Munster v Leinster Build Up Thread

Buer

awec wrote: »

Truth be told, I think if there is any notion that Munster have closed the gap it's marginally closer at best.

I believe the gap has closed but that's more due to Leinster not being as good as they were than Munster progressing.

15 minutes aside, that performance from Munster was a carbon copy of the showings we saw in the Aviva in August/September.

For all the work Larkham has been doing, it's often absent against the top teams. There was a moment in the opening passage where Munster had an overlap on the narrow side, 3 on 2. Munster went through the hands immediately and made it exceptionally easy for the outnumbered winger to defend and Munster were subsequently stalled.

If they could execute those opportunities with consistency, they would be a very dangerous team given their power from 1-13.

JJH can take flak and the missed kick was a shocker but the one dimensional attack wasn't down to him. The plan was to kick. They did it with JJH and Murray and they did it with Healy and Casey. Healy had plenty of ball in his appearance but didn't generate anything. Obviously his ceiling is potentially higher though.

lawred2

awec wrote: »

As a "neutral", hoping for a comprehensive Munster victory:

Munster looked good in the first 10-12 minutes when Leinster were all at sea and got their points on the board.
Defensively, Munster were solid, stopping Leinster on their own line twice.
Once Leinster got themselves sorted, they ate up anything Munster could throw at them in attack. Munster still have a way to go in attack IMO.
The Leinster try had an element of luck but was a quality score.
After the try, Munster had no idea what to do. Resorted to kicking the ball away again. Terrible knock on from DDA to end it.
Munster are wasting their time with Hanrahan. Pick Healy.

Truth be told, I think if there is any notion that Munster have closed the gap it's marginally closer at best.

A lot of time has been wasted over the years waiting for Hanrahan to 'develop'.. he's not really even that reliable a goal kicker.

Buer

lawred2 wrote: »

A lot of time has been wasted over the years waiting for Hanrahan to 'develop'.. he's not really even that reliable a goal kicker.

He was exceptionally reliable until the past year. I think the misses against Leinster in August and the subsequent flak has really gotten inside his head and that's very hard to change once it's there.

You don't win the Golden Boot twice (89% and 91% respectively) without being very reliable.

lawred2

Buer wrote: »

He was exceptionally reliable until the past year. I think the misses against Leinster in August and the subsequent flak has really gotten inside his head and that's very hard to change once it's there.

You don't win the Golden Boot twice (89% and 91% respectively) without being very reliable.

That's obviously a fair point. Maybe it's a perception thing.. but when it matters, I have little confidence in him going 100% off the tee in big games.

Burkie1203

awec wrote: »

Defensively, Munster were solid, stopping Leinster on their own line twice.




Munster are wasting their time with Hanrahan. Pick Healy.

On the first point above, no way they were on their feet for the first open and the 2nd turnover was a terrible decision from Brace as Archer rolled into the way of the leinster players



You should want JJH to continue to be picked. Healy might get pissed off and head up to Belfast in a year or 2

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

He was exceptionally reliable until the past year. I think the misses against Leinster in August and the subsequent flak has really gotten inside his head and that's very hard to change once it's there.

You don't win the Golden Boot twice (89% and 91% respectively) without being very reliable.

Ross Byrne came off the bench and landed a kick from the touchline. JJH can kick penalties but he has far too often missed sitters at clutch moments.

RDS in 2018 he missed from in front of the posts in a SF against a Leinster team sweating beer.

How many times has he missed touch in clutch moments ......

Buer

Buer wrote: »

I believe the gap has closed but that's more due to Leinster not being as good as they were than Munster progressing.

15 minutes aside, that performance from Munster was a carbon copy of the showings we saw in the Aviva in August/September.

For all the work Larkham has been doing, it's often absent against the top teams. There was a moment in the opening passage where Munster had an overlap on the narrow side, 3 on 2. Munster went through the hands immediately and made it exceptionally easy for the outnumbered winger to defend and Munster were subsequently stalled.

