Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Ashleigh1986

Kunta Kinte wrote: »

The majority of teachers are teaching online. but sure don`t let facts get in the way of a bash the teachers rant.

Also what evidence do you have to back up your claim that here are "over 1000 gardai out of work at the moment with less than 10% of them actually having the virus"?

Irish times last Monday .. It's actually 1500 to 1600 members of gardai out of work .

Mr. Karate

Captain_Crash wrote: »

Like O’Neill, Sam McConkey, George Lee don’t have a team of scientists behind them when they’re on air spouting sh*te! There is nothing wrong with asking questions! It should be encouraged!

Much like Global Warming. Covid has morphed into a religion for certain people. Questioning Holohan and his love affair with never ending lockdowns is blasphemy and heresy to these people.

Hitchens

Why do the media and medical people keep banging on about the ICU's being close to capacity? WTF can WE do about that?

Tenzor07

Hitchens wrote: »

Why do the media and medical people keep banging on about the ICU's being close to capacity? WTF can WE do about that?

Because it's our fault(the Irish public) that in a country of around 5 million people we've only(previously) got 220 ICU beds....Not like the HSE has a €24 billion budget...

ArthurDayne

one armed dwarf wrote: »

Advice should be questioned, yes, but it's still not the same as a single doctor giving a medical diagnosis. It's not as if we are the only country in the world to resort to lockdown as a nuclear measure in the face of a crisis that's left our control.

I think we have an unusually parochial fixation on our own public health response as well, or at least in the case when it's countries that aren't Sweden. You notice it in this thread when people so quickly dismiss the horrible situation ongoing in UK hospitals when we have imported that same variant onto our island. You have to treat that as empirical evidence when it comes to a proportional response to the virus. It's a different country but one dealing with a culture very similar to ours and with a disease showing the same properties. Dismissing that as 'oh, you might as well list Timbuktu hospitalisations' is laughbably naive

Now I don't know that I'd say that all of our level 5 restrictions are 'proportional', but the more serious the situation the less latitude left to us for a more surgical suppression of this thing. To me 'lockdown' is just a measure of how we failed to keep things under control with existing measures, when it's gotten too late for a more targeted and careful approach

Reasonable comments but I think there is an equal fixation with believing that the UK context is analogous to here purely because of “cultural” similarities, but ignoring what are absolutely massive demographic differences. Population density and the unfortunate fact that BAME communities are being disproportionately affected are two considerations — and so it is frustrating sometimes to hear about the UK experience being almost identically illustrative for Irish purposes.

I can see your rationale for the “more serious situation = less latitude” theme you mention, but I think the question of proportionality should still be central, not peripheral. I say that because the longer and harsher restrictions are, the more damage is done. Such damage seems abstract to us now when faced with an immediate problem, but it won’t be abstract for much longer when the consequences become clearer around the world.

The problem is that people are in in such a mode of fear and panic that they are of the view that all action must be hyper-pre-emptive, even though experiences even in the dense Blue Banana population countries show that you can get the situation back under control with lockdowns if it is really needed. The spectre that existed last March that the situation getting out of control would cause a long term and irretrievable debilitation of the health service just has not played out — even in countries where control was lost. And we as a country have geographic, demographic and social advantages in that endeavour.

But if you’re a politician, why take the risk of proportionality ? They don’t have much to gain from it, but everything to lose.

Kunta Kinte

Hitchens wrote: »

Why do the media and medical people keep banging on about the ICU's being close to capacity? WTF can WE do about that?

Maybe do our best to help avoid hospitals and ICUs being stretched beyond capacity? Obvious really.

Kunta Kinte

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

Irish times last Monday .. It's actually 1500 to 1600 members of gardai out of work .

Link to the full article?

Boggles

ArthurDayne wrote: »

You aren’t looking to come to the middle at all — there is nothing to work with when you categorise an opinion that career self-preservation can be a factor in State policy as “conspiracy theory”. You demand evidence of this? Well here’s one piece for you — if the government genuinely cared so much about vulnerable people dying, where have they been every other year when old people are left languishing in hospital corridors? Now that Covid is in town, you suddenly seem to believe that politicians in power go to bed at night sleepless about old people dying and not sleepless about how the papers will categorise them as failures. It doesn’t make them bad people, it doesn’t make them incapable of office, it just makes them human and susceptible to making decisions which they believe will make them look better even if they aren’t of entirely sound reasoning. We all do it in our own careers.

