16 family members given vaccine

odyssey06

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Optics definitely is dreadful, but Israel have a process whereby end of the day excess is offered to a first come first served, makes a lot of sense

They've a lot more vaccines than we do.
The problem here is that the people who got the 'spares' \ 'leftovers' now need to be given an appointment to guarantee they get their second dose, as far as I understand.
So they've skipped the queue and potentially delayed someone higher up the list.
As these were 'spare' doses, I think they should have been left to waste rather than commit us to that second dose for non-priority randomers i.e. anyone lower than priority 6 or 10 maybe.

steddyeddy

odyssey06 wrote: »

They've a lot more vaccines than we do.
The problem here is that the people who got the 'spares' \ 'leftovers' now need to be given an appointment to guarantee they get their second dose, as far as I understand.
So they've skipped the queue and potentially delayed someone higher up the list.
As these were 'spare' doses, I think they should have been left to waste rather than commit us to that second dose for non-priority randomers i.e. anyone lower than priority 6 or 10 maybe.

That's if they had to be left to waste. Hospitals in the UK had care homes on standby.

davetherave

eviltwin wrote: »

How are hospitals in a position that they have spare vaccines in the first place? Is there not a system in place to ensure they only get what they need when they need it?

Its ridiculous to think any facility would be in a position that they have left overs that might be binned, its far better that someone get them than have them go to waste but they should have only been given what they needed.

This all happened two weeks ago. The manufacturer are saying that the vials, once diluted, contain at least 5 doses of 0.3ml. To ensure that there is at least 5 doses the are overfilled. This allows for different needle gauges, drop spillages etc. At the time using a vial to get six doses was not approved. That has since been changed.

You have 100 vials that the vaccine manufacturer state contains five doses, that means you can jab 500 people. You are left with some over, what do you do with it? There are now systems in place.

AndyBoBandy

mariaalice wrote: »

Do you have any evidence of this happening in Ireland? The media would be having a field day.

Denis O'Briens media?

steddyeddy

davetherave wrote: »

This all happened two weeks ago. The manufacturer are saying that the vials, once diluted, contain at least 5 doses of 0.3ml. To ensure that there is at least 5 doses the are overfilled. This allows for different needle gauges, drop spillages etc. At the time using a vial to get six doses was not approved. That has since been changed.

You have 100 vials that the vaccine manufacturer state contains five doses, that means you can jab 500 people. You are left with some over, what do you do with it? There are now systems in place.

It takes a spectacular level of incompetence to start without a system in place. There are systems in place for seasonal flu jabs.

Christy42

hynesie08 wrote: »

It's been well established that once mixed, the vaccine doesn't travel.

And how do you pick which gardai get the vaccine? Why are the ones at their desk more important than the ones on the beat?

Well to be fair. Just pick some of them. Presumably what they did with the 16 anyway. The ones at the desk are not more important but you have to start somewhere and if you are on a clock you have to go with what is available. Some is better than none.

However it all depends on whether the Garda Station was in fact contacted. We're they part of the 104 and how many people they could spare to send over and take the vaccine.

odyssey06

steddyeddy wrote: »

That's if they had to be left to waste. Hospitals in the UK had care homes on standby.

Yep for sure, and the standby list could run to priority group 6, say.

But as a last resort we shouldn't give a spare to someone in priority group 14 who then has to get a second dose - when we haven't even started properly on group 3 yet.

bucketybuck

There are options between "give it to my kids" and "throw it in the bin".

Unfortunately it seems that planning is hard, and systems are complicated, so despite this being the most important thing in the entire country right now all we can do is shrug our shoulders and accept that there was nothing else they could have done.

Sofa King Great

Lots of excuses that it was early January and the early days of the rollout. It might have been the early days of the rollout but it was known that vaccinations would be coming for a couple of months and hoped for a longer time before that.

To not have the systems in place in time for the vaccine approval speaks to a level of incompetence that shouldn't be accepted

plodder

bucketybuck wrote: »

There are options between "give it to my kids" and "throw it in the bin".

Unfortunately it seems that planning is hard, and systems are complicated, so despite this being the most important thing in the entire country right now all we can do is shrug our shoulders and accept that there was nothing else they could have done.

In fairness, the only people justifying it are anonymous posters here. The master of the Coombe has apologised. A former master, several government ministers have all clearly said it's not acceptable.