If they could execute those opportunities with consistency, they would be a very dangerous team given their power from 1-13.

JJH can take flak and the missed kick was a shocker but the one dimensional attack wasn't down to him. The plan was to kick. They did it with JJH and Murray and they did it with Healy and Casey. Healy had plenty of ball in his appearance but didn't generate anything. Obviously his ceiling is potentially higher though.

There was another (what could have been) promising attack in the first half, ball ended up on the wing and who was out there but POM. What the **** is he doing on the wing in attack when you've got some actual pace in the Munster backs?

thomond2006

lawred2 wrote: »

That's obviously a fair point. Maybe it's a perception thing.. but when it matters, I have little confidence in him going 100% off the tee in big games.

He was 9 from 9 in Clermont. He's normally fine but Leinster seems to be a bogey opponent for whatever reason.

yerrahbah

Nice bit of analysis by Jackman,

We had Leinster in their 22, miss a tackle, give away a soft penalty and Leinster score the game winning try

https://twitter.com/bernardjackman/status/1353308378890706944

molloyjh

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Ross Byrne came off the bench and landed a kick from the touchline. JJH can kick penalties but he has far too often missed sitters at clutch moments.

RDS in 2018 he missed from in front of the posts in a SF against a Leinster team sweating beer.

How many times has he missed touch in clutch moments ......

Yeah, in regular season games JJ is reliable. In big games though he can be very hit and miss. And that's been the case for some time now IIRC.

yerrahbah

Miller Dirty Selenium wrote: »

There was another (what could have been) promising attack in the first half, ball ended up on the wing and who was out there but POM. What the **** is he doing on the wing in attack when you've got some actual pace in the Munster backs?

O'Mahony spends a lot of time on the wing for both Munster and Ireland.

BoardsMember

I thought Brace missed a fair bit in Munster favour, but the lineout for the try was so crooked....

The Inbetween is mine

BoardsMember wrote: »

I thought Brace missed a fair bit in Munster favour, but the lineout for the try was so crooked....

Probably was.... but it's all about swings and roundabouts... plenty missed on both sides last night...

thomond2006

BoardsMember wrote: »

I thought Brace missed a fair bit in Munster favour, but the lineout for the try was so crooked....

It was a criminal offside penalty from Wycherley that put Leinster in that position. Munster sabotaged themselves between missed kicks, indiscipline and errors while 10-0 ahead. That game was there to be won. Leinster got a bit of luck with the deflection on the kick through for the try and that's all they needed.

Burkie1203

just watched the game back.

Shane Daly should have got a red card. Like its direct contact to the head. Not even a penalty is shameful from the officials.

Burkie1203

BoardsMember wrote: »

I thought Brace missed a fair bit in Munster favour, but the lineout for the try was so crooked....

Marshall could easily have seen a YC for the tackle on Henshaw. On another day thats a serious injury

Daly should definitely have been sent off IMO. Direct contact to the head.

The two turnovers on the line were both very lucky decisions for Munster

BoardsMember

Burkie1203 wrote: »

just watched the game back.

Shane Daly should have got a red card. Like its direct contact to the head. Not even a penalty is shameful from the officials.

Agreed. I was roaring at the television. Player stayed down and there was a break in play. Hard to fathom how TMO didn't get involved.

Also not sure how the no arms tackle was not penalised. I thought at least one of the Munster turnovers on the try line were dubious, and I also don't think the Munsrer try would have been given at lot of the time. But thats a Leinster supporter perspective.

Burkie1203

BoardsMember wrote: »

Agreed. I was roaring at the television. Player stayed down and there was a break in play. Hard to fathom how TMO didn't get involved.