So to recap — you dismissed my views as conspiracy theory, you don’t appear to acknowledge the particular social context of Christmas was the key issue in the recent spike, and you haven’t presented any real evidence of how loosening 5km limits would cause the debilitation of the health service (all while also saying we shouldn’t have curfews which arguably would be an even greater deterrent for things like house parties in cities where young people live in close proximity).

So yeah, agree to disagree I guess.

Arthur you have just descended into nonsensical ranting and raving, fantasizing about what I think politicians are doing before they go to bed.

I think when it gets to that stage we have no option but to leave there.

Wouldn't you agree?

Boggles

paw patrol wrote: »

he isn't wrong though to a large degree.

I have a whole cohort of people in my life in the 50-70 age bracket who just blindly accept the RTE / Government line and criticise me for my contrarian views.

I very much doubt your friends would defend child rapists.

Would you prefer if your friends got their information form BillyBob55 on twitter who always has the inside scope?

I’m in A+E in one of Dublins hospitals right now. I’d rather not say which one, at least until I’m gone. And it’s nothing life threatening or majorly serious.

the time from check in to triage was less than 10 minutes!!!

Time from triage to seeing a doctor was less than 20 minutes!!

This hospital is dead. And the doctor admitted it. He said they are able to do all kinds of tests today because they are so quiet.

While ICU may be busy, it’s definitely fair to say that hospitals in general are dead.

average_runner

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Because it's our fault(the Irish public) that in a country of around 5 million people we've only(previously) got 220 ICU beds....Not like the HSE has a €24 billion budget...

When you have unions involved not will ever get done in this country.

We had a chance in early 2010, to bankrupt out the PS and redo properly, but we failed to do it.


We had a chance to bring in a proper tax system where all workers pays tax, we failed to it.


Instead we are country that looks after people who want everything for nothing.

Ashleigh1986

Ashleigh1986 wrote: »

One thing for sure regarding this " pandemic ".
It's far easier to deal with if your in a job ,that hasn't effected your salary / wages by one cent , than been self employed and trying to live off pup payment .
Over 1000 gardai out of work at the moment with less than 10% of them actually having the virus .
Teachers at home on full pay refusing to go back to work .
Give them the pup payment and let's see them struggle to pay their mortgage / rent / bills .
O but of course .... " we are all in this together " !!!!!!!

The "we're all in this together" bullsh1t was exploded months ago. Some people are benefitting more from lockdown economically than ever before. A pontificator dipped into this thread lately with the finger wagging furiously, of course he would with a job to lean on every day. Many of us are denied the privilege of employment courtesy of being sacrificial lambs for a 1% minority/mediocre ICU capacity, why wouldn't this lead to frustration and resentment. The "greater good" is the patronising line fed to the public by the salaried and secure, PUP for a month would wither their arrogant mouthpiece.

average_runner

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m in A+E in one of Dublins hospitals right now. I’d rather not say which one, at least until I’m gone. And it’s nothing life threatening or majorly serious.

the time from check in to triage was less than 10 minutes!!!

Time from triage to seeing a doctor was less than 20 minutes!!

This hospital is dead. And the doctor admitted it. He said they are able to do all kinds of tests today because they are so quiet.

While ICU may be busy, it’s definitely fair to say that hospitals in general are dead.

A&E should be dead, you should only go there if real emergency. One thing this pandemic has thought us, is that people use A&E when no need to.


Need to enforce strict rules going forward in A&E, its not the place you to if you have a cold.


GP's in dublin are pretty useless compare to the rest of the country. A GP in the country will stitch you if needs be, in Dublin you go to A&E


When you say admitted, how many doctors saw you? There is a protocol here so you should know it now

Irish Steve

Hitchens wrote: »

Why do the media and medical people keep banging on about the ICU's being close to capacity? WTF can WE do about that?

