Munster v Leinster Build Up Thread

arsebiscuits1

aloooof wrote: »

Casey was on for what, 6 minutes? Really harsh to judge him just on that. He’s been excellent this season overall.

I had him at 4 box kicks. 1 of which was mildly contestable.

When you're chasing a game and want impact from your subs they needed to be better.

Munsters game plan of putting the Leinster back 3 under pressure with kicks worked superbly. Casey didn't add to that.

awec

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

From an Ireland POV

Winners

Beirne
Coombes
POM (another good performance at openside)
Haley
James Ryan (best game he's played in a long time)
Henshaw
Ringrose (looked to be back fit)

Losers

Cronin
Marshall
Hanrahan
Farrell
Ruddock
Connors (stats may prove me wrong but apart from tackling it's difficult to see what he brings)
McGrath
There's an argument for adding Keenan but in all likelihood there's zero chance of him being dropped, especially for Haley.

Larmour is a loser too. Hopelessly exposed under the aerial threat.

arsebiscuits1

almostover wrote: »

This is where Ireland selections have to change though. Ruddock is a safe bet for the 6N squad. Hardworking, abrasive and a decent lineout option. Coombes has the potential to be destructive and if I could criticise him he looks like his fitness is 5% or so off at this level. Easily remedied. Coombes is the selection if you want to go to RWC 2023 with a destructive option in the backrow. Him and Doris in the backrow would give us some heavy carrying options.

This i agree with.

Coombes is a future pick. He's easily european standard at barely 23 years old.

He's durable and uncompromising and actually reminds me a lot of Ruddock.

I think Coombes has a really bright future in green and would love to see him in Green sooner than later.

However if we're going solely on form i don't think Coombes should be there at the expense of Ruddock

AdamD

Think Chris Farrell and Will Connors would be two who didn't do much for their Ireland chances today

Think some of the Larmour calls are quite exaggerated

Beirne, Haley, Keenan, Henshaw and Ryan played well

stephen_n

CrazyFather1 wrote: »

Not the only one to be honest. Munster box kicking was good.
I don't like how people are always on Larmours back, he has been out for weeks and only coming back from an injury. Any mistake and people are all over him. He is still very young but he is one of the most skilful players in Ireland, maybe we should try to enjoy him instead of constantly trying to find fault

He knocked on 3 balls in the first 12 minutes of the game. That is an absolute liability at this level. He is undoubtedly one of the best attacking options we have. That’s not the first time he has had a nightmare under the highball though. It is a consistent problem in his game.

almostover

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

This i agree with.

Coombes is a future pick. He's easily european standard at barely 23 years old.

He's durable and uncompromising and actually reminds me a lot of Ruddock.

I think Coombes has a really bright future in green and would love to see him in Green sooner than later.

However if we're going solely on form i don't think Coombes should be there at the expense of Ruddock

Would love to see Dan Leavy make it back to the level he was once at and Coombes fulfill his potential. If you teamed that up with Doris continuing to deliver on his potential you would be looking at a massive backrow for the 2023 RWC. Agree with you that Farrel should pick on form but we badly need to perform for once at a world cup as a nation. That means putting guys in with an eye to the future. France have done that, look at how they backed a young Gregory Aldritt. He's a serious player now. We need to start doing the same.

realhorrorshow

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Murray's box kicking was on the money tonight. Really accurate and effective.

Mcgrath for all the plaudits he is getting was nowhere near his standard and Casey was several leagues below both.

Murray still the standout 9 in Ireland. Excellent performance tonight

Harsh on Casey, he played 6 minutes.

arsebiscuits1

Just a word on Hugo Keenan.

His involvement for the try was just class. Just watched the highlights there.

It was such a wonderfully executed moved. But Byrne seemed to fluff his kick a bit and it seemed like it needed another 5m on it.

Keenan barrels through, gets the ball, takes contact on his own terms and offloads straight into the bread basket of Larmour. All in the space of less than 2 seconds. Unbelievable skill. And just expected of him now. Standout 15 in Ireland at the moment

TomsOnTheRoof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I'd need to watch it again but Connors as a chop tackle specialist made 6 tackles in 60 minutes (i had him at 4 missed) this was the lowest amount of any Leinster forward bad Cronin (5)

He did carry a reasonable 10 times but overall I feel the game passed him by.

Didn't realise he was so low on the tackle count. He'll struggle to get back in to the starting 23 with POM and JVDF

arsebiscuits1

realhorrorshow wrote: »

Harsh on Casey, he played 6 minutes.

As above.

