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16 family members given vaccine

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    #512
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Hundreds of options would come to mind before I would consider bringing in The Masters children.

    Let's start with all patients and staff in ER at the time. Do you have an issue with this? As clear as you can make it.

    Think some people might need to think about their position, cant see there being much respect left for the master


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    #513
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    There's another issue being ignored here. You have the receive the second vaccine dose within four weeks time to maximise efficacy. This means that the 16 people, including the master's children will have now have to further deprive those more deserving of the vaccine. when they get the second dose.

    It isn't just one dose that has to be considered. Now they have to effect the second set of vaccinations if a list is made by then.


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    #514
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Russman wrote: »
    Ok, then who ?

    Ireland amazes me sometimes. People genuinely can't see any front line staff more deserving than the young children of the head of a hospital.


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    #515
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Hundreds of options would come to mind before I would consider bringing in The Masters children.

    Let's start with all patients and staff in ER at the time. Do you have an issue with this? As clear as you can make it.

    There were 1200 vaccinations done at this point, you think the ER staff weren't vaccinated first?

    Were there 16 people in the ER who qualify? Cause most of them in the coombe would barely be 18 days old, let alone years?


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    #516
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Think some people might need to think about their position, cant see there being much respect left for the master

    It looks especially bad for him, and probably the reason that somebody leaked this. Folks wouldn't have paid much attention to a nurse's frail mother that she's living with, getting it or something like that.


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    #517
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »
    Last Thursday Colm Henry said they were strengthening guidance to hospitals on what to do with left over doses.

    This feels very much old news.
    This non-public guidance was released after 8th January, surely the fact that there wasn't guidance before that was a mistake by the HSE/NIAC? As I argued last Thursday in another thread.


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    #518
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Russman wrote: »
    In a maternity hospital ?

    Do you want me to use Google for you?


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    #519
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There's at least one nursing home very close by whose front line staff would have gratefully received it. All it would have taken is a little forethought and planning to set up a standby contact list, and then indeed if there could not be sufficient within the requisite time, bring in the family members to absorb the vaccine. They should have set up WhatsApp groups.

    Ring them and say "pick your favourite 16 staff and get them here within the hour, the oldies will be fine for a few hours" ?


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    #520
    hynesie08
    Registered Users Posts: 9,771 ✭✭✭hynesie08


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Ireland amazes me sometimes. People genuinely can't see any front line staff more deserving than the young children of the head of a hospital.

    I can think of thousands, not sure how a short shelf life vaccine that's already been drawn in Crumlin is any use to the staff in nenagh or a gp in dundalk


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    #521
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Do you want me to use Google for you?

    I don't really care, Google away if you want.


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    #522
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    hynesie08 wrote: »
    I can think of thousands, not sure how a short shelf life vaccine that's already been drawn in Crumlin is any use to the staff in nenagh or a gp in dundalk

    You have two hours to dilute it following removal from the freezer. Following that you have another 6 hours. I don't believe that his two young children were more deserving or more contactable than anyone else or higher priority.


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    #523
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Ireland amazes me sometimes. People genuinely can't see any front line staff more deserving than the young children of the head of a hospital.

    Seriously did you read the story at all ?
    They tried, with the HSE, to get as many as they could, they got 104. What lengths do you want them to go to for 16 jabs ?
    I'd feel totally different if no effort was made etc, but its seems in this case they genuinely tried to do their best at very short notice.


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    #524
    Wombatman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,337 ✭✭✭Wombatman


    Russman wrote: »
    I don't really care, Google away if you want.

    Here is the search term "Coombe Hospital Emergency Room". Just stick it into Google.


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    #525
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭Christy42


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Are we in agreement they should have had a back up list?

    Where do you think they got the first 104 from?


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    #526
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    plodder wrote: »
    Why would they be on day 5? I'd say it was day 1 or 2 at the latest. The super cold freezers are in the Dublin area somewhere.

    I think if they haven't already, the HSE needs to come up with a system that fills gaps like this and can schedule appointments at short notice, eg the following day. They actually did well to find 100 people for the same day, if there isn't a proper system in place

    Why would they not be on day 5? They have to be taken out at some stage, they its unrealistic to assume they get taken out just in time to be used.

    They had 1 hour to find people, after alreading finding over 100 people who weren't on the list.


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    #527
    McFly85
    Registered Users Posts: 3,067 ✭✭✭McFly85


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Ireland amazes me sometimes. People genuinely can't see any front line staff more deserving than the young children of the head of a hospital.

    Everyone agrees that front line staff should be prioritised. A lot of people also think that it's entirely possible that the hospital made every effort to find front line staff that would be available before the batch expired, and decided not to waste the last of it.


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    #528
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Russman wrote: »
    Seriously did you read the story at all ?
    They tried, with the HSE, to get as many as they could, they got 104. What lengths do you want them to go to for 16 jabs ?
    I'd feel totally different if no effort was made etc, but its seems in this case they genuinely tried to do their best at very short notice.
    Why did the Master of the Coombe apologise then ? He said he realised it was a mistake ??


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    #529
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    There's another issue being ignored here. You have the receive the second vaccine dose within four weeks time to maximise efficacy. This means that the 16 people, including the master's children will have now have to further deprive those more deserving of the vaccine. when they get the second dose.

    It isn't just one dose that has to be considered. Now they have to effect the second set of vaccinations if a list is made by then.

    9 of them were over 70, so they were already due to get their first dose in the near future. 2 were HSE staff, so similar. So... Five doses will shuffle around and we'll get 120 people fully dosed way faster than they otherwise would have been.

