16 family members given vaccine

is_that_so

jill_valentine wrote: »

They're scrap doses. You've cobbled them together from leftovers you couldn't plan around because they're not officially there and don't come in reliable quantities. Your 16 doses have landed in your lap, after you've spent hours coming up with 100+ higher priority people.

Now what is the first call you make?

- not related
- not under 70
- within an hour of you with means to travel
- does not work with you

TBH you're creating scenarios, based on news reports. Neither you nor I know what exactly happened.

Christy42

Miike wrote: »

If they worked in the hospital in an at-risk capacity. Why would they not have been included in the hospital Round A of vaccinations? or more importantly, does that mean there is other staff currently working in the Coombe who were not offered the vaccine but it was ok to farm it out to family?

None of us have all the details in clarity, but that doesn't mitigate the contempt and rage I hold for that man. There is people working in COVID units throughout the country who haven't even been as much as offered an appointment yet.

They weren't at risk obviously. They were working in a hospital which still puts them high up the planned pecking order.

I am sure there is. I am curious how many of their personal numbers that the Coombe had immediate access to and were available to be there on short notice (remembering their jobs can't exactly be dropped at a moments notice).

jill_valentine

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Bizarre story really

If he had discretion as to who should get these “spare” doses?

Why not reach out to other front line staff rather than his own family you would have to ask?

- The vaccine can't travel
- It needs to be used in a very short window - at the point these 16 were dosed, they were down to the last hour
- They did contact the HSE to say they had spare capacity
- They had already found 100+ other frontline/high priority people to give spare doses to.

The scandal is over 16 doses, two of which went to other HSE staff, 9 of which went to over 70s, and all of which came after 100+ more urgent candidates.

is_that_so

is_that_so wrote: »

That sounds very like poor planning and you end up making stupid ad hoc decisions. If you don't see the issues with relatives here you really don't see the full problem.

Nail on the head.

hynesie08

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Bizarre story really

If he had discretion as to who should get these “spare” doses?

Why not reach out to other front line staff rather than his own family you would have to ask?

They did, they got 104 extra Healthcare workers.

is_that_so

Christy42 wrote: »

Yeah they are largely making this up as they go. AFAIK no vaccine has had to be rolled out country wide so rapidly before.
Systems have improved since this happened supposedly and they got 104/120 on short notice. That does not seem too bad for improvisation. Plus half marks for getting most of the remainder to secondary targets for the vaccine.

It is a little suboptimal over what we could have had but life won't order everyone outside the door to wait their turn.

If we're still using terms like suboptimal, even in a few weeks time, the rollout is a mess.

plodder

Dressoutlet wrote: »

They have to be thrown out, they're defrosted and have a strict time frame.

They can be kept in a regular fridge for 5 days after thawing. If they have any left over, leave them in the fridge and call the HSE the following day to send more people to use them up.

Green Peter

KaneToad wrote: »

It's the lack of judgement exercised by the medic that is the problem. He has since apologised which indicates he sees the error of his ways.

But it does raise the question about other 'little' incidents where vaccines are not ending up with the most needy first.

I have first hand knowledge of admin staff in private hospitals getting vaccines and of retired hospital workers being offered vaccines.

Also, there appears to be a plan to provide blanket vaccination coverage for entire organisations. I would question this approach... not everyone in the HSE needs to jump a queue...not everyone in the guards needs to jump a queue...not everyone in education needs to jump a queue...not everyone in the Prison service needs to jump a queue...

The most vulnerable - those at most risk of dying with the virus need to be dealt with as a priority.

110%

seamus

Miike wrote: »

None of us have all the details in clarity, but that doesn't mitigate the contempt and rage I hold for that man. There is people working in COVID units throughout the country who haven't even been as much as offered an appointment yet.

So really what you're saying here is that if frontline workers couldn't practically avail of these doses, then nobody should have, and they should have gone in the bin rather than be given to someone lower on the priority list.

Sacrificing doses in the pursuit of perfect fairness. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Gotcha.

RoryMac

Beechwoodspark wrote: »

Bizarre story really

If he had discretion as to who should get these “spare” doses?

Why not reach out to other front line staff rather than his own family you would have to ask?

Did you read the story?

They did reach out to the HSE who offered no assistance so they themselves found 104 additional people eligible for vaccination under the current criteria. The last 16 doses went to 9 or 10(reports differ) over 70's and the rest to people under 70 of different ages including the hospital master's 2 adult children.

Christy42

is_that_so wrote: »

If we're still using terms like suboptimal, even in a few weeks time, the rollout is a mess.