Sofa King Great

Sofa King Great wrote: »

Lots of excuses that it was early January and the early days of the rollout. It might have been the early days of the rollout but it was known that vaccinations would be coming for a couple of months and hoped for a longer time before that.

To not have the systems in place in time for the vaccine approval speaks to a level of incompetence that shouldn't be accepted

I've just been listening to Pat Kenny interviewing health correspondents in Germany, Spain and Italy. ALL of those countries had issues and teething problems initially with the rolling out of the vaccine. ALL of them had stories similar to ours. Part of Germany were vaccinated far quicker than others as Germany is a federal republic with individual states. Germany also bought a massive private supply of the vaccine, outside of the agreed EU protocol! That is a far bigger issue than 16 spare vials of vaccine actually being used here in Ireland!

The incident here happened 2 weeks ago and involved 16 spare doses, not 1600 or 16,000. We need to get over it and move on. Such a fuss about nothing. Be glad the vaccine is here and roll out has been ramped up with the arrival of the Moderna vaccine. There is enough other stuff going on. Foaming at the mouth about 16 spare vaccines that were used rather than being binned, (BEFORE protocols for spare vaccines were even given to hospitals by the HSE!!), is nonsensical.

Lessons have been learnt, move on.

odyssey06

Deleted User wrote: »

I've just been listening to Pat Kenny interviewing health correspondents in Germany, Spain and Italy. ALL of those countries had issues and teething problems initially with the rolling out of the vaccine. ALL of them had stories similar to ours. Part of Germany were vaccinated far quicker than others as Germany is a federal republic with individual states. Germany also bought a massive private supply of the vaccine, outside of the agreed EU protocol! That is a far bigger issue than 16 spare vials of vaccine actually being used here in Ireland!
The incident here happened 2 weeks ago and involved 16 spare doses, not 1600 or 16,000. We need to get over it and move on. Such a fuss about nothing. Be glad the vaccine is here and roll out has been ramped up with the arrival of the Moderna vaccine. There is enough other stuff going on. Foaming at the mouth about 16 spare vaccines that were used rather than being binned, (BEFORE protocols for spare vaccines were even given to hospitals by the HSE!!), is nonsensical.

Lessons have been learnt, move on.

Your attempt at whataboutery is a pretty obvious attempt at deflection.
People can be concerned about these actions and concerned about other aspects of the rollout.

So returning to the topic at hand = these are just ones we know about.
Nobody is foaming at the mouth.
But nepotism and favouritism stinks and should not be tolerated, and objecting to it is not nonsensical. Nobody should need a system to tell them that if any position of serious responsibility.
We need transparent efficient systems that are not just trustworthy, but seen to be.

The spare vaccines that were used now obligate the use of further vaccines on low priority recipients while many higher priority recipients haven't received any. There are consequences.

steddyeddy

Deleted User wrote: »

I've just been listening to Pat Kenny interviewing health correspondents in Germany, Spain and Italy. ALL of those countries had issues and teething problems initially with the rolling out of the vaccine. ALL of them had stories similar to ours. Part of Germany were vaccinated far quicker than others as Germany is a federal republic with individual states. Germany also bought a massive private supply of the vaccine, outside of the agreed EU protocol! That is a far bigger issue than 16 spare vials of vaccine actually being used here in Ireland!

The incident here happened 2 weeks ago and involved 16 spare doses, not 1600 or 16,000. We need to get over it and move on. Such a fuss about nothing. Be glad the vaccine is here and roll out has been ramped up with the arrival of the Moderna vaccine. There is enough other stuff going on. Foaming at the mouth about 16 spare vaccines that were used rather than being binned, (BEFORE protocols for spare vaccines were even given to hospitals by the HSE!!), is nonsensical.

Lessons have been learnt, move on.

These problems have been going on in the HSE for decades. The cervical scandal for instance. It's nothing new and this will continue as long as people keep saying grand.

steddyeddy

odyssey06 wrote: »

Your attempt at whataboutery is a pretty obvious attempt at deflection.
People can be concerned about these actions and concerned about other aspects of the rollout.

So returning to the topic at hand = these are just ones we know about.
Nobody is foaming at the mouth.
But nepotism and favouritism stinks and should not be tolerated, and objecting to it is not nonsensical. Nobody should need a system to tell them that if any position of serious responsibility.
We need transparent efficient systems that are not just trustworthy, but seen to be.