He had 4 kicks. Not an insignificant amount of kicks in 6 minutes. Only one was contestable and it was still long.

arsebiscuits1

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Didn't realise he was so low on the tackle count. He'll struggle to get back in to the starting 23 with POM and JVDF

It could be an anomaly. He's normally so consistent.

But he didn't impress tonight. And with the level of competition you cannot let big games pass you by.

I agree. I wouldn't have him ahead of either POM or VDF

aloooof

Thought POM was good again 2nite. Don't think it's a coincidence that his performances have improved since he's moved to 7 and been paired with Stander and Doris, or Stander and Coombes.

s0677674

Agree with that, my only concern is that we are focussing irelands game on box kicking....

molloyjh

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Just a word on Hugo Keenan.

His involvement for the try was just class. Just watched the highlights there.

It was such a wonderfully executed moved. But Byrne seemed to fluff his kick a bit and it seemed like it needed another 5m on it.

Keenan barrels through, gets the ball, takes contact on his own terms and offloads straight into the bread basket of Larmour. All in the space of less than 2 seconds. Unbelievable skill. And just expected of him now. Standout 15 in Ireland at the moment

Did the kick not take a deflection off a Munster boot?

Burkie1203

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Just a word on Hugo Keenan.

His involvement for the try was just class. Just watched the highlights there.

It was such a wonderfully executed moved. But Byrne seemed to fluff his kick a bit and it seemed like it needed another 5m on it.

Keenan barrels through, gets the ball, takes contact on his own terms and offloads straight into the bread basket of Larmour. All in the space of less than 2 seconds. Unbelievable skill. And just expected of him now. Standout 15 in Ireland at the moment

Looks like the Munster player got a touch on it.


https://twitter.com/leinsterrugby/status/1353098979916066820?s=19

Buer

What a gather by Keenan off a deflection. Incredible anticipation.

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

As above.

He had 4 kicks. Not an insignificant amount of kicks in 6 minutes. Only one was contestable and it was still long.

Fair enough. Just think it's far too short a cameo to be drawing conclusions along the lines of a any player being "several leagues" below the standard.

arsebiscuits1

molloyjh wrote: »

Did the kick not take a deflection off a Munster boot?

It might have. I remember on replay looking for it and it not being clear but the angle wasn't great to see it.

If it did take a deflection for me it makes it better from Hugo. Adds great reactions into his sequence of success there

molloyjh

almostover wrote: »

This is where Ireland selections have to change though. Ruddock is a safe bet for the 6N squad. Hardworking, abrasive and a decent lineout option. Coombes has the potential to be destructive and if I could criticise him he looks like his fitness is 5% or so off at this level. Easily remedied. Coombes is the selection if you want to go to RWC 2023 with a destructive option in the backrow. Him and Doris in the backrow would give us some heavy carrying options.

Just on this, after being one of the few to come out of the RWC in credit for his performances, Ruddock was not selected by Farrell in the 2020 6Ns. Instead guys like Doris and Deegan were selected ahead of him. After the Covid break Doris and Connors were selected ahead of him.

Ireland dont need to change because they are doing the exact thing you want them to already, ignoring guys like Ruddock for younger lads with promise.

arsebiscuits1

aloooof wrote: »

Fair enough. Just think it's far too short a cameo to be drawing conclusions along the lines of a any player being "several leagues" below the standard.

25% return on kicks being sent from the middle third of the pitch against a back 3 that's had minimal success and features a scrum half covering wing is enough to draw a conclusion from me.

Yes Casey is a good player. Probably the strongest pass of any 9 in Ireland.

But that performance was leagues below what is expected in big games.

uptherebels

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Just a word on Hugo Keenan.

His involvement for the try was just class. Just watched the highlights there.

It was such a wonderfully executed moved. But Byrne seemed to fluff his kick a bit and it seemed like it needed another 5m on it.

Keenan barrels through, gets the ball, takes contact on his own terms and offloads straight into the bread basket of Larmour. All in the space of less than 2 seconds. Unbelievable skill. And just expected of him now. Standout 15 in Ireland at the moment

What do understand bread basket to mean? Larmour having to take it at the limit of his reach is not in the bread basket.

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

25% return on kicks being sent from the middle third of the pitch against a back 3 that's had minimal success and features a scrum half covering wing is enough to draw a conclusion from me.

Yes Casey is a good player. Probably the strongest pass of any 9 in Ireland.

But that performance was leagues below what is expected in big games.

It was 6 minutes. And 4 kicks. It's a tiny, tiny sample size to be drawing any conclusion, tbh.

ElisaAtWar

Everything aside that was just a typical ****e game disguised at provincial level that just eats at the fabric of Irish rugby. We have nothing to show for our professional claims. Leinster is better than Munster. And that was the highlight. Both were muck and personified the state of Irish rugby

arsebiscuits1

uptherebels wrote: »

What do understand bread basket to mean? Larmour having to take it at the limit of his reach is not in the bread basket.

