Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Boggles

ArthurDayne wrote: »

In absolutely no other context, in past or present, has it been viewed as controversial or conspiratorial to point out that politicians and State officials will often act out of career self-preservation. For whatever reason, and I would presume that reason is naivety, you find this to be a ‘conspiracy theory’ in the context of Covid.

It's a 'conspiracy theory' because you have offered no tangible evidence to back up your claim or even attempted to.

And now you have diluted your theory further by suggesting that politicians off their own back are "pissing off" the populous more with stay at home restrictions for no valid reason because they want to garner more votes in the next election.

I think we will have to draw a line underneath this Arthur and agree to disagree.

I would like to come more to the middle with you, but you have given me zero to work with.

hamburgham

hamburgham wrote: »

It doesn't make me miserable, it makes me laugh.
It has also revealed so much to me about my fellow countrymen. I now understand how easily people can be brainwashed and how other terrible events in the past happened. It has been an education.

People being brainwashed by listening to those who are actually qualified to talk about a virus about, while the free thinkers know that Naill Boylan, Micheal McNamara, Ivor Cummings etc at the ones who really know whats going on?

Boggles

GazzaL wrote:

When you see how people blindly defend the lockdowns, you can see how people would've defended paedo priests and the mother and baby homes.

Wow, just Wow.

Don't Chute!

hamburgham wrote: »

When this is all over and the reviews start (along with the payback), Pat Kenny will be up there as one of the main contributors to the fear and hysteria. Day in, day out, three hours a day for nine months now stirring the terror pot, broadcasting some of the most ludicrous opinions and suggestions I've ever heard.

All from the safety and comfort of his mansion in Dalkey and safe in the knowledge that his astronomical salary will never be touched. Never forget “the plumes” bull****.

paw patrol

Boggles wrote: »

Wow, just Wow.

he isn't wrong though to a large degree.

I have a whole cohort of people in my life in the 50-70 age bracket who just blindly accept the RTE / Government line and criticise me for my contrarian views.

I should point out that I'm not saying you (and not everybody who disagree with my view ) are like that but many do blindly believe the man on the telly

growleaves

[Deleted User] wrote: »

People being brainwashed by listening to those who are actually qualified to talk about a virus about, while the free thinkers know that Naill Boylan, Micheal McNamara, Ivor Cummings etc at the ones who really know whats going on?

Michael McNamara never claimed to be an expert, though he asked experts to answer a few questions which is nothing to get offended about. He stuck up for the people of Clare as human beings with human needs instead of data points on an Excel spreadsheet. Making community illegal and forcing people to stay indoors alone isn't a purely objective, neutral matter so who has 'qualifications' isn't the only criterion for whether it should happen. A minor bureaucrat's vision of life in which those with technical expertise manage the population dispassionately is only one possible mode of living.

Kunta Kinte

Deleted User wrote: »

Dont watch the news or listen out for daily numbers anymore. All depressing stuff. The country and RTE are being run by clowns. All negative stuff with them

paw patrol

Deleted User wrote: »

People being brainwashed by listening to those who are actually qualified to talk about a virus about, while the free thinkers know that Naill Boylan, Micheal McNamara, Ivor Cummings etc at the ones who really know whats going on?

i want to address this - and I can only speak for myself others may have a different view.

It's not that I would disagree outright with an expert opinion but they are giving an opinion on 1 topic. Only one. That current opinion impacts my entire life which is made up of many more items that that one topic.

Whether I act on that expert opinion is determined by

• If the opinion seems reasonable
• Evidence
• If the cost of the action is worth it

In the case of covid (and it's 99.9% survival rate and shoddy PCR testing) and lockdown - the juice is not worth the squeese.

I don't understand why people with your view don't recognise that there is more to this than just covid numbers and results

Finally many experts in all walks of life have been proven wrong . Ones PHd doesn't make you infallible - I'm sure you can agree.