Also not sure how the no arms tackle was not penalised. I thought at least one of the Munster turnovers on the try line were dubious, and I also don't think the Munsrer try would have been given at lot of the time. But thats a Leinster supporter perspective.

the munster try i dont think anyone can have issues with. The refs position was quite good and you look at one or two of the Leinster players body language and that tells you they saw a grounded ball too

The turnover in the 2nd half was a joke. Archer just flopped onto the Leinster side stopping any support getting to the breakdown. Given the position of the pitch a YC could have been given if the ref called it that way.

theVersatile

Jesus Christ lads. Marshall slid in to gather the ball as you're allowed to do and Henshaw got the brunt of it. It's a rugby collision. You'd swear he kicked him on purpose to trip him. The Daly/Keenan is barely a penalty - and the space wouldn't have been there to exploit if he'd just played away instead of trying to milk a penalty. Thank God he recovered so quickly once the ball was kicked in behind tho - I was awfully worried for his health...

Quick edit: note I haven't reviewed either incident since so perhaps red tinted glasses

thomond2006

theVersatile wrote: »

Jesus Christ lads. Marshall slid in to gather the ball as you're allowed to do and Henshaw got the brunt of it. It's a rugby collision. You'd swear he kicked him on purpose to trip him. The Daly/Keenan is barely a penalty - and the space wouldn't have been there to exploit if he'd just played away instead of trying to milk a penalty. Thank God he recovered so quickly once the ball was kicked in behind tho - I was awfully worried for his health...

Quick edit: note I haven't reviewed either incident since so perhaps red tinted glasses

He was bleeding from the mouth and was clearly hurt. Give over.

theVersatile

theVersatile wrote: »

Jesus Christ lads. Marshall slid in to gather the ball as you're allowed to do and Henshaw got the brunt of it. It's a rugby collision. You'd swear he kicked him on purpose to trip him. The Daly/Keenan is barely a penalty - and the space wouldn't have been there to exploit if he'd just played away instead of trying to milk a penalty. Thank God he recovered so quickly once the ball was kicked in behind tho - I was awfully worried for his health...

Quick edit: note I haven't reviewed either incident since so perhaps red tinted glasses

Keenan is hardly the first player to be down injured or even getting treatment to get up and play on when the ball comes back his way. It doesn't mean he was faking and suggestion he was is just nonsense.

Burkie1203

theVersatile wrote: »

Jesus Christ lads. Marshall slid in to gather the ball as you're allowed to do and Henshaw got the brunt of it. It's a rugby collision. You'd swear he kicked him on purpose to trip him. The Daly/Keenan is barely a penalty - and the space wouldn't have been there to exploit if he'd just played away instead of trying to milk a penalty. Thank God he recovered so quickly once the ball was kicked in behind tho - I was awfully worried for his health...

Quick edit: note I haven't reviewed either incident since so perhaps red tinted glasses

Marshall was nowhere near sliding to gather the ball. Henshaw already has the ball in his arms at chest height before Marshall goes to ground. His immediate reaction is to hold his hands up. Brace was metres away. How he can claimed to have missed it is beyond me. Henshaw on another day leaves the field on a stretcher.


https://twitter.com/barryfromhome/status/1353288616081035265?s=19



Daly elbow connected with Keenans face. Thats a red card offence. There is no mitigation. Like Marshall he immediately holds his hands up knowing he has done wrong.

theVersatile

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Marshall was nowhere near sliding to gather the ball. Henshaw already has the ball in his arms at chest height before Marshall goes to ground. His immediate reaction is to hold his hands up. Brace was metres away. How he can claimed to have missed it is beyond me. Henshaw on another day leaves the field on a stretcher.


https://twitter.com/barryfromhome/status/1353288616081035265?s=19



Daly elbow connected with Keenans face. Thats a red card offence. There is no mitigation. Like Marshall he immediately holds his hands up knowing he has done wrong.

I concede on Marshall that looks fairly bad. I'd still like to see the Daly Keenan incident again before judging.

Dave_The_Sheep

If you're looking for the point of contact, here you are:



So, to conclude, nothing in it, Keenan was absolutely milking it, Neymar levels of soft, etc, etc.

molloyjh

CJ was carded for jumping into Lambie and making contact with the head. What exactly is the difference with that and what Daly did? Not even considering the increase in focus on contact to the head now compared to 2016.

