16 family members given vaccine

steddyeddy

Just to add I'm convinced the man in question is a nice man and treats his staff well. My concern is that at a societal level these vaccinations should be transparent. It was the initial roll out but this will happen again in the HSE. It's flooded with whole families who will cover each other and stick up for each other.

Christy42

steddyeddy wrote: »

Exactly. So it's either vaccinate sons or throw them in the bin.

The other option is do it like every other developed nation does it by priority, organisation and effective planning.

Didn't Israel vaccinate a pizza guy cos he happened to be nearby? And they seem to be the gold standard so far.

I would need further citation that every other nation is outstripping us as suggested.

steddyeddy

Christy42 wrote: »

Didn't Israel vaccinate a pizza guy cos he happened to be nearby? And they seem to be the gold standard so far.

I would need further citation that every other nation is outstripping us as suggested.

I didn't say that. I said it's normal to have a list and an IT platform.

Fann Linn

'Profound error of judgement and not happy at all' according to Donnelly.

Christy42

steddyeddy wrote: »

I didn't say that. I said it's normal to have a list and an IT platform.

You stated every other developed nation was working off of lists. Why did Israel's fail if that was the case? Why were they so bad that they couldn't grab some police/firemen/nurses whoever else has been suggested in this thread.

steddyeddy

Fann Linn wrote: »

'Profound error of judgement and not happy at all' according to Donnelly.

Of course it is. It's corruption but was it not also his job to ensure that a correct system is in place for lists, IT platforms ect.

Fann Linn

steddyeddy wrote: »

Of course it is. It's corruption but was it not also his job to ensure that a correct system is in place for lists, IT platforms ect.

He was asked that also and he said the list has been there from day one with regard to who is prioritised for vaccines.

Privacy Notice

steddyeddy wrote: »

Exactly. So it's either vaccinate sons or throw them in the bin.

The other option is do it like every other developed nation does it by priority, organisation and effective planning.

You can't plan for everything

ceegee

plodder wrote: »

Hopefully, going forward the problem can be largely avoided by only diluting vials when you are sure the right people are there to receive them. If vials are left over, then they should be kept un-opened in the fridge and used then for the standby list the next day.

Making up the vials one by one will presumably slow down the process, how many less people would you be willing to vaccinate in order to make sure nobody gets to skip the queue?

When the AZ vaccine rolls out to pharmacies and GPs, it comes in a 10 dose vial. Should they make elderly patients turn up an hour early and wait outside to make sure all 10 are there before starting?

timeToLive

bucketybuck wrote: »

The bigger picture that you don't seem to grasp is that a properly planned and adhered to system will be more efficient in distributing the vaccine than one where people are repeatedly winging it and chasing their tails.

You might save 16 doses now but in the long term you could have saved 16000 doses by insisting that management do their ****ing jobs properly.

But why should management do their jobs properly when the reaction to clear evidence that the system is open to abuse, is for people to say "sure look, its grand, nothing to see here".

The people have spoken - they want to see Ava and Oisin vaccinated before Anto and Deco and that is THAT!

elefant

seamus wrote: »

But they haven't provided any alternative suggestion of what should have been done in this instance.

Everything that could have been done, was done. The option was literally to find 16 more random people to inject or throw them in the bin.

The argument that 16 other people will now lose out because of second doses, doesn't hold water. Everyone will get injected one way or another. In the grand scheme someone might get their first dose 24 hours later than they otherwise would have.

Why does it have to be binary? Why is it "adhere rigidly to the rules" or "random chaos"?

You cannot cover every edge case. There is a limit to how prescriptive the guidance can be, before you start binning unused doses. Every now and again a hospital will end up with a small number of doses that need to be used, and they have reached the limit of the guidance.

In that case the guidance should state "pick any suitable individual that is available at short notice and inject them". And leave it at that.

You're making this binary, or at least assuming it's binary by suggesting they literally couldn't find anyone but the Master's 2 children. People are not, with very rare exception, saying they'd be better off in the bin. A lot of people are saying that when they had 7 surplus vaccine doses left and no more people over the age of 70 to give it to, the Master's children should have been the very last options to receive 2 of those 7 doses. If there was literally nobody else suitable in the hospital under 70, or nobody related to any other staff member at the hospital who could get there in time, then it's fair enough that they got the doses.