Blindly following an expert if fine but they won't be there to pick up the pieces.
Micheal Martin won't comfort you when you miss your mates funeral or struggling to pay your mortgage arrears etc...

Multipass

Tork wrote: »

I think the overwhelming negativity in this thread is affecting some people. Especially the ones who are posting here regularly, hour after hour, day after day. Especially the ones who feel strongly that Level 5 restrictions are a disproportionate way of dealing with what they perceive to be a minor illness. They're entitled to their opinion as is everyone in this country. They're entitled to express their opinion too. Using said that, every single one of us is responsible for our own mental health. I genuinely wonder if spending so long in this thread making things better or worse for some. The tone and content of some of the posts here makes me think their authors could do with giving boards, social media and covid related news less of their attention. No matter what they write here, we're going to be in Level 5 for a while yet. No matter how much they write, they are not going to change anybody's mind either. Boards should be a hobby, not a way of life.

It’s the overwhelming negativity of life under lockdown. If they would just lift this 5km bullsh!t maybe a walk in the fresh air might help lift the depression. It’s doing far far more harm than good. My 5km is dangerous for pedestrians, but I hardly care these days.

ArthurDayne

Boggles wrote: »

It's a 'conspiracy theory' because you have offered no tangible evidence to back up your claim or even attempted to.

And now you have diluted your theory further by suggesting that politicians off their own back are "pissing off" the populous more with stay at home restrictions for no valid reason because they want to garner more votes in the next election.

I think we will have to draw a line underneath this Arthur and agree to disagree.

I would like to come more to the middle with you, but you have given me zero to work with.

You aren’t looking to come to the middle at all — there is nothing to work with when you categorise an opinion that career self-preservation can be a factor in State policy as “conspiracy theory”. You demand evidence of this? Well here’s one piece for you — if the government genuinely cared so much about vulnerable people dying, where have they been every other year when old people are left languishing in hospital corridors? Now that Covid is in town, you suddenly seem to believe that politicians in power go to bed at night sleepless about old people dying and not sleepless about how the papers will categorise them as failures. It doesn’t make them bad people, it doesn’t make them incapable of office, it just makes them human and susceptible to making decisions which they believe will make them look better even if they aren’t of entirely sound reasoning. We all do it in our own careers.

So to recap — you dismissed my views as conspiracy theory, you don’t appear to acknowledge the particular social context of Christmas was the key issue in the recent spike, and you haven’t presented any real evidence of how loosening 5km limits would cause the debilitation of the health service (all while also saying we shouldn’t have curfews which arguably would be an even greater deterrent for things like house parties in cities where young people live in close proximity).

So yeah, agree to disagree I guess.

Whatsisname

Deleted User wrote: »

People being brainwashed by listening to those who are actually qualified to talk about a virus about, while the free thinkers know that Naill Boylan, Micheal McNamara, Ivor Cummings etc at the ones who really know whats going on?

I don't actually know who those 3 people are you've mentioned, I've heard of Ivor Cummings through this thread but never watched or read anything he's said.

But theres a weird notion thats crept in that you can never question anyone who's an "expert". I don't know why questioning things has become such a crime.

It's kinda like seeing a film and thinking it wasn't great and someone saying "well you're not a film director, so how would you know what makes a great film?"

Theres been some outlandish claims from so called experts over the course of the pandemic. From putting elderly near an open window in the middle of winter to couples should wear masks during sex.

And obviously theres been more accurate expert opinions too. But it surely shows that you can't blindly accept whatever one expert says.

Isn't the whole point of science to question things repeatedly?

walus

paw patrol wrote: »

i want to address this - and I can only speak for myself others may have a different view.

It's not that I would disagree outright with an expert opinion but they are giving an opinion on 1 topic. Only one. That current opinion impacts my entire life which is made up of many more items that that one topic.

Whether I act on that expert opinion is determined by

• If the opinion seems reasonable
• Evidence
• If the cost of the action is worth it

In the case of covid (and it's 99.9% survival rate and shoddy PCR testing) and lockdown - the juice is not worth the squeese.