Given most jobs in the country have been done for years and are done suboptimally (I would put money on every job in the world if you had a microscope put on them) it seems a little harsh.

Up above you mention we don't know the full facts. That says to me outrage should be saved till we do.

jill_valentine

is_that_so wrote: »

TBH you're creating scenarios, based on news reports. Neither you nor I know what exactly happened.

I'm presenting the scenario based on what we actually know, based on news reports, yes. The alternative would be "imagining things to be mad about based on hearsay"

Dempo1

Optics certainly not good but I wondered what was a worse alternative? Waste vaccine? I'd be fine with this only if no one vulnerable or staff member lost out. I think this story along with the private hospital staff being vaccinated ahead of front line public health staff only highlights the concerning lack of management of this roll out. Minister Donnellys exasperation only deflects from his utther incompetency.

Amirani

is_that_so wrote: »

If we're still using terms like suboptimal, even in a few weeks time, the rollout is a mess.

I'd take a extensively rolled out vaccine program that is "suboptimal" every day of the week over one that is "optimal" but with more limited roll out.

Suboptimal != bad.

Miike

seamus wrote: »

So really what you're saying here is that if frontline workers couldn't practically avail of these doses, then nobody should have, and they should have gone in the bin rather than be given to someone lower on the priority list.

Sacrificing doses in the pursuit of perfect fairness. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Gotcha.

Not what I'm saying at all and you're fully aware that it's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying there is people throughout this country at very serious risk of contracting this virus and his story of "not being able to find people" doesn't hold water for me. I'd love to know who and how many people he contacted who were not available or unwilling to attend a clinic for vaccination.

I respect you as a quality poster on this forum but using a straw man argument to defend this embarrassing display of nepotism is low.

jill_valentine

I am genuinely concerned the Joe Duffy brigade will do their nut about this until "something is done" and the overall rollout inevitably slows down as a result.

Amirani

Miike wrote: »

Not what I'm saying at all and you're fully aware that it's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying there is people throughout this country at very serious risk of contracting this virus and his story of "not being able to find people" doesn't hold water for me. I'd love to know who and how many people he contacted who were not available or unwilling to attend a clinic for vaccination.

We already know that the number contacted that night is well over 100. That's in addition to informing the HSE.

is_that_so

Christy42 wrote: »

Given most jobs in the country have been done for years and are done suboptimally (I would put money on every job in the world if you had a microscope put on them) it seems a little harsh.

Up above you mention we don't know the full facts. That says to me outrage should be saved till we do.

I'm not going anywhere beyond his decision, certainly not what they were doing. He made a poor one, by his own admission. I think it has the potential to cause a lot of other problems in how the public is looking at this and perception of it is very important.

Christy42

is_that_so wrote: »

I'm not going anywhere beyond his decision, certainly not what they were doing. He made a poor one, by his own admission. I think it has the potential to cause a lot of other problems in how the public is looking at this and perception of it is very important.

The at a certain point you accept optics are better than practicalities. Which is what bugs me. If someone was left waiting I would agree. If there was someone obvious who wasn't contacted I would agree. But as far as I know no one who could have easilybeen contacted gotten there and was ahead of the two sons on the vaccine list exists. Until then I can't find a flaw in the decision.

Yes it would be preferable to have someone not related from an optics point of view. But if the only way to make something look better is to make it worse than it is just idiocy and pandering to permanently outraged.

is_that_so

Amirani wrote: »

I'd take a extensively rolled out vaccine program that is "suboptimal" every day of the week over one that is "optimal" but with more limited roll out.

Suboptimal != bad.

Sub means less than and it sounds like an management excuse! What we will need to see is a working system, with the odd glitch. Too much of this suboptimal stuff will not go down well.

steddyeddy

seamus wrote: »

So really what you're saying here is that if frontline workers couldn't practically avail of these doses, then nobody should have, and they should have gone in the bin rather than be given to someone lower on the priority list.

Sacrificing doses in the pursuit of perfect fairness. Cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Gotcha.

I worked as a hospital biochemist. You're operating under a fundamental misunderstanding here in regard to preparation of mRNA vaccines and medicines.

Someone, somewhere messed up. You don't have leftover in systems like this. The dilutions are calculated prior to reconstitution of the vaccine and also lists of those most in need, followed by back up lists. mRNA vaccines last ~6 hours.

So either frontline workers didn't turn up for the vaccines after a planning stage, the HSE were slow in facilitating back ups (they were) or there were no back ups suggested prior to reconstitution of the vaccine.