The spare vaccines that were used now obligate the use of further vaccines on low priority recipients while many higher priority recipients haven't received any. There are consequences.

Nepotism has been going on for decades in the HSE. It's one of the primary causes of waste IMO.

mariaalice

steddyeddy wrote: »

These problems have been going on in the HSE for decades. The cervical scandal for instance. It's nothing new and this will continue as long as people keep saying grand.

Absolute nonsense comparing the two-issue.

Russman

steddyeddy wrote: »

It takes a spectacular level of incompetence to start without a system in place. There are systems in place for seasonal flu jabs.

Should they have waited until they had a system in place before starting then ?
Apparently the booking system went live the next day (I assume 9th) - can you imagine the whining if they had held off vaccinating until then, with doses in the country ?
Of course the system should have been up and running before then, but it wasn't, they had to deal with the hear and now, at that moment.
They managed to get 104 additional people from somewhere, late on a Friday night, before they got to the last 16. They arguably came up with 14 more before they got to the boss' son FFS. How long should a backup list be ?
I fully agree it looks bad and evokes memories of a wink and a nod, but if I'm after that kind of corruption I can think of far better examples to go after than this. This story, in its totality, really seems to me like they did their best to do the right thing, they contacted the HSE, they called and rounded up who they could and when they had no other option they did what they did to administer those last 16 shots. The booking system wasn't live at that point. Its really not as simple as "boss' son skips queue". Suggestions that they call into the local Lidl or firestation are just off the wall mental. They went through the proper channels and found themselves in the situation that hopefully can't arise now.

Wanderer78

odyssey06 wrote: »

They've a lot more vaccines than we do.
The problem here is that the people who got the 'spares' \ 'leftovers' now need to be given an appointment to guarantee they get their second dose, as far as I understand.
So they've skipped the queue and potentially delayed someone higher up the list.
As these were 'spare' doses, I think they should have been left to waste rather than commit us to that second dose for non-priority randomers i.e. anyone lower than priority 6 or 10 maybe.

that makes no sense what so ever, we need to get as many vaccinated asap, but the process does need to be more transparent, it sounds like Israel is doing a better job of that

odyssey06

Wanderer78 wrote: »

that makes no sense what so ever, we need to get as many vaccinated asap, but the process does need to be more transparent, it sounds like Israel is doing a better job of that

We need to get the vaccines to the people who need it the most first.
Vaccinating low risk people who then need a second dose doesn't help us with that when we don't even have enough vaccines to cover the vulnerable, and won't have for some time.
Israel already has 10%+ of its population vaccinated, they are at a totally different stage and far higher dose allocation acquired.

bucketybuck

Deleted User wrote: »

The incident here happened 2 weeks ago and involved 16 spare doses,

That you know about so far.

And yet already there are reports of further discrepancies in other hospitals, with rumblings of more to follow. 16 doses? Nobody cares about 16 doses. But people do and should care about systemic failures.

mariaalice

Generally, I take boards with a pinch of salt.

But it really bothers me that people would use the vaccine role out to get at the HSE because of their own chips on their shoulder or whatever is going on with them.

The HSE is not perfect by any mean but this is not one of their mess-ups

mariaalice

bucketybuck wrote: »

That you know about so far.

And yet already there are reports of further discrepancies in other hospitals, with rumblings of more to follow. 16 doses? Nobody cares about 16 doses. But people do and should care about systemic failures.

They gave in to some construction workers in Kerry that were on-site and it's still, not a system that failed.

jill_valentine

odyssey06 wrote: »

We need to get the vaccines to the people who need it the most first.
Vaccinating low risk people who then need a second dose doesn't help us with that when we don't even have enough vaccines to cover the vulnerable, and won't have for some time.
Israel already has 10%+ of its population vaccinated, they are at a totally different stage and far higher dose allocation acquired.

This is absolutely bonkers.

Every vaccination helps. Every vaccination confers some degree of immunity. Israel got that level of immunity precisely by being flexible in how they used their unplanned doses. Their famous Pizza Guy would have been low risk.

What you're talking about here is doing something completely irrational and damaging to the overall rollout just because on some basic schoolyard level it doesn't "feel" right that a few individuals might get vaxxed out of turn. There's a far bigger picture than that.