I don't understand why people with your view don't recognise that.

Finally many experts in all walks of life have been proven wrong . Ones PHd doesn't make you infallible - I'm sure you can agree.

Blindly following an expert if fine but they won't be there to pick up the pieces.
Micheal Martin won't comfort you when you miss your mates funeral or struggling to pay your mortgage arrears etc...

In fact the more "expert" one is the more likely their are to get down the rabbit hole.

growleaves

growleaves wrote: »

Michael McNamara never claimed to be an expert, though he asked experts to answer a few questions which is nothing to get offended about. He stuck up for the people of Clare as human beings with human needs instead of data points on an Excel spreadsheet. Making community illegal and forcing people to stay indoors alone isn't a purely objective, neutral matter so who has 'qualifications' isn't the only criterion for whether it should happen. A minor bureaucrat's vision of life in which those with technical expertise manage the population dispassionately is only one possible mode of living.

Who is forcing people to stay indoors alone? They can exercise within 5km of home, meet with one other household for the purpose of exercise, and if they live alone form a household bubble with one other household, which essentially allows them to move freely between those houses.

Whatsisname

Whatsisname wrote: »

I don't actually know who those 3 people are you've mentioned, I've heard of Ivor Cummings through this thread but never watched or read anything he's said.

But theres a weird notion thats crept in that you can never question anyone who's an "expert". I don't know why questioning things has become such a crime.

It's kinda like seeing a film and thinking it wasn't great and someone saying "well you're not a film director, so how would you know what makes a great film?"

Theres been some outlandish claims from so called experts over the course of the pandemic. From putting elderly near an open window in the middle of winter to couples should wear masks during sex.

And obviously there's been more accurate expert opinions too. But it surely shows that you can't blindly accept whatever one expert says.

Isn't the whole point of science to question things repeatedly?

Its not about not questioning experts, its about elevating charlatans who offer easy answers and easy solutions based on nothing more than simply wanting it to be true, or positioning themselves as contrarian for the sake of it, above experts.

Boggles will attest that on multiple threads here I have questioned experts on all aspects of the virus. This thread is likely there only place we have agreed on anything on this forum

hamburgham

Whatsisname wrote: »

But theres a weird notion thats crept in that you can never question anyone who's an "expert". I don't know why questioning things has become such a crime.

It's kinda like seeing a film and thinking it wasn't great and someone saying "well you're not a film director, so how would you know what makes a great film?"

Theres been some outlandish claims from so called experts over the course of the pandemic. From putting elderly near an open window in the middle of winter to couples should wear masks during sex.

And obviously theres been more accurate expert opinions too. But it surely shows that you can't blindly accept whatever one expert says.

Isn't the whole point of science to question things repeatedly?

Exactly. The Emperor has no clothes.

Multipass

Deleted User wrote: »

Who is forcing people to stay indoors alone? They can exercise within 5km of home, meet with one other household for the purpose of exercise, and if they live alone form a household bubble with one other household, which essentially allows them to move freely between those houses.

Assuming your area is walkable, assuming you know someone within 5km to exercise with, assuming you have another household to bubble with. Not everyone has any of these things you know.
Anyway I’m off to walk with the trucks and 100kph traffic without footpaths. Wish me luck, I’m sure I’ll return refreshed.

Captain_Crash

Whatsisname wrote: »

theres a weird notion thats crept in that you can never question anyone who's an "expert". I don't know why questioning things has become such a crime.

This is a point I’ve raised in conversation with with friends and family over the course of the past year! In 2019 if a doctor diagnosed someone with something, the common and accepted practice was to get a second opinion.... the very definition of questioning an “expert” opinion!

one armed dwarf

That analogy doesn't really work as you don't have a team of scientists trying to reach some sort of consensus on what your specific ailment is, it's just one person

Captain_Crash

one armed dwarf wrote: »

That analogy doesn't really work as you don't have a team of scientists trying to reach some sort of consensus on what your specific ailment is, it's just one person

Like O’Neill, Sam McConkey, George Lee don’t have a team of scientists behind them when they’re on air spouting sh*te! There is nothing wrong with asking questions! It should be encouraged!

bb1234567

paw patrol wrote: »

i want to address this - and I can only speak for myself others may have a different view.