    We're arguing over 5 doses from 1100+ mass vaccination, that didn’t even exist on paper before the planned dosings were done.

    This is exactly the thinking we've been warned about by experiences elsewhere, getting so bogged down in the idea of everybody getting dosed in their precise formal order that the overall speed of the rollout gets lost, Israel's attitude to vaccination vs California's.


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    #530
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,161 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    You have two hours to dilute it following removal from the freezer. Following that you have another 6 hours. I don't believe that his two young children were more deserving or more contactable than anyone else or higher priority.

    Can you give us the list of people who, within an hour and with no consent issues you could have materialized?


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    #531
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    lucernarian wrote: »
    This non-public guidance was released after 8th January, surely the fact that there wasn't guidance before that was a mistake by the HSE/NIAC? As I argued last Thursday in another thread.

    Absolutely. Should have been a strict protocol for use of spare vaccine, especially considering it involves a second dose. A list of potential trial people who might take up the extra vaccine. And a record of contact that was initiated to recruit extras for vaccine: name, address, date & time of contact, place of employment & job. Would stand as to whom was considered in what order.


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    #532
    Amirani
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,523 Mod ✭✭✭✭Amirani


    Wombatman wrote: »
    Here is the search term "Coombe Hospital Emergency Room". Just stick it into Google.

    "Hang on, I know you are in the middle of an emergency and your health or the health of your baby maybe in imminent danger, but let me just jump in here and vaccinate you with a vaccine that hasn't been trialed on pregnant women yet."

    Sorted.


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    #533
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Russman wrote: »
    Seriously did you read the story at all ?
    They tried, with the HSE, to get as many as they could, they got 104. What lengths do you want them to go to for 16 jabs ?
    I'd feel totally different if no effort was made etc, but its seems in this case they genuinely tried to do their best at very short notice.

    I'm blaming the HSE as a whole. Why did the HSE provide no support, why was there no back up list. It's complete incompetence.


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    #534
    Russman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,876 ✭✭✭Russman


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    Why did the Master of the Coombe apologise then ? He said he realised it was a mistake ??

    Probably a combination of appeasing the baying mob and because it looks bad. I fully agree it looks bad, he should absolutely have known how it would appear.


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    #535
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Absolutely. Should have been a strict protocol for use of spare vaccine, especially considering it involves a second dose. A list of potential trial people who might take up the extra vaccine. And a record of contact that was initiated to recruit extras for vaccine: name, address, date & time of contact, place of employment & job. Would stand as to whom was considered in what order.

    The fact you need to state this is very worrying. The first thing you do in cases of vaccinations is devise a strict protocol.


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    #536
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Can you give us the list of people who, within an hour and with no consent issues you could have materialized?

    I wouldn't have to because when I worked in a hospital we had a list.


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    #537
    Kimbot
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 18,545 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kimbot


    Russman wrote: »
    Ok, then who ?

    Theres thousands of front line workers waiting for a vaccine, how about trying any number of them for a start.

    At the end of the day all of us have given up the last year essentially to Protect our health system and our most vulnerable in society from covid. So priority should be given to the health system and the most vulnerable so hospitals dont get over run and we can all start getting back to our lives so out of thousands upon thousands of people that fall into those groups they had plenty of scope to get people in the door for it if they actually prepared correctly.


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    #538
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,133 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    Russman wrote: »
    Probably a combination of appeasing the baying mob and because it looks bad. I fully agree it looks bad, he should absolutely have known how it would appear.

    Regardless of the issue and however one sees it the fact it was given to the Masters kids was never going to go down well


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    #539
    revelman
    Registered Users Posts: 980 ✭✭✭revelman


    McFly85 wrote: »
    You'd really have to work hard to find something here to be outraged about.

    Normally I’m irritated by all these people who are outraged about everything. But, to me at least, this feels somewhat different, especially because there are so many unanswered questions. Two children of the hospital’s Master happen to receive this vaccine. One of the children is in college according to the Irish Times so I’m assuming that they are young and therefore relatively low risk in any case. The unanswered questions are:

    Was it really the case that nobody more high risk could be found at short notice? Were the remaining recipients also related the senior management? Had all other staff in the hospital (including porters, cleaning staff etc) already been vaccinated? I think it is important to know the answers to these questions. The optics of this are terrible and look like the sort of thing you see going on in dodgy countries elsewhere in the world.

    At the same time, the Master has apologised and clearly regards this as a mistake. So I don’t think he needs to be demonised. Everyone makes mistakes and these people are working in a stressful, high pressurised environment. What is positive is that we will now likely see a more robust HSE policy emerging as to what should happen in the future in situations like this.


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    #540
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,972 ✭✭✭Christy42


    Kimbot wrote: »
    Theres thousands of front line workers waiting for a vaccine, how about trying any number of them for a start.

    At the end of the day all of us have given up the last year essentially to Protect our health system and our most vulnerable in society from covid. So priority should be given to the health system and the most vulnerable so hospitals dont get over run and we can all start getting back to our lives so out of thousands upon thousands of people that fall into those groups they had plenty of scope to get people in the door for it if they actually prepared correctly.

    They did. They got 104 of them in on relatively short notice. Indeed who knows at what point they copped they weren't going to get the full 120 from front line workers.


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    #541
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,431 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    gmisk wrote: »
    Someone suggesting dragging random people off the street...lol...never mind them having their medical records etc while out for a nighttime stroll around the Coombe...




    It's a big hospital that would have had plenty of staff on site. Given that all of them are probably not in the high priority group, I'll have to assume that not all of them were already vaccinated, so perhaps some of them could have been offered it?


    Cleaners/security/kitchen/admin/etc?


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