That was exaggeration for effect.

But if you think this was the limit of his reach you should probably have a bit more faith in a professional rugby player

The Inbetween is mine

Anyone starting a match thread?

aloooof

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

We have nothing to show for our professional claims.

What.

arsebiscuits1

ElisaAtWar wrote: »

Everything aside that was just a typical ****e game disguised at provincial level that just eats at the fabric of Irish rugby. We have nothing to show for our professional claims. Leinster is better than Munster. And that was the highlight. Both were muck and personified the state of Irish rugby

Is your knee ok?

uptherebels

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

That was exaggeration for effect.

But if you think this was the limit of his reach you should probably have a bit more faith in a professional rugby player

What effect? you got caught talking nonsense. Maybe next time don't needlessly exaggerate professional players doing basic things.

arsebiscuits1

uptherebels wrote: »

What effect? you got caught talking nonsense. Maybe next time don't needlessly exaggerate professional players doing basic things.

Haha ok mate.

Keenan's involvement was incredible at the pace he executed it at which was the point I was making.

If you consider it nonsense that's fine....

degsie

Some amount of sour grapes being served up here tonight.

The Inbetween is mine

degsie wrote: »

Some amount of sour grapes being served up here tonight.

Professional moaners..best left to their own devices

uptherebels

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Haha ok mate.

Keenan's involvement was incredible at the pace he executed it at which was the point I was making.

If you consider it nonsense that's fine....

A player chasing a kick through and firing a pass to the guy outside him is basic stuff for most players nevermind professionals. Your need to exaggerate it to something it isn't is pointless and needless.

molloyjh

Overall I thought that was a good game. Maybe not the most exciting from a neutrals perspective, but it was fairly full blooded with 2 excellent defences on show. It was infinitely better than the tripe served up in Llanelli last night. Murray and Ryan both seem to be returning to form at a good time. Henshaw was excellent. Beirne made a real impact which will have him in the frame for Ireland. Lots of positives. Sure Larmour was poor in the air, but thats the weakest part of his game and he's just back from injury. He was good everywhere else, he just needs to get back to work on his aerial skills. He's fixed it before, he can again.

Fingers crossed Sexton and POM aren't too bad....

thomond2006

I can't understand the take that it wasn't a good game. The lineouts were a bit of a shambles but other than that there was a lot of quality on show. It was a brutal, physical clash. The two goalline stands by Munster were fantastic drama. The Leinster try, while it had an element of luck, was taken well with an outstanding assist from Keenan. Murray's kicking game was excellent.

aloooof

molloyjh wrote: »

Overall I thought that was a good game. Maybe not the most exciting from a neutrals perspective, but it was fairly full blooded with 2 excellent defences on show. It was infinitely better than the tripe served up in Llanelli last night. Murray and Ryan both seem to be returning to form at a good time. Henshaw was excellent. Beirne made a real impact which will have him in the frame for Ireland. Lots of positives. Sure Larmour was poor in the air, but thats the weakest part of his game and he's just back from injury. He was good everywhere else, he just needs to get back to work on his aerial skills. He's fixed it before, he can again.

Fingers crossed Sexton and POM aren't too bad....

A word for Henshaw, thought he was largely excellent and he contests (and wins) in the air far more than most 12's to my mind, which clearly isn't an accident. (I'd be interested to hear what Leinster and Connacht fans have to say, but he seems to be doing this a lot more recently?)

He also seems to have added a try scoring threat to his game this season too. I'm a big Aki fan, but I just think Henshaw offers far more variety.

Always thought it was difficult to pick 2 out of 3 from Aki, Henshaw and Ringose (not least because they never all seemed to be available at the same time) but Henshaw and Ringrose the clear 12 and 13 for me at the moment.

leakyboots

Henshaw is locked in for me, great to see him back to form

arsebiscuits1

uptherebels wrote: »

A player chasing a kick through and firing a pass to the guy outside him is basic stuff for most players nevermind professionals. Your need to exaggerate it to something it isn't is pointless and needless.

Well if you can't appreciate Keenan's involvement there's no point continuing this.

Hopefully after you've had time to sleep and reflect you'll see sense.

Either way. Enjoy the rest of your weekend

ElisaAtWar

Uw

thomond2006 wrote: »

I can't understand the take that it wasn't a good game. The lineouts were a bit of a shambles but other than that there was a lot of quality on show. It was a brutal, physical clash. The two goalline stands by Munster were fantastic drama. The Leinster try, while it had an element of luck, was taken well with an outstanding assist from Keenan. Murray's kicking game was excellent.

