Joe Biden Presidency thread *Please read OP - Threadbanned Users Added 4/5/21*

BruteStock

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430912#Comment_118430912

Care to answer the question?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430857#Comment_118430857

an organized attempt by a group of people to defeat their government and take control of their country, usually by violence

Even the FBI admitted this wasn’t an organised attack so it can’t be an insurrection. We have yet to find out how many FBI informants were there that day but judging by court records it’s a lot.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-fbi-finds-scant-evidence-us-capitol-attack-was-coordinated-sources-2021-08-20/

Cody montana

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430913#Comment_118430913

Why do you keep deflecting?

Chicago is the third largest city in USA, what happened there?

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430672#Comment_118430672

Was that not the 1916 rising effectively (albeit it not dribbling idiots doing it), was it a dramatic event in Irish history?

Just because those who perpetrated it were dumber than a bag of spanners and crazier than a bag of cats, doesn't mean the intent wasn't there to try and take control of the government. Their ineptitude doesn't pardon the intent.

y0ssar1an22

its been a while since i've commented here, and i was a big trump supporter.

it pains me to say it, but biden has been an excellent president thus far.

the economy is under control, inflation is just silly business that no one needs to worry about.

the withdrawal from afghanistan was carried out efficiently and surgically. i have no doubt joe got all americans home safely. i reckon books and movies will be made about that.

the huge number of americans dying from fentanyl overdoses can clearly be increased. thankfully joe enacted an executive order that let the drugs flow right in (any chance now in ireland of getting some please and thank you?!)

murders are hugely through the roof, and that's an achievement in itself.

take a bow joe, you old codger; but a solid guy you are

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430985#Comment_118430985

I'm not sure if they did have that intent. They certainly intended to protest and disrupt the government, but the earlier poster likely has it correct that it is doubtful many of them had a particular plan after taking over Capitol Hill (And most folks probably didn't even plan for that much, just decided to follow along once the doors were open). Once there, it was "now what? Oh, cool, I can sit on the Speaker's Chair and kick my feet up on Pelosi's desk and smash her table lamp". That's not going to take control of the government. It won't even keep Trump in office. The CHAZ example is not invalid, there they actually did prevent the effective governance of a geographic area for a few days. There is a reason why, though the US Government has a criminal charge of insurrection, not one of the hundreds of people arrested were charged with insurrection or sedition.

It's like all those reports coming out, I saw one a week or two ago, saying how close we are to a coup. I have seen absolutely nothing even close to resembling the capability of a coup. We're closer to secession or civil war than we are to a coup. For a coup to happen, there has to be force behind it. From where? The military certainly weren't about to get behind it. The police weren't about to get behind it.

The symbolism of people refusing to accept the election is important and that sort of attitude needs to be gotten rid of (And Biden's speech today was a pretty good shot), but the practical realities of the event were not as dramatic as implied. There were enough protestors to overwhelm the capitol police, but in terms of the US population, it was a very, very small minority.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431240#Comment_118431240

The symbolism of people refusing to accept the election is important and that sort of attitude needs to be gotten rid of (And Biden's speech today was a pretty good shot), but the practical realities of the event were not as dramatic as implied. There were enough protestors to overwhelm the capitol police, but in terms of the US population, it was a very, very small minority.

Those involved at the front line of any uprising, coup, insurrection, whatever you want to call it are always the very very small minority in terms of a countries population. For Jan 6th to play out as it did with all the evidence of it being setup to cause the disruption it did is a massively significant event in the lifespan of the US.

To see the events play out as they did are up there in terms of watch dramatic events in my lifetime in a similar fashion as to how 9/11 was, or the Challenger disaster. I will never forget it. It's hugely significant to have had the sitting President motivate his supporters to carry out an insurrection and for the Captiol to have been overrun and the Confederate flag paraded in its corridors (not that that was or is directly related to Trump).

That 74M people voted for the guy who instigated the events of the 6th is the current bookies favourite for the 2024 Presidential election is evidence of how widely the rotten apple has spoiled the barrel. But I agree, we are unlikely to see a coup. The 2 parties are so evenly split throughout US society that I doubt there will ever be a situation where a group can gain sufficient control of enough of the armed forces to actually carry one out. But, that is not to say that Trump or his close circle didn't explore such an option.

Christy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431240#Comment_118431240

They had jumpers saying civil war. Someone was filmed complaining that they had been maced during the revolution attempt. I don't know what you want really.

As for the success many honestly believed that they would get the support of the military. I am not saying they had much of a chance of winning but they believed they would get the military and the police on their side. For a coup to happen it doesn't need force. For it to be successful it has to have force behind it. These people are not bright, that does not mean they are harmless or that they were not attempting a coup. FFS they were asking Trump to save them from prison and pardon them as if he would do something for someone else.