This is not an isolated incident. This happened all the time when I worked in the HSE. The fact that other frontline workers are complaining about what happened should be evidence enough something bad did and is occuring.

Dempo1

I see squirmy Ex minister for health Harris, putting the boot in on the 1 o clock news, he just can't help himself, utter buffoon who forgets his own incompetence whilst in the Role. I think he forgets what is ministerial role is and thankfully it's no longer Health.

jill_valentine

plodder wrote: »

They can be kept in a regular fridge for 5 days after thawing. If they have any left over, leave them in the fridge and call the HSE the following day to send more people to use them up.

Once it's reconstituted you've only got 6 hours with it. You're racing the clock to find 120 people before the day's out, after the thousand you've already done.

is_that_so

Christy42 wrote: »

The at a certain point you accept optics are better than practicalities. Which is what bugs me. If someone was left waiting I would agree. If there was someone obvious who wasn't contacted I would agree. But as far as I know no one who could have easilybeen contacted gotten there and was ahead of the two sons on the vaccine list exists. Until then I can't find a flaw in the decision.

Yes it would be preferable to have someone not related from an optics point of view. But if the only way to make something look better is to make it worse than it is just idiocy and pandering to permanently outraged.

Just like you I'm guessing at this but I'm veering far more towards bad planning.
Don't knock the idiots and the outraged you need them to be vaccinated too.

seamus

Miike wrote: »

Not what I'm saying at all and you're fully aware that it's not what I'm trying to say. I'm saying there is people throughout this country at very serious risk of contracting this virus and his story of "not being able to find people" doesn't hold water for me. I'd love to know who and how many people he contacted who were not available or unwilling to attend a clinic for vaccination.

I respect you as a quality poster on this forum but using a straw man argument to defend this embarrassing display of nepotism is low.

Your starting point is irrational. You're suggesting that he should have just started randomly contacting....people. What people? Where would he get their details? Do you think there's a HSE database of "high risk people" that someone can log onto and get phone numbers?

If I tasked you, at 9:30 in the evening, with finding 16 people who can make it to the Coombe in the next two hours, what would you do? Bearing in mind that the HSE has already exhausted its list of contacts. Start ringing around local nursing homes and sending out ambulances to pick up patients? Heading out on the street and pulling in random passers-by?

You would most likely contact people that you personally know. And you would prioritise those who are at risk or who work in hospitals.

Because contacting people you know is the best way of ensuring that these doses get used without going to waste.

You can be as irritated as you like about this, but nobody has yet provided any explanation as to what the glaring error was here. "It looks bad" is not in question. But what was the alternative?

Miike

Amirani wrote: »

We already know that the number contacted that night is well over 100. That's in addition to informing the HSE.

and how exactly do we know this?

steddyeddy

seamus wrote: »

Your starting point is irrational. You're suggesting that he should have just started randomly contacting....people. What people? Where would he get their details? Do you think there's a HSE database of "high risk people" that someone can log onto and get phone numbers?

Yes there's a HSE database of frontline workers. It's easy to find those in surrounding hospitals.

seamus

steddyeddy wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

Your starting point is irrational. You're suggesting that he should have just started randomly contacting....people. What people? Where would he get their details? Do you think there's a HSE database of "high risk people" that someone can log onto and get phone numbers?

Yes there's a HSE database of frontline workers. It's easy to find those in surrounding hospitals.

Yes, and they did that. What then?

jill_valentine

steddyeddy wrote: »

- the HSE were slow in facilitating back ups (they were) or there WERE no back ups suggested prior to reconstitution of the vaccine -

This is where there's an argument to be made, and it feels quite deliberate to me that the master of the Coombe is being hung out to dry for having to make the best of the situation instead.

But that said - this is very early in an unprecedented rollout. Stuff like this will happen, and the article states the vaccine booking system went online the next day. I am far more worried about the effects of the backlash than I am about this actual incident or ones like it.

plodder

jill_valentine wrote: »

Once it's reconstituted you've only got 6 hours with it. You're racing the clock to find 120 people before the day's out, after the thousand you've already done.

They don't need to be reconstituted/diluted until they are about to be used.

I'm only reading this off Pfizer's own instruction leaflet by the way.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

is_that_so

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is where there's an argument to be made, and it feels quite deliberate to me that the master of the Coombe is being hung out to dry for having to make the best of the situation instead.

Well, making something out of it! He hung himself out, by apologising.