IF you don't know what WE can do at this stage, there's not a lot of hope for us.

WE can STAY AT HOME, make sure we're doing the basic hygiene stuff like washing hands, avoid contacts with people from outside of our household, even for what would normally be seen as "normal social" contacts. Limit trips out for shopping to the basics, and make as few trips as possible. The younger generations need to be persuaded that mixing with their friends without masks and social distancing is not acceptable right now.

And unfortunately, and this will get some people well wound, we may as well forget drinks sessions with mates, overseas holidays and wet pub pints for the next couple of months at least, until the numbers come down. While there has been reasonable acceptance of limits, there are some who seem to be determined to bury their heads in the sand and pretend that Covid is a figment of some people's imagination, and not that serious, so we supposedly can ignore it.

Spain doesn't want holiday visitors till much later in the year, and with the new variants that seem to be emerging, Europe are not happy about where things are going right now, so it's getting worrying that the scientific people know something that they don't want to talk about too widely.

growleaves

Deleted User wrote: »

None of whom are experts in the field.

Jack Lambert is a Consultant in Infectious Diseases at the Mater Hospital.

FintanMcluskey

growleaves wrote: »

Jack Lambert is a Consultant in Infectious Diseases at the Mater Hospital.

It’s brilliant isn’t it!

He’s knows nothing about the matter according to some

Boggles

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It’s brilliant isn’t it!

He’s knows nothing about the matter according to some

No he works in the Mater.

I'll get my coat.

FintanMcluskey

Boggles wrote: »

No he works in the Mater.

I'll get my coat.

Back of the net!

GazzaL

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m in A+E in one of Dublins hospitals right now. I’d rather not say which one, at least until I’m gone. And it’s nothing life threatening or majorly serious.

the time from check in to triage was less than 10 minutes!!!

Time from triage to seeing a doctor was less than 20 minutes!!

This hospital is dead. And the doctor admitted it. He said they are able to do all kinds of tests today because they are so quiet.

While ICU may be busy, it’s definitely fair to say that hospitals in general are dead.

I was in A&E multiple times during the first lockdown and it was exactly the same as you described.

Windmill100000

average_runner wrote: »

A&E should be dead, you should only go there if real emergency. One thing this pandemic has thought us, is that people use A&E when no need to.


Need to enforce strict rules going forward in A&E, its not the place you to if you have a cold.


GP's in dublin are pretty useless compare to the rest of the country. A GP in the country will stitch you if needs be, in Dublin you go to A&E


When you say admitted, how many doctors saw you? There is a protocol here so you should know it now

Yes, I agree. People are staying away from A&E because they have been told to unless it is a genuine emergency and also out of fear as that is the one place you can guarantee there are people who are covid positive.

Given that regular wards have been turned into isolated covid wards, there is a lot less available beds in hospital so those wards that are still 'regular' wards are likely full. I think the data posted in recent weeks shows the limited number of beds nationally. I think that's posted on the main covid thread.

An empty A&E is not indicative of an empty hospital by any stretch. Some hospitals will have beds available, but others won't.

Red Silurian

You have to consider as well that with the measures that are in place there are far fewer drunken falls and other injuries that come from socialising so A+Es will be quieter as a result of that also

Not having a go at any particular sector - I know somebody who wound up in A+E with a broken arm after an unfortunate incidence during a coffee date

Boggles

It's like someone ranting and raving at the receptionist in a hotel for having no vacancies because they can't see anyone in the lobby.

hamburgham

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m in A+E in one of Dublins hospitals right now. I’d rather not say which one, at least until I’m gone. And it’s nothing life threatening or majorly serious.

the time from check in to triage was less than 10 minutes!!!

Time from triage to seeing a doctor was less than 20 minutes!!

This hospital is dead. And the doctor admitted it. He said they are able to do all kinds of tests today because they are so quiet.

While ICU may be busy, it’s definitely fair to say that hospitals in general are dead.