As for the incident with Henshaw, I didn't see it properly at the time, but looking at the replay above that def a card. Going feet first into contact like that is incredibly dangerous.

Buer

That's a great screen shot, in fairness.

I don't know how anyone could think it wasn't a blatant penalty or that Keenan was milking it when the footage clearly showed him getting treatment for blood on his face following the collision.

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

CJ was carded for jumping into Lambie and making contact with the head. What exactly is the difference with that and what Daly did? Not even considering the increase in focus on contact to the head now compared to 2016.

Stander absolutely obliterated Lambie. The force of the collision was on a totally other level. Stander hadn't even jumped when Lambie kicked the ball.

This was far more unfortunate and Daly clipped Keenan in the face. Definite penalty, yellow deserved if he got it. There wasn't a massive level of force and he was committed when the ball was kicked.

I'd say red would have been extremely harsh.

arsebiscuits1

molloyjh wrote: »

CJ was carded for jumping into Lambie and making contact with the head. What exactly is the difference with that and what Daly did? Not even considering the increase in focus on contact to the head now compared to 2016.

As for the incident with Henshaw, I didn't see it properly at the time, but looking at the replay above that def a card. Going feet first into contact like that is incredibly dangerous.

Had the exact same conversation with some of my mates last night.

Carbon copy of CJs (correct) red card in 2016.

The difference is the disparity in weight between CJ and Lambie.

Reckless by Daly. You cant hurtle yourself about like that. Needs to be more responsible for his actions there

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

Stander absolutely obliterated Lambie. The force of the collision was on a totally other level. Stander hadn't even jumped when Lambie kicked the ball.

This was far more unfortunate and Daly clipped Keenan in the face. Definite penalty, yellow deserved if he got it. There wasn't a massive level of force and he was committed when the ball was kicked.

I'd say red would have been extremely harsh.

I remember munster fans going nuts when Ben Whitehouse went on about medium force about 2 years ago to issue a YC instead of Red.

He didn't clip Keenan in the face. His elbow hit him literally flush in the mouth. Its a red card offence for me.

molloyjh

Buer wrote: »

Stander absolutely obliterated Lambie. The force of the collision was on a totally other level. Stander hadn't even jumped when Lambie kicked the ball.

This was far more unfortunate and Daly clipped Keenan in the face. Definite penalty, yellow deserved if he got it. There wasn't a massive level of force and he was committed when the ball was kicked.

I'd say red would have been extremely harsh.

I'm not sure the force of the impact is hugely relevant in terms of the laws or interpretations. Stander also did it at a time when there was relatively little focus on impacts to the head relative to today. Maybe there's logic to the lateness of the hit itself, but given the way the game is looking to avoid collisions to the head this is one that could easily have been a red IMO.

mun1

Lot of sore winners on here today. Cant enjoy the win without looking for something more , red cards etc. too much like soccer.

Anything to distract from the performance i suppose .

Thought it was a poor quality match probably dictated by the weather .
Cant imagine either side being happy with their performance .

molloyjh

mun1 wrote: »

Lot of sore winners on here today. Cant enjoy the win without looking for something more , red cards etc. too much like soccer.

Anything to distract from the performance i suppose .

Thought it was a poor quality match probably dictated by the weather .
Cant imagine either side being happy with their performance .

You realise that we are here to discuss the game, right? And this is a perfectly valid talking point...

salmocab

mun1 wrote: »

Lot of sore winners on here today. Cant enjoy the win without looking for something more , red cards etc. too much like soccer.

Anything to distract from the performance i suppose .

Thought it was a poor quality match probably dictated by the weather .
Cant imagine either side being happy with their performance .

Should have a read last night at some sore losers

mun1

salmocab wrote: »

Should have a read last night at some sore losers

But most competitive people are sore losers ( I certainly am), but sore winners ?