Fann Linn

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is where there's an argument to be made, and it feels quite deliberate to me that the master of the Coombe is being hung out to dry for having to make the best of the situation instead.

Did an educated man, such as the Master of the Coombe, not think to himself, 'maybe, just maybe this might not go down to well if word gets out', with regard to his sons.

steddyeddy

seamus wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes, and they did that. What then?

No they didn't Seamus, not effectively anyway.

A nurse has said that she felt sick when she learned that the Covid-19 vaccine was given to family members of staff at a Dublin hospital.

Ms Morgan-Walsh and her colleagues made headlines last week when they made a video appealing for the Government to vaccinate the frontline workers at the hospital.

Speaking about the situation at the Coombe Hospital this morning on RTÉ Radio's Today with Claire Byrne, Ms Morgan-Walsh said: "I actually felt sick, to think that we had to go online, we had to do our own video and beg for vaccines because on Friday morning we had zero vaccines.

"We're not the only frontline workers in hospitals that had zero vaccines.

"I felt sick to think that there were 16 vaccinations left over that could have been given to 16 frontline workers. There doesn't seem to be any accountability in this.

GreeBo

plodder wrote: »

They don't need to be reconstituted/diluted until they are about to be used.

I'm only reading this off Pfizer's own instruction leaflet by the way.

https://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

Isnt the whole vial diluted though?
And assuming the have more than one person giving the vaccines, you are going to have more than 1 vial on the go at once.
Also the entire tray is taken from -70 storage and put into a regular storage, the vaccine has a limited lifespan from that point, diluted or not.

Billgirlylegs

There was a lady on a radio program explaining that the vaccine was transported in vials containing 5 doses. (she said there was slightly more, possibly six per vial)

That means that fairly late on there were 20/24 vials over and above what was needed,
I don't know how these vials are packaged, or how long it takes to prepare them for use, but that seems a lot to explain away as miscalculation.
It appears that they got 200 vials in total to administer

Does this happen everyday, or was this their first day?
HSE don't have a great record at scheduling treatment, appointments or counting patients.

steddyeddy

jill_valentine wrote: »

This is where there's an argument to be made, and it feels quite deliberate to me that the master of the Coombe is being hung out to dry for having to make the best of the situation instead.

But that said - this is very early in an unprecedented rollout. Stuff like this will happen, and the article states the vaccine booking system went online the next day. I am far more worried about the effects of the backlash than I am about this actual incident or ones like it.

He prioritised his sons at the expense of frontline workers. He's right to apologise but there's certainly a lack of an effective back up made in case more became available.

Do you also not see anything wrong with launching a vaccine dispensing program before a booking system was available?

steddyeddy

GreeBo wrote: »

Isnt the whole vial diluted though?
And assuming the have more than one person giving the vaccines, you are going to have more than 1 vial on the go at once.
Also the entire tray is taken from -70 storage and put into a regular storage, the vaccine has a limited lifespan from that point, diluted or not.

Yes the whole vial is diluted. The vial, once reconstituted will be sufficient for several doses.

jill_valentine

steddyeddy wrote: »

No they didn't Seamus, not effectively anyway.

Nurse Morgan Walsh is based in Tipperary. Did the article that quote comes from not mention that somewhere?

jill_valentine

steddyeddy wrote: »

Do you also not see anything wrong with launching a vaccine dispensing program before a booking system was available?

That is essentially the opposite of what I said.

Fault lies above the Coombe in this instance. But regardless a thousand people are now vaccinated and better systems are in place going forward.

hynesie08

steddyeddy wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

No they didn't Seamus, not effectively anyway.

If nenagh hospital can spare 16 staff for 5 hours on 10 minutes notice, they're not as bad off as they're claiming to be.....

Kaisr Sose

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I do have an issue how the Coombe got so many doses for all staff however I can understand mistakes will be made. The person who never made a mistake never did f@@k all as long as I was working with people. You make the decision and he did that. In one way they did well in the Coombe. Whoever allotted them doses for all staff members needs to answer questions not the Coombe.

I have and do work with these types.. Frustrating souls. Indecision is generally a decision. A decision not to waste them was a good decision, better than waste.

The main story here is how the Coombe staff recieve vaccination over or ahead of other frontline hospitals dealing with Covid patients (e.g. Nenagh Hospital initially told there was no vaccine for them — apologies if this is already stated in thread).

That surely is a bigger story when trying to suppress this virus than the 16 doses, that in fairness, went to use.

seamus

steddyeddy wrote: »

No they didn't Seamus, not effectively anyway.