Yes, I got a blood test at one Dublin hospital within 4 days,I was the only person there. I believe the Mater hasn't been doing blood tests for outpatients since last March though.

hamburgham

growleaves wrote: »

Jack Lambert is a Consultant in Infectious Diseases at the Mater Hospital.

Not suprising that he didn't recognize the name as he's not 'on message' so doesn't get the exposure that the other "experts" do.

Ginger n Lemon

Arghus wrote: »

I totally understand why people are fed up and why they don't want to listen to the news anymore. The doom and gloom is all pervasive at times and, yes, the media does favour the negative over the neutral or positive. It wears on people and leaves them feeling stressed and depressed.

But - and now I expect enormous blowback on the thread for saying this - I think following what is happening and trying to separate the wheat from the chaff in terms of the information can actually help mentally, at least, for me, it does.

For instance, I do watch the NPHET briefings - which I know many on here wouldn't do in a million years and look if you don't, you don't...whatever works for you - and I didn't come away from this evenings feeling depressed.

Despite their reputation these briefings aren't doomfests. Yes, it's clear that hospitals are in a bad way at the moment, that deaths are unfortunately quite high and will be a while coming down and that we still have a way to go, but equally it was also clear that the situation is beginning to turn around relative to where we were previously and that we can get through this particularly awful period. That there will be a way through this.

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m in A+E in one of Dublins hospitals right now. I’d rather not say which one, at least until I’m gone. And it’s nothing life threatening or majorly serious.

the time from check in to triage was less than 10 minutes!!!

Time from triage to seeing a doctor was less than 20 minutes!!

This hospital is dead. And the doctor admitted it. He said they are able to do all kinds of tests today because they are so quiet.

While ICU may be busy, it’s definitely fair to say that hospitals in general are dead.

hamburgham wrote: »

Yes, I got a blood test at one Dublin hospital within 4 days,I was the only person there. I believe the Mater hasn't been doing blood tests for outpatients since last March though.

Did hospitals become empty overnight? Or are the NPHET briefings Arghus is tuning in to daily (which is concerning in itself lol) are full of crap?

Boggles - I ll beat you to it.

Irish Steve

hamburgham wrote: »

Yes, I got a blood test at one Dublin hospital within 4 days,I was the only person there. I believe the Mater hasn't been doing blood tests for outpatients since last March though.

A lot of the specialist services are still very much operating, albeit at reduced capacity because some of their staff have been seconded to Covid duties, but they have (at last) sorted out getting patients in at the time they need to come, rather than having a waiting room heaving with people, all called for the one time. My wife has had a number of specific visits to the Mater Eye department over the last 12 months, and there's never been more than 2 or 3 people there at the same time, whereas in earlier pre Covid times, there were regularly 20 or 30 people there.

Boggles

Ginger n Lemon wrote: »

Did hospitals become empty overnight?

Nope, currently about 160 odd people on trolleys.

A lot of elective surgeries have been cancelled because of lack of ICU, post emergency care still continues all be it at a reduced rate to avoid crowding.

They have had to start shuffling ICU patients to other hospitals which is never ideal.

Penfailed

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

This is your go to argument.

Pure nonsense of course because they don’t get quoted here.

Your point is not only patronising it’s also fictional.

Dr Jack Lambert, Dr Martin Feeley and Dr John Lee are regularly quoted, you don’t however have any hope of refuting their argument without resorting to straw man tactics.

You quoted or supported Ivor Cummins' comments quite often over the summer.

celt262

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I’m in A+E in one of Dublins hospitals right now. I’d rather not say which one, at least until I’m gone. And it’s nothing life threatening or majorly serious.

the time from check in to triage was less than 10 minutes!!!

Time from triage to seeing a doctor was less than 20 minutes!!

This hospital is dead. And the doctor admitted it. He said they are able to do all kinds of tests today because they are so quiet.

While ICU may be busy, it’s definitely fair to say that hospitals in general are dead.

Sure tip up to the wards and see if they are dead.

FintanMcluskey

Penfailed wrote: »

You quoted or supported Ivor Cummins' comments quite often over the summer.

Have you proof of that?

No you don’t, because I didn’t. It’s childish at this stage

I made sure my sources would be credible.