16 doses weren't binned.


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    #492
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    It was still 9.30pm on a Friday, people can't drop everything on a minutes notice, the fact that they got 86% of the extra vaccines into frontline workers arms on such short notice should be the story we're focusing on.....

    Are we in agreement they should have had a back up list?


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    #493
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 32,717 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    Russman wrote: »
    They did know and they contacted the HSE to say they had 120 doses extra, who called local GPs and community healthcare workers and then left the staff to call around - that process got them another 104 people which left 16 doses available.

    What do you suggest they should have done with these 16 shots ?

    Someone suggesting dragging random people off the street...lol...never mind them having their medical records etc while out for a nighttime stroll around the Coombe...


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    #494
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Are we in agreement they should have had a back up list?

    I've never said they shouldn't, that's a bigger hse issue though....


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    #495
    RugbyLad11
    Registered Users Posts: 547 ✭✭✭RugbyLad11


    The thing is that this story was leaked so there must be staff in that hospital who were unhappy was this.


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    #496
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    RugbyLad11 wrote: »
    The thing is that this story was leaked so there must be staff in that hospital who were unhappy was this.

    Exactly. I expect more to be leaked.


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    #497
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Padre_Pio wrote: »
    Of the 16, 9 were over 70.
    Absolutely no problem with vaccines getting used.

    They should get their second dose in 3 weeks, probably around the time they were due the first dose.

    Not on the list and unlikely there will ever be a surplus again, September would be the likely time


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    #498
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Kevin Irving wrote: »
    Does the vaccine get car sick or something?

    A batch in Germany had to be thrown out after being carried upstairs, so maybe.
    That's a complete red herring. I got a flu vaccine recently. I didn't need either of those.

    You got a flu jab walking down the street? Or did you have to make an appointment with your gp?


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    #499
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Mrsmum wrote: »
    Absolutely no way should his sons have gotten the vaccines in those circumstances. They cannot have been the only options. Personally I would think invite members of the local Garda station, firemen, local GP, local taximen, anyone other than relatives. You'd have alot of work to do to convince me they were the only options. And he now accepts that himself, as he should.

    How do you choose between the Garda and the fireman ? See where that could lead to....?

    The clock was ticking, apparently they had an hour to go, at some point a decision had to be made and it was. I totally agree it looks bad with his adult kids getting it, but FFS what would people want him to do ?


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    #500
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,545 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Russman wrote: »
    but FFS what would people want him to do ?

    Not give it to his kids for a start.


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    #501
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    So once they'd used their allocated vaccines, and then 104 of the additional doses, how would you have dispensed 16 doses that would have otherwise been binned?

    As clear as you can make it.

    Hundreds of options would come to mind before I would consider bringing in The Masters children.

    Let's start with all patients and staff in ER at the time. Do you have an issue with this? As clear as you can make it.


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    #502
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Russman wrote: »
    How do you choose between the Garda and the fireman ? See where that could lead to....?

    The clock was ticking, apparently they had an hour to go, at some point a decision had to be made and it was. I totally agree it looks bad with his adult kids getting it, but FFS what would people want him to do ?

    Imagine being an on duty garda arriving back to the station after a bad shift, to see the desk sergeant smiling from ear to ear because he got jabbed on his lunch because he answered the phone. That'd be great for morale.....


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    #503
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,545 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Russman wrote: »
    How do you choose between the Garda and the fireman ? See where that could lead to....?

    The clock was ticking, apparently they had an hour to go, at some point a decision had to be made and it was. I totally agree it looks bad with his adult kids getting it, but FFS what would people want him to do ?

    How did they choose between the last 16 people? Was it friends of friends, was it family of staff that nagged him senseless. God only knows.


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    #504
    McFly85
    Registered Users Posts: 3,068 ✭✭✭McFly85


    You'd really have to work hard to find something here to be outraged about.

    I can see that it looks bad for the children of the master to have gotten some of the extra vaccines, but it sounds likely that these would have gone to waste anyway. Also it looks like every effort was made to find additional frontline workers to vaccinate before they had those last 16 left. For people saying there would have been nearby facilities who could have had use for them-it would have required the Coombe to contact the HSE(I believe they did notify them about the surplus) or any other facilities directly, who would then have to go and find staff that were available and not currently working that could possibly go for it, and then sending that info back to the coombe- it's entirely realistic to think that by the time all that would have happened the extras could have expired.

    Ultimately it looks like a judgement call was made to ensure the vaccines were used rather than wasted, which is fair enough. It's certainly not evidence of mass corruption or some conspiracy by doctors to get their families up the queue.

    I would also say that its not as likely to happen again, as I believe by now with pre-booking now live and a better understanding of doses required there's probably less of a chance of spares. If someone misses their appointment however I have no issue with giving it to somebody nearby instead of wasting it.


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    #505
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Melanchthon wrote: »
    I don't think it could be unless they consider themselves incapable of delivering the doses within 4/5 days of delivery which in itself would be an indictment. See the attached document from the CDC/Pfizer

    Even worse is the Drogheda thing, that's a short drive up the motorway

    https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/info-by-product/pfizer/downloads/storage-summary.pdf

    Although the vaccine cannot be transported, staff can go to where vaccine surplus might be. The consultant from OLOH raised the same point I made over a week ago, if you are to bring the Pfizer vaccine to an acute hospital and set up the logistics nationwide already, could there have been greater focus on those in areas with the highest covid prevalence? By now most of priority 1 and 2 has gotten their first dose somehow, and it's becoming an issue in the past day by day.


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    #506
    kirving
    Registered Users Posts: 5,978 ✭✭✭kirving


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    A batch in Germany had to be thrown out after being carried upstairs, so maybe.

    You got a flu jab walking down the street? Or did you have to make an appointment with your gp?

    It was a mass vaccination in work, with hundreds of people in a day. Absolutely no need for full medical history or recent test as suggested.


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    #507
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Why did they not have a back up list? Who is now next in line? Was that always meant to be guesswork?

    I don't know why they didn't. Maybe the list was 104 people long, who knows.
    Saying what they should have had ready doesn't answer what he should have done at that moment in time. Someone mentioned earlier that the IT booking system only went live the next day so possibly (and IMO the most likely answer) its just one of those unfortunate timing issues.


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    #508
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    I've never said they shouldn't, that's a bigger hse issue though....

    Last Thursday Colm Henry said they were strengthening guidance to hospitals on what to do with left over doses.

    This feels very much old news.


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    #509
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Hundreds of options would come to mind before I would consider bringing in The Masters children.

    Let's start with all patients and staff in ER at the time. Do you have an issue with this? As clear as you can make it.

    In a maternity hospital ?


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    #510
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Kimbot wrote: »
    Not give it to his kids for a start.

    Ok, then who ?


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    #511
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    GhostyMcGhost wrote: »
    And the vaccines were otherwise gone to waste. For once someone was trying to be proactive and use every single dose available in some way and avoid waste

    The headline could make for great click bait but in the circumstances I have to agree, give the vaccine to someone if there’s a few left over. Of course you now need to find 16 second doses for those people

    The bigger scandal would be throwing perfectly good vaccines in the bin. At the time there was no way to contact anyone on a waiting list and the HSE basically were clueless what to do

    There's at least one nursing home very close by whose front line staff would have gratefully received it. All it would have taken is a little forethought and planning to set up a standby contact list, and then indeed if there could not be sufficient within the requisite time, bring in the family members to absorb the vaccine. They should have set up WhatsApp groups.


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