It's not that I would disagree outright with an expert opinion but they are giving an opinion on 1 topic. Only one. That current opinion impacts my entire life which is made up of many more items that that one topic.

Whether I act on that expert opinion is determined by

• If the opinion seems reasonable
• Evidence
• If the cost of the action is worth it

In the case of covid (and it's 99.9% survival rate and shoddy PCR testing) and lockdown - the juice is not worth the squeese.

I don't understand why people with your view don't recognise that.

Finally many experts in all walks of life have been proven wrong . Ones PHd doesn't make you infallible - I'm sure you can agree.

Blindly following an expert if fine but they won't be there to pick up the pieces.
Micheal Martin won't comfort you when you miss your mates funeral or struggling to pay your mortgage arrears etc...

I suppose because it clearly doesn't have a 99.9% survival rate. Not to mention the large numbers who would be hospitalised in addition to that. Otherwise why would many regions of the world which have lost over 0.2% of their population to COVID and continue to register large death tolls continue to have restrictions in place if apparently it's impossible anybody else will die or be hospitalised because of COVID. Maybe once you've realise that and form a more reasonable argument it will be easier to understand why restrictions are in place. And I say easier because yes I agree it is disproportionate response to the danger, but if it was 99.9% survival rate we would not be here right now, so at least be honest about that if there's any hope of compromise or alternate response

Responder XY

Finding the recent emphasis on the news depressing with talk of increasing restrictions. Have governments forgotten human nature? It's no wonder that so many are opposed to lockdown when they are being given no hope. The focus should be on the light which is most definitely visible at the end of the tunnel now that we have a vaccine. Governments should be telling people what the open up criteria are and when they expect to reach there.
Lockdowns have people at the end of their tether right now. Lockdowns I'm convinced are fully to blame for Ireland having the worst surge in Europe. Everyone had no social contact for months. Everyone knew there was another lockdown coming. Guess what happened? more moderate rules throughout would have limited the damage and not caused a surge.

Governments around Europe need to chart out the exit path now rather than be talking about increasing levels of restrictions, numbers are on the decline all over Europe, there is no need for further restrictions. The ones we have are working. The time has now come to actually explain how we are going to live with the virus. We need to get to whatever post pandemic normality is sooner rather than later - ideally that's largely the same as pre-pandemic normality, but if it's not let's set out what it is and get there ASAP. Current scenarios can never be normal and should only be tolerated to the extent that it can be shown how we can open up within a reasonable short timeframe (talking a few weeks max.) 

We can't keep hiding indoors and think this is all going to get better just because we do. It might get better for other reasons, but it won't be lockdowns alone.

FintanMcluskey

Deleted User wrote: »

People being brainwashed by listening to those who are actually qualified to talk about a virus about, while the free thinkers know that Naill Boylan, Micheal McNamara, Ivor Cummings etc at the ones who really know whats going on?

This is your go to argument.

Pure nonsense of course because they don’t get quoted here.

Your point is not only patronising it’s also fictional.

Dr Jack Lambert, Dr Martin Feeley and Dr John Lee are regularly quoted, you don’t however have any hope of refuting their argument without resorting to straw man tactics.

Ashleigh1986

One thing for sure regarding this " pandemic ".
It's far easier to deal with if your in a job ,that hasn't effected your salary / wages by one cent , than been self employed and trying to live off pup payment .
Over 1000 gardai out of work at the moment with less than 10% of them actually having the virus .
Teachers at home on full pay refusing to go back to work .
Give them the pup payment and let's see them struggle to pay their mortgage / rent / bills .
O but of course .... " we are all in this together " !!!!!!!

bb1234567

Captain_Crash wrote: »

This is a point I’ve raised in conversation with with friends and family over the course of the past year! In 2019 if a doctor diagnosed someone with something, the common and accepted practice was to get a second opinion.... the very definition of questioning an “expert” opinion!