That nurse, is in Tipperary. You think what they should have done is ring frontline staff in Tipperary at 9:30 at night, find out which ones were off-duty, and tell them they had two hours to make it to Dublin if they wanted to be vaccinated?

And you think that that sounds less like "unmitigated shambles", than giving it two hospital workers who were available to get it within minutes.

Right.

I have no doubt Ms Morgan-Walsh would be back on with Claire Byrne going apesh1t about that instead.

Amirani

Miike wrote: »

and how exactly do we know this?

Because it has been reported in every story on the issue.

steddyeddy

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

There was a lady on a radio program explaining that the vaccine was transported in vials containing 5 doses. (she said there was slightly more, possibly six per vial)

That means that fairly late on there were 20/24 vials over and above what was needed,
I don't know how these vials are packaged, or how long it takes to prepare them for use, but that seems a lot to explain away as miscalculation.
It appears that they got 200 vials in total to administer

Does this happen everyday, or was this their first day?
HSE don't have a great record at scheduling treatment, appointments or counting patients.

There's often slightly more than needed in vials containing biomolecules or other chemicals that's because of unavoidable errors in injecting, dispensing and transferring liquid. You won't get exactly one dose per transfer. The errors add up.

I work with pipettes that dispense 1 ul but you can bet it's more like 1.005 ul, an amount that adds up each time.

secondrowgal

I absolutely don't want to see any vaccines wasted. However, we hear constantly about people who don't turn up for various HSE appointments, for whatever reasons. There's no reason not to assume that the same wouldn't happen with vaccines, especially as here they were dealing with people working on the front line, and perhaps busy with a patient at their allocated time plus or minus however much time. My question is was there a back-up list to ensure no wastage and if not, why not?

hynesie08

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

There was a lady on a radio program explaining that the vaccine was transported in vials containing 5 doses. (she said there was slightly more, possibly six per vial)

That means that fairly late on there were 20/24 vials over and above what was needed,
I don't know how these vials are packaged, or how long it takes to prepare them for use, but that seems a lot to explain away as miscalculation.
It appears that they got 200 vials in total to administer

Does this happen everyday, or was this their first day?
HSE don't have a great record at scheduling treatment, appointments or counting patients.

They don't open a vial and then wait till its empty to open the next one, there could be dozens of vials on the go.

steddyeddy

seamus wrote: »

That nurse, is in Tipperary. You think what they should have done is ring frontline staff in Tipperary at 9:30 at night, find out which ones were off-duty, and tell them they had two hours to make it to Dublin if they wanted to be vaccinated?

And you think that that sounds less like "unmitigated shambles", than giving it two hospital workers who were available to get it within minutes.

Right.

Seamus is ringing up another hospital (in Dublin even) is "chaos" then you expect very little of your healthcare system.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Billgirlylegs wrote: »

There was a lady on a radio program explaining that the vaccine was transported in vials containing 5 doses. (she said there was slightly more, possibly six per vial)

That means that fairly late on there were 20/24 vials over and above what was needed,
I don't know how these vials are packaged, or how long it takes to prepare them for use, but that seems a lot to explain away as miscalculation.
It appears that they got 200 vials in total to administer

Does this happen everyday, or was this their first day?
HSE don't have a great record at scheduling treatment, appointments or counting patients.

I think this happened on their last day. If it happens in day 1 it's a lot easier to pull other hospital staff in by moving up appointments.

seamus

steddyeddy wrote: »

Seamus is ringing up another hospital (in Dublin even) is "chaos" then you expect very little of your healthcare system.

You quoted a nurse in Tipperary. What frontline workers in Dublin weren't contacted?

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think this happened on their last day. If it happens in day 1 it's a lot easier to pull other hospital staff in by moving up appointments.

This would make a lot of sense, it would be useful to know if this was the case. The vials can't be sent back, they have to be used. So it wouldn't be a case that they had too many doses made up that day, but they had vaccinated everyone they could think of and still had ~20 vials left to be used.

steddyeddy

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

I have and do work with these types.. Frustrating souls. Indecision is generally a decision. A decision not to waste them was a good decision, better than waste.

The main story here is how the Coombe staff recieve vaccination over or ahead of other frontline hospitals dealing with Covid patients (e.g. Nenagh Hospital initially told there was no vaccine for them — apologies if this is already stated in thread).

That surely is a bigger story when trying to suppress this virus than the 16 doses, that in fairness, went to use.

There's definitely a far bigger story here. Friends of mine still working in other hospitals state that administration workers in other hospitals have got it before frontline workers. They have contacted the media as well.