I think if you had a read of your assessment of the game and evaluated what you said you might conclude that what you witnessed was more a stale, lacking in imagination game, that is systemic at both provincial and national level within Ireland today. I do not say the ability is not there, I say the ideas are not there. Our two best provinces today delivered nothing

And the less said about JJ the better. And Sexton is well past his prime. So you just end up with a big bullying match. It is embarrassing to witness to what levels we have stooped

wavehopper1

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

Just a word on Hugo Keenan.

His involvement for the try was just class. Just watched the highlights there.

It was such a wonderfully executed moved. But Byrne seemed to fluff his kick a bit and it seemed like it needed another 5m on it.

Keenan barrels through, gets the ball, takes contact on his own terms and offloads straight into the bread basket of Larmour. All in the space of less than 2 seconds. Unbelievable skill. And just expected of him now. Standout 15 in Ireland at the moment

Might have been Devin Toner's bread basket! Larmour had to reach up at full pelt. Both players did exceptionally well.

Morathi

uptherebels wrote: »

A player chasing a kick through and firing a pass to the guy outside him is basic stuff for most players nevermind professionals. Your need to exaggerate it to something it isn't is pointless and needless.

Pointless AND needless? :eek:

guapos

Thoughts on the hip check on keenan to the head that went unpunished?. Thought it should have been a penalty myself,you can't just jump into a player there needs to be a tackle.

Also how did Brace miss that "tackle" on henshaw just before halftime that got them the peno to move upfield.

Would like to see Coombs in the squad but when we're picking Earles and Sexton then Ruddock deserves to be in.

irishbucsfan

Hopefully the introduction of more South African teams will potentially add someone who can test Leinster in this competition

Buer

guapos wrote: »

Thoughts on the hip check on keenan to the head that went unpunished?. Thought it should have been a penalty myself,you can't just jump into a player there needs to be a tackle.

I wouldn't blame Brace too much for not spotting it but he should absolutely be getting support from his assistants and the TMO and instructing them to check it. That sort of moment is a massive swing. It should have been a penalty to Leinster from wherever the ball landed. Instead, Leinster are scrambling back on their own line as Munster know the full back is down.

The Inbetween is mine

I fully expected Munster to win that game, we played well... but didn't punish Leinster at critical times....the difference between going in 13-3 and actually 10-6 at halftime was massive.
We had chances to punish them in the second half ..and again didn't take them...what's that old saying, "never give a sucker an even break"?
They hung in...they battled away and took the one chance they were given...that's the difference between a good side, and a great side ...

The Inbetween is mine

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I fully expected Munster to win that game, we played well... but didn't punish Leinster at critical times....the difference between going in 13-3 and actually 10-6 at halftime was massive.
We had chances to punish them in the second half ..and again didn't take them...what's that old saying, "never give a sucker an even break"?
They hung in...they battled away and took the one chance they were given...that's the difference between a good side, and a great side ...

I watched the game again this morning, JJ had a bad penalty miss right at the start of the 2nd half but beyond that Munster didn't really threaten Leinster at all.

Scratchly

This Beirne has to start for Ireland talk is giving me deja vu. We've been through it before. He's a turnover master in club games but when he's moved up a level his ability to poach is vastly diminished and without the big turnover moments he looks pretty average.

awec

As a "neutral", hoping for a comprehensive Munster victory:

Munster looked good in the first 10-12 minutes when Leinster were all at sea and got their points on the board.
Defensively, Munster were solid, stopping Leinster on their own line twice.
Once Leinster got themselves sorted, they ate up anything Munster could throw at them in attack. Munster still have a way to go in attack IMO.
The Leinster try had an element of luck but was a quality score.
After the try, Munster had no idea what to do. Resorted to kicking the ball away again. Terrible knock on from DDA to end it.
Munster are wasting their time with Hanrahan. Pick Healy.

Truth be told, I think if there is any notion that Munster have closed the gap it's marginally closer at best.

Buer

Miller Dirty Selenium wrote: »

I watched the game again this morning, JJ had a bad penalty miss right at the start of the 2nd half but beyond that Munster didn't really threaten Leinster at all.

Yup. A lot of field position but Leinster really managed those situations well.

I thought he was poor in the first half but McGrath had a great second half. His quick running from any opportunity yielded huge yards and got Leinster well out of the danger zone.

When they did need to win possession from touch, Leinster did it with little fuss. Munster got into Leinster territory a few times but really couldn't break them down and turned over ball more than once. A couple of very poor handling errors from Beirne and DDA of all people were costly.

bayern

5 wins in a row over Munster.
9 wins out of the last 10 games.