It's wrong if 2 of 7 people chosen to get the extra doses were chosen because of who their father is. The rollout should be seen to be unaffected by this kind of thing, and the Master of the hospital knows that. It was bad judgment, and he's apologised for it. That's it.

hynesie08

Fann Linn wrote: »

He was asked that also and he said the list has been there from day one with regard to who is prioritised for vaccines.

Well, someone is lying then. My money is on Donnelly.

Melanchthon

iamwhoiam wrote: »

His colleagues have come out and said he is the kindest and most supportive
He was so pleased to be getting his staff vaccinated and excited to know it was being done
Thats good enough for me , he made a bad call with very little time to sort it out
and under pressure after a long day
So in the grand scheme of things I will cut him some slack and move on
We will all get it one day soon hopefully and we have to see that the frontline staff are under enormous strain

The person who formerly occupied his role said its an issue, there clearly is staff who think its an issue because the story leaked to the media, they aren't publicly stating it which is understandable when we see how whistleblowers are treated in Ireland.

The Coombe isn't a small hospital, its got a lot of staff, out of the 16 relatives dosed, 2 of them were his kids who are in the lowest priority group.
Its not a case of, oh they would have had to throw them away if they didn't give them to his college aged children, they could have rang around the entire staff pool and asked for family members 65+. It wouldn't have been by the book but it would be a lot more acceptable than what happened and it would be easy to do, they have the staff contact details in front of them and they are used to being called at irregular times. No way would his two kids have been part of the 16 if they did a general call out.

We can even look at the Rotunda, its not great what happened there, however they avoided nepotism and vaccinated higher priority people so we see it can be done.

In a private company that deals on an international level what happened here would likely be classed as corruption.

steddyeddy

Melanchthon wrote: »

The person who formerly occupied his role said its an issue, there clearly is staff who think its an issue because the story leaked to the media, they aren't publicly stating it which is understandable when we see how whistleblowers are treated in Ireland.

The Coombe isn't a small hospital, its got a lot of staff, out of the 16 relatives dosed, 2 of them were his kids who are in the lowest priority group.
Its not a case of, oh they would have had to throw them away if they didn't give them to his college aged children, they could have rang around the entire staff pool and asked for family members 65+. It wouldn't have been by the book but it would be a lot more acceptable than what happened and it would be easy to do, they have the staff contact details in front of them and they are used to being called at irregular times. No way would his two kids have been part of the 16 if they did a general call out.

We can even look at the Rotunda, its not great what happened there, however they avoided nepotism and vaccinated higher priority people so we see it can be done.

In a private company that deals on an international level what happened here would likely be classed as corruption.

This. How stupid do you have to be to suggest your sons are the highest priority available.

Russman

If people are getting all bent out of shape over this case of 16 jabs, I'd guess they're going to be very traumatised when the roll out gets down to a very local level

"Howya Mary, your Kate still works in the chemist doesn't she ?"
"She does yeah"
"Ahh thats what I thought, myself and himself are heading away for a break but we're way down the list for this oul vaccine, any chance she could do something ? Here's a nice bottle of wine we got over the Christmas that we've no use for by the way....."

hynesie08

steddyeddy wrote: »

This. How stupid do you have to be to suggest your sons are the highest priority available.

You keep saying this, even though no one is arguing that they are......

is_that_so

Russman wrote: »

If people are getting all bent out of shape over this case of 16 jabs, I'd guess they're going to be very traumatised when the roll out gets down to a very local level

"Howya Mary, your Kate still works in the chemist doesn't she ?"
"She does yeah"
"Ahh thats what I thought, myself and himself are heading away for a break but we're way down the list for this oul vaccine, any chance she could do something ? Here's a nice bottle of wine we got over the Christmas that we've no use for by the way....."

Pretty sure this programme is linked to PPS numbers so it will be trackable.

plodder

ceegee wrote: »

Making up the vials one by one will presumably slow down the process, how many less people would you be willing to vaccinate in order to make sure nobody gets to skip the queue?

I'm not saying making them one by one (even though they are actually diluted one by one). It's presumably more efficient to make them in batches. At the start of a particular run make up large batches and as you get closer to the end, smaller ones..

When the AZ vaccine rolls out to pharmacies and GPs, it comes in a 10 dose vial. Should they make elderly patients turn up an hour early and wait outside to make sure all 10 are there before starting?

No, when you open an AZ vial it's okay for six hours, but you don't open the next one until you finish the previous one.