Yes, you're right, and I agree that people should not accept current advice so completely without question and I especially dislike the current trend of villanisation of anybody who finds fault or mistake in current health/government guidelines and rules. But the difference is before 2020 getting second opinion from expert as in the example of the doctor was simply usually to confirm the opinion of the first expert and settle any niggling doubts. It was not a deliberate intention to find an expert with a completely contrary view, which is what most people who are 'sceptical ' of the need/validity for COVID restrictions usually are trying to do

one armed dwarf

Advice should be questioned, yes, but it's still not the same as a single doctor giving a medical diagnosis. It's not as if we are the only country in the world to resort to lockdown as a nuclear measure in the face of a crisis that's left our control.

I think we have an unusually parochial fixation on our own public health response as well, or at least in the case when it's countries that aren't Sweden. You notice it in this thread when people so quickly dismiss the horrible situation ongoing in UK hospitals when we have imported that same variant onto our island. You have to treat that as empirical evidence when it comes to a proportional response to the virus. It's a different country but one dealing with a culture very similar to ours and with a disease showing the same properties. Dismissing that as 'oh, you might as well list Timbuktu hospitalisations' is laughbably naive

Now I don't know that I'd say that all of our level 5 restrictions are 'proportional', but the more serious the situation the less latitude left to us for a more surgical suppression of this thing. To me 'lockdown' is just a measure of how we failed to keep things under control with existing measures, when it's gotten too late for a more targeted and careful approach

Kunta Kinte

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

One thing for sure regarding this " pandemic ".
It's far easier to deal with if your in a job ,that hasn't effected your salary / wages by one cent , than been self employed and trying to live off pup payment .
Over 1000 gardai out of work at the moment with less than 10% of them actually having the virus .
Teachers at home on full pay refusing to go back to work .
Give them the pup payment and let's see them struggle to pay their mortgage / rent / bills .
O but of course .... " we are all in this together " !!!!!!!

The majority of teachers are teaching online. but sure don`t let facts get in the way of a bash the teachers rant.

Also what evidence do you have to back up your claim that here are "over 1000 gardai out of work at the moment with less than 10% of them actually having the virus"?

Captain_Crash

bb1234567 wrote: »

Yes, you're right, and I agree that people should not accept current advice so completely without question and I especially dislike the current trend of villanisation of anybody who finds fault or mistake in current health/government guidelines and rules. But the difference is before 2020 getting second opinion from expert as in the example of the doctor was simply usually to confirm the opinion of the first expert and settle any niggling doubts. It was not a deliberate intention to find an expert with a completely contrary view, which is what most people who are 'sceptical ' of the need/validity for COVID restrictions usually are trying to do

That’s a valid point, but I was referring more to people being shouted down for merely questioning advice being given by NPHET, not people intentionally looking for alternative views, of which there are many on this very thread.

Captain_Crash

one armed dwarf wrote: »

It's not as if we are the only country in the world to resort to lockdown as a nuclear measure in the face of a crisis that's left our control.

I think we’re the only developed western democracy who have resorted to lockdown not as a measure but as a policy!

Captain_Crash

Captain_Crash wrote: »

This is a point I’ve raised in conversation with with friends and family over the course of the past year! In 2019 if a doctor diagnosed someone with something, the common and accepted practice was to get a second opinion.... the very definition of questioning an “expert” opinion!

When was the common practice to get a second opinion?

FintanMcluskey

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is your go to argument.

Pure nonsense of course because they don’t get quoted here.

Your point is not only patronising it’s also fictional.

Dr Jack Lambert, Dr Martin Feeley and Dr John Lee are regularly quoted, you don’t however have any hope of refuting their argument without resorting to straw man tactics.

None of whom are experts in the field.