This is just trying to be dismissive, oh well people found themselves at a riot and just joined in for the craic like but anyway moving on.

Igotadose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431240#Comment_118431240

First, it wasn't well organized because Trump's followers by and large swim in the shallow end of the intelligence pool. But, the lawyers who came up with the "Coup powerpoint" aren't as stupid, and had a pretty good plan. Disrupt the counting, throw it back into the House which votes by state. Might've worked. Might work again in the future without some Constitutional reform, which is nigh unto impossible.

Second, the people that 'traveled' there took organized bus trips, private planes, etc. Not like they just stumbled into a riot in downtown DC. The Investigative committee is looking into the financing of some of this, which sadly will take a lot of time but might yield some pretty good results.

Third, something you may have some insight into, what happened with the National Guard? Why did their generals like Charles Flynn (Mike's brother) and Walter Piatt keep the guard in reserve and then lie about it? You probably wouldn't have needed that many guard to deter the mob, given their equipment and training and general impressiveness. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/12/06/jan-6-generals-lied-ex-dc-guard-official-523777

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430645#Comment_118430645

It's all very Trumpian. No wonder she is more unpopular than all of her predecessors over the last few regimes.

WrenBoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431484#Comment_118431484

The only possible reason one wouldn't be banging the Kamala for president drum is because they are sexist racists. 🙄

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118430658#Comment_118430658

I think you need to go and watch videos of 9/11 to remind yourself of the scale of that event. People literally jumping to there death as there only other option was to burn alive. It is an absolute travesty to create anologies between that and Jan 6th. Jan 6th was reprehensible, however, it was about the most benign insurrection that you are likely to ever see.

I couldn't tell you want i was doing on Jan 6th, other then I watched bits and bobs of the news. I remember 9/11 far more vividly, what I did that day, when I found out about the attacks, and remember being glued to the TV watching it, even though I wasn't even yet a teenager.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431267#Comment_118431267

You cannot look at the riots in the Capitol in isolation , they have to be considered in the wider context of all of the things that Trump and team were doing to over-turn the election.

Those people on the ground weren't part of a specifically organised "insurrection" but they were pointed there to aid Donald Trumps plan to overturn the election .

So ,while they themselves didn't have a "plan" they were absolutely 100% a component of an attempted Coup (or actually an Autogolpe to be technically accurate) by Trump.

Trump wanted them there causing trouble , ideally fighting with BLM/Democrat supporters. He absolutely categorically wanted rioting in the streets of Washington , but he didn't get the kind of riots he was hoping for because BLM et al didn't turn up.

It's clear that the plan was for there to be "trouble" on January 6th to provide Trump with the cover to declare some kind of emergency and suspend the certification process which would then allow him to pile the pressure on Pence to follow the "Eastman plan" to over-turn the result.

If BLM had turned up , Trump would have been all over the media screaming about the "violent mob" attacking "Patriots who loved their country" blah blah blah.

But what he got was just his supporters running amok in the Capitol with lots of footage of Trump flags being used to smash windows/doors or to attack various Law Enforcement people , hence his utter silence for hours and hours.

Trump didn't want his supporters attacking the capitol , but he absolutely wanted them in Washington causing trouble and ideally fighting "the radical left mob" as it was part of his larger plan to over-turn the results illegally.

tl;dr - Yes the Capitol riots were part of a plan to over-turn the elections , but just like everything that Trump touches it went badly wrong on the day.

Doesn't make them or him any less guilty though.

The Quintessence Model

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431632#Comment_118431632

I wouldn't even bother replying to that shite.

Igotadose

"I'm deeply disappointed we don't have better leadership in the Republican Party to restore the Constitution." - Dick Cheney, 6 Jan 2022.

Nice quote.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118428330#Comment_118428330

This can be said word-for-word about trump and hilary clinton. Haven't seen Biden's team attempt to set up a Social Media called GETHM or something.

https://kotaku.com/sonic-smut-is-flooding-trump-s-new-social-network-1847226591

The unpleasantly named GETTR - Hilary Clinton lives rent-free in that dude's head

Knew I had heard that term before...

The blinkers are AMAZING

Edit: Adding link from 2021

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118429273#Comment_118429273

I don't what you watched live on TV. I watched thousands of traitor terrorists waiving trump flags storm Capitol Building attempting to overthrow the election process.

Did... Did you see something different?