We have data now to know what happens in areas who try to micromanage those last handful of doses every day, and it's not pretty. The system has already been improved, just once lets let common sense prevail and not end up advocating something ridiculous for the sake of "optics".

Wanderer78

odyssey06 wrote: »

We need to get the vaccines to the people who need it the most first.
Vaccinating low risk people who then need a second dose doesn't help us with that when we don't even have enough vaccines to cover the vulnerable, and won't have for some time.
Israel already has 10%+ of its population vaccinated, they are at a totally different stage and far higher dose allocation acquired.

of course we need to get the most vulnerable done first, but the reality is, its not always possible on a day to day basis, i think the Israel approach should be done here also, or rollout in its entirety will take longer, we cant have a situation whereby vaccines are simply being poured down the drain

steddyeddy

mariaalice wrote: »

Absolute nonsense comparing the two-issue.

I'm not. I'm making a statement as proof of the incompetence in the HSE.

Starting a vaccination program without an effective list is also incompetence. The root problem is comparable but the outcome isn't.

Sofa King Great

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I've just been listening to Pat Kenny interviewing health correspondents in Germany, Spain and Italy. ALL of those countries had issues and teething problems initially with the rolling out of the vaccine. ALL of them had stories similar to ours. Part of Germany were vaccinated far quicker than others as Germany is a federal republic with individual states. Germany also bought a massive private supply of the vaccine, outside of the agreed EU protocol! That is a far bigger issue than 16 spare vials of vaccine actually being used here in Ireland!

We shouldn't be comparing our failures to others - we should be aiming to be best in class

mariaalice

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm not. I'm making a statement as proof of the incompetence in the HSE.

Starting a vaccination program without an effective list is also incompetence. The root problem is comparable but the outcome isn't.

They have just had the head of the vaccine role out on RTE I radio listen to it.

plodder

And it wasn't just 16 doses. It was 120. Around 10% of the total. I don't think anyone could justify that number of vaccines being doled out willy nilly.

One (other) thing I don't get is the hospitals being told to make their own standby lists. How can they do that? They surely just have their list of frontline HCWs that are authorised to get the vaccine. Where are they going to get additional people from? Surely, it should be the HSE who steps in and provides lists of additional qualified recipients when necessary.

mariaalice

Sofa King Great wrote: »

We shouldn't be comparing our failures to others - we should be aiming to be best in class

Who is the best in class at this?

odyssey06

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is absolutely bonkers.
Every vaccination helps. Every vaccination confers some degree of immunity. Israel got that level of immunity precisely by being flexible in how they used their unplanned doses. Their famous Pizza Guy would have been low risk.
What you're talking about here is doing something completely irrational and damaging to the overall rollout just because on some basic schoolyard level it doesn't "feel" right that a few individuals might get vaxxed out of turn. There's a far bigger picture than that.
We have data now to know what happens in areas who try to micromanage those last handful of doses every day, and it's not pretty.

We have a priority listing. Seems like basic stuff to think we need to adhere to it.
Nothing to do with 'not feeling right', so spare me your amateur psychology guff seems like it should stay on the schoolyard as it's about that level your comments have originated from.

It's not completely irrational - pointing out these people now need a second dose. They are in a low risk group. They will now get the second dose ahead of someone the proper authorities have determined has a far higher need for vaccination. Some vaccines help a helluva lot more than others, those who are high risk either if they get it or in terms of their contacts. That's what the priority listing is about.

I repeat, at this stage it's not about rolling out the most number of vaccines, it's about vaccinating the most important \ vulnerable first.
Vacctinating the key 1% is more important than 10% of low risk people, especially when we have uncertainty about how effective they are re: transmission.

is_that_so

plodder wrote: »

And it wasn't just 16 doses. It was 120. Around 10% of the total. I don't think anyone could justify that number of vaccines being doled out willy nilly.

One (other) thing I don't get is the hospitals being told to make their own standby lists. How can they do that? They surely just have their list of frontline HCWs that are authorised to get the vaccine. Where are they going to get additional people from? Surely, it should be the HSE who steps in and provides lists of additional qualified recipients when necessary.

It's a list of Group 2 in sequence of priority first and then Group 4 as backup. The HSE doesn't have that level of detailed knowledge about the inner workings of hospitals. Thankfully we are coming to the end of this type of random decision making.