When a pharmacy receives a batch of AZ vaccines, they aren't going to immediately open all of them and then run around like headless chickens trying to find 500 people to give them to.

bucketybuck

Privacy Notice wrote: »

You can't plan for everything

Yeah. Its only the single most important thing happening in the country right now, no point spending valuable time on plans.

Russman wrote: »

If people are getting all bent out of shape over this case of 16 jabs, I'd guess they're going to be very traumatised when the roll out gets down to a very local level

Start as you mean to go on.

If they can't get it right at the national level then damn sure they won't bother doing it right at the local level, and 16 doses will be a drop in the ocean compared to what will happen if people think this is acceptable.

Can people really not see that one follows the other?

Privacy Notice

bucketybuck wrote: »

Can people really not see that one follows the other?

Can you not see that those 16 people will still have been vaccinated at the end of the day? For all of your planning to reduce 16 extra doses down to a margin of just one extra dose, what do you do with that single dose when there is nobody available on the list to take the jab.

McFly85

Melanchthon wrote: »

The person who formerly occupied his role said its an issue, there clearly is staff who think its an issue because the story leaked to the media, they aren't publicly stating it which is understandable when we see how whistleblowers are treated in Ireland.

I think he said he's calling for an inquiry, which is the correct thing to do. I would say if the master can prove that he did everything he could to get those vaccines to other people before getting them to his kids in a last ditch attempt to not waste them, then I don't think the former master would have much of an issue.

I would agree with that myself btw. I said yesterday it didn't bother me because it sounded like he made every effort to find the relevant front line workers he could beforehand, but if that's not the case it's a different story entirely.

plodder

Ah seriously. There isn't time for enquiries over this. So long as some lessons have been learned, it's time to move on.

Privacy Notice

Live and let live. Let's get on with delivering as many vaccinations as possible.

Russman

McFly85 wrote: »

I said yesterday it didn't bother me because it sounded like he made every effort to find the relevant front line workers he could beforehand, but if that's not the case it's a different story entirely.

In fairness, and joking aside, this is what it boils down to for me. At face value it appears they did their best in the absence of official guidance. They even contacted the HSE. Doesn't mean it wasn't stupid not to consider how it would look giving it to your kids.

As you say if that's not the case then its completely different.

The Coombe internal emails are interesting to say the least. Chris has it in for MOC.

crossman47

plodder wrote: »

Ah seriously. There isn't time for enquiries over this. So long as some lessons have been learned, it's time to move on.

Agreed. Don't waste peoples time with an inquiry. Only beneficiaries will be lawyers. We had a Commission into mother and baby homes and now people want an inquiry into the inquiry.

It reminds me of the old joke "Why have we only one Monopolies Commission?"

Wombatman

Deleted User wrote: »

The Coombe internal emails are interesting to say the least. Chris has it in for MOC.

Linky?

seamus

elefant wrote: »

the Master's children should have been the very last options to receive 2 of those 7 doses.

It's wrong if 2 of 7 people chosen to get the extra doses were chosen because of who their father is. The rollout should be seen to be unaffected by this kind of thing

So which is it? The rollout should be unaffected by this kind of thing, or relatives of management should be discriminated against and denied access to vaccines until every stone has been looked under?

It's funny that all of those shouting loudest about nepotism seem to have no problem at all artificially bumping someone DOWN the list because of who they're related to.

Melanchthon

McFly85 wrote: »

I think he said he's calling for an inquiry, which is the correct thing to do. I would say if the master can prove that he did everything he could to get those vaccines to other people before getting them to his kids in a last ditch attempt to not waste them, then I don't think the former master would have much of an issue.

I would agree with that myself btw. I said yesterday it didn't bother me because it sounded like he made every effort to find the relevant front line workers he could beforehand, but if that's not the case it's a different story entirely.

It should be pretty easy for a journalist to confirm if he sent an alert to staff asking them if they lived with a person who is 65+ who lived within half an hour drive say.
That should have been a pretty easy thing to do and wouldn't result in people who are basically bottom of the list being vaccinated because of who their dad is.

Melanchthon

seamus wrote: »

So which is it? The rollout should be unaffected by this kind of thing, or relatives of management should be discriminated against and denied access to vaccines until every stone has been looked under?

It's funny that all of those shouting loudest about nepotism seem to have no problem at all artificially bumping someone DOWN the list because of who they're related to.

Pure deflection and excusing nepotism, they are college age, massively far down the list and part of the lowest risk category, a hospital the size of the Coombe it would be a piece of piss to get elderly staff relatives.