Dr. Bre

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431784#Comment_118431784

Cheney lol - Neo Con involved in loads of wars and was VP when Bush stole the election. Now that was election fraud

osarusan

It’s quite a stretch to call it a coup or insurrection. I mean, yes, in the feeble and gullible minds of those involved, I suppose there was some vague notion of ‘doing something’ and they caused damage and could easily have done more damage, so it is something to take very seriously…but not a coup or insurrection, not in any meaningful way.

That said, I have no issue with Biden and Harris extracting every ounce of political gain out if it, any politician would do so if presented with the opportunity.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431971#Comment_118431971

You are completely ignoring the well planned campaign that Trump ran to bring it to that point. The insurrection was, in of itself, not the outcome. It was a show of strength, aimed at 'persuading' any undecided GOP'ers to side with the Trump plan to throw out the votes. Have you read 'Peril'? Listening to Robert Costa? There is little doubt remaining that, although in the end mercifully the insurrection failed, it got very close to achieving it aims. A huge amount of pressure was put on Mike Pence by Trump so cancel the votes. Trump attempted to use the size of the crowd to influence Pence.

It is why Trump didn't immediately call for the insurrectionists to disperse, they were carrying out the plan. Put the fear of god into the Senators. Show that the very House in which they worked was vulnerable. If we can get this close this time, imagine next time.

Trump tried to overturn the election, and continues to this day to spout the lie that the election was a fraud. He attempted to illegally stay in office. I recall prior to the election many mused about what would happen if Trump refused to leave. Well, he came very close to that option, not just refusing to leave but actively attempting to override democracy.

Same as 9/11 was never aimed at actually destroying the US, it was a target to create fear and show the US was vulnerable. Taking your own value of how little the insurrection actually achieved, one could argue that 9/11, although terrible and a massive loss of life, did little in terms of direct impact so what is everyone so worried about!

hotmail.com

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118431600#Comment_118431600

Indeed. I'm beginning to wonder is Trumpian just another term for American.

joseywhales

Why are we still hearing about this storming of the capitol. They should just prosecute everyone that they can and be done with it. What I really don't understand was why there wasn't like 100 armed guards shooting to kill at the perimeter. Like why didn't they kill the protestors who breached? It would not have been undue force. Would they react the same if the white house was stormed? They would have shot maybe ten people before the rest would have scattered and it wouldn't have looked like such a joke internationally.

Somewhat telling that posters who were having a fit over somebody laughing when he brought up broiled chicken as evidence of something but they're not lifting anything from yesterday's press conference. And the reason is, it was an excellent speech and it was a pretty damning reflection of the effort to undermine democracy this time last year. Plus we've all watched it so harder to misrepresent.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432362#Comment_118432362

Did you listen to the police officers testimony at congress? They simply never believed this could happen. They weren't prepared. They also felt that shooting at the insurrectionists would likely escalate it due to many of the insurrectionists having weapons. (one police office mentioned a knife for example).

It is not unknown for authorities to simply fail to act out of not understanding the true extent of what is happening. There is little doubt that had this been a load of immigrants then more force would have been used, but this was largely middle America, these were our people.

And one was killed. And guess you they blamed for that. Not the woman herself, no. Many, on here as well, have tried to paint her as a patriot that simply wanted to talk and they should have let her in!

There was clearly a massive failure in policing that day. From the lack of national guard, lack of preparation, lack of any coherent plan to deal with so many protestors.

As to why we are still hearing about it? Well, one can't move until the truth is known and acknowledged. Many GOP'ers continue to claim nothing of any consequence happened. Trump continues to say it was peaceful. The moving on they are talking about is simply forgetting about it.

Funnily they don't seem to have the same concern about moving on from the claims of voter fraud.

duploelabs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432362#Comment_118432362

This details the police response on the day and what they had to deal with

https://youtu.be/CIVbbu_5TAg

osarusan

@Leroy42

I don't disagree that it took place within the context of a broader campaign to try and overturn the results. I don't even disagree that it can accurately be termed an 'attack on democracy'.

But I would disagree about the role that it played in that wider campaign. If you listen to Peter Navarro's description of the 'Green Bay Sweep', they had plans in place (however realistic/unrealistic) to get members of congress to question the validity of the results and potentially certain states would decertify the results, and things would move to the House of Representatives. In Navarro's own words: "There is a provision to go, rather than through the Electoral College, to the House of Representatives. And all that's required was peace and calm on Capitol Hill." So I'm not sure that the violence on Capitol Hill helped in the way you suggest - instead, maybe it could even be argued that it made those lawmakers less likely to go through with the plan as it would be seen as giving in to the violence. Trump riling up those gullible clowns into a display of violence may have hindered his own team's plans.

We have a lot of common ground on the wider efforts to overturn the results, for sure. But I don't agree that what happened in Washington, in and of itself, can meaningfully be described as a coup or insurrection, and it has been described that way (in and of itself).

joseywhales

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432471#Comment_118432471

It can only go down as incompetence. They were vastly outnumbered which should lead one toward immediate lethal force, not acquiescence. Being passive is more dangerous in my opinion. Once the protestors advance beyond the boundary using force, the guards are no longer responsible for their safety, they should have been dispatched. In reality these protestors were out for a jaunt, there would have been a massive retreat if protestors started to be shot. Like some of these guys physically attacked police, you can be shot for picking up a hair brush in this country. It's baffling.

Leroy42

Totally agree on the incompetence. I was amazed, even watching it, at just how restrained the police were. Had these been a BLM march, a group of muslims etc then things would have been different. But this was a largely middle America group. I think that many just assumed that after a bit of jostling most people would disperse.

I also think, and I could be wrong, that Capital police are not the usual police, as in they are not beat cops or used to dealing with these types of situations. Mostly crowd control. Never have they been faced with a domestic threat that they faced, and as such it seemed to never really dawn on them what they were actually facing. Many in the US have been conditioned to believe that it foreigners that are the only threat. 6th showed, again, that it the domestic terrorism and violence that is just as dangerous, and maybe even more so.

It turns out that once they got the initial breakthrough then things quickly escalated. Of course they were some that went in with the intention of doing real damage (we all say the pics of the guys with zip ties etc) but it was really the action of the crowd.

But it is what it is. Those people that took part, whether they planned on it when they left their house/hotel that morning, were part of the insurrection. I get the feeling that many of them really believed that the votes would be cast out and they were ensuring it would happen and they could all have a great big party. They would sit in the chamber, the king would make his triumphant return!

And one must remember the political atmosphere at the time. Imagine yourself as the head of the police force, that gave the order to use lethal force. Can you imagine the vitriol, the attacks, the condemation, that would have come from Fox, Trump, QAnon etc etc. And still today, despite all the convictions and admissions, many are still pushing the line that this was little more than a Labour Day picnic that got out of hand. One must take that atmosphere into account. Trump, still officially POTUS, never called for it. He even said they were doing the right thing. So a very strong leader is required to rise above all that.

That leader didn't seem to be around.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432610#Comment_118432610

If you look at what Navarro said , it was them entering the Capitol rather than them being in Washington was the problem.

The problem that Navarro had was the cancellation of activities in Congress not the existence of the rioters - They'd have been perfectly happy with them raging up and down the streets outside feeding the righteous indignation of the various GOP mouthpieces holding forth trying to overturn the election - "Listen to all those Patriots outside , they know what we should do!!!" blah blah blah.

For me the single critical element to how things unfolded is the fact that the "other side" stayed at home. Had there been any kind of counter-protest (which Trump et al definitely expected) it would have worked very strongly in favour of the wider Trump efforts.

And - If BLM et al were there you can absolutely guarantee that the National Guard would have been called in instantly to get stuck in to them. Trump and his cronies delayed and hindered their arrival because they were desperate not to have footage of Trump supporters fighting with Guardsmen.

Whoever led the call for the counter-protest not to happen and those that drove the #don'ttakethebait hash tag ultimately deserve quite a bit of thanks I think.

TheIrishGrover

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118432610#Comment_118432610

But I would disagree about the role that it played in that wider campaign. If you listen to Peter Navarro's description of the 'Green Bay Sweep', they had plans in place (however realistic/unrealistic) to get members of congress to question the validity of the results and potentially certain states would decertify the results, and things would move to the House of Representatives. In Navarro's own words: "There is a provision to go, rather than through the Electoral College, to the House of Representatives. And all that's required was peace and calm on Capitol Hill." So I'm not sure that the violence on Capitol Hill helped in the way you suggest - instead, maybe it could even be argued that it made those lawmakers less likely to go through with the plan as it would be seen as giving in to the violence. Trump riling up those gullible clowns into a display of violence may have hindered his own team's plans.

But now it's a case of:

Well, you have three choices:

1. Vote him in
2. If you don't vote him in, we will overturn your vote
3. If we cannot overturn your vote there will be violence at the Capitol. Are you listening, Loyal Representatives? You know what to do.

So, sure, the terrorists were never going to hold Capitol Building until trump was announced as supreme overlord. However they demonstrated that if their representatives in Congress were not going to do what the terrorists want, then there will be violence against them. This is the very goal of terrorism: Do what they want or there will be trouble. So, by definition, these people are terrorists. And, as long as the GOP do not denounce trump, they are supporting/advocating American terrorism.