Buer

molloyjh wrote: »

I'm not sure the force of the impact is hugely relevant in terms of the laws or interpretations. Stander also did it at a time when there was relatively little focus on impacts to the head relative to today. Maybe there's logic to the lateness of the hit itself, but given the way the game is looking to avoid collisions to the head this is one that could easily have been a red IMO.

You'll nearly always hear a referee reference force and mitigation when considering a sanction for contact to the head. For me, the referee would say that the force was minor to medium and the mitigation was that he was already committed to the block down. The onus is on him to not harm the kicker so definite penalty and a yellow card, to my mind.

In these instances, I really don't think the two incidents are comparable. I just went back and watched the Stander one again. It was GBH compared to this.

Burkie1203

mun1 wrote: »

But most competitive people are sore losers ( I certainly am), but sore winners ?

What discussing talking points around poor refereeing in regard to player welfare? The single most important aspect to any game is player welfare.

Lost Ormond

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

If you're looking for the point of contact, here you are:



So, to conclude, nothing in it, Keenan was absolutely milking it, Neymar levels of soft, etc, etc.

Keenan isnt milking it but it isnt a penalty or other sanction

Buer wrote: »

Stander absolutely obliterated Lambie. The force of the collision was on a totally other level. Stander hadn't even jumped when Lambie kicked the ball.

This was far more unfortunate and Daly clipped Keenan in the face. Definite penalty, yellow deserved if he got it. There wasn't a massive level of force and he was committed when the ball was kicked.

I'd say red would have been extremely harsh.

He clipped him. Red or even yellow would have been harsh

Buer

Burkie1203 wrote: »

He didn't clip Keenan in the face. His elbow hit him literally flush in the mouth.

That's really just semantics. An elbow can make relatively little contact with someone and open them up. If there was genuine force to the level you're suggesting, Keenan should have been removed for a HIA.

Dave_The_Sheep

Burkie1203 wrote: »

The single most important aspect to any game is player welfare.

Please. As any real Boards.ie rugby follower knows, the most important aspect to any game is getting the moral high ground over the other team's fans.

Yes, I can absolutely say this with both a straight face and a complete lack of self-awareness.

[edit] Given some of the thanks here, I guess my intent may have been missed. Ah well.

Burkie1203

Buer wrote: »

That's really just semantics. An elbow can make relatively little contact with someone and open them up. If there was genuine force to the level you're suggesting, Keenan should have been removed for a HIA.

Its contact to the head with force.

Red card.

salmocab

mun1 wrote: »

But most competitive people are sore losers ( I certainly am), but sore winners ?

Well have a read back at some of the nonsense, you’re just reading into people’s comments what you want. If Munster had won we’d be seeing the same sort of stuff fro the red side. This belief that somehow the other side are any different to my side is just rubbish. Each side has people who post rubbish , that post about refereeing, that post how certain players were better or worse than they were.

The Inbetween is mine

I don't find any real need to micro analyze every aspect of the game and the referees decisions. Plenty of issues to be found on both sides if you look long and hard enough

Think I'll wait for the citings to be announced before I reach epic proportions of indignation

TomsOnTheRoof

Jesus this place is a cesspit at times

salmocab

The Inbetween is mine wrote: »

I don't find any real need to micro analyze every aspect of the game and the referees decisions. Plenty of issues to be found on both sides if you look long and hard enough

Think I'll wait for the citings to be announced before I reach epic proportions of indignation

If we pick apart every little thing in a game that wasn’t quite within the laws we’d still be talking as the next match kicks off. Practically every scrum is a crooked feed, hookers stand on the line throwing in that I genuinely think I missed the rules changing.

costacorta

Dave_The_Sheep wrote: »

If you're looking for the point of contact, here you are:



So, to conclude, nothing in it, Keenan was absolutely milking it, Neymar levels of soft, etc, etc.

You could also look at that picture and give a penalty to Munster as Keenan is tackling a player in the air ??

Burkie1203

costacorta wrote: »

You could also look at that picture and give a penalty to Munster as Keenan is tackling a player in the air ??

Keenan (in blue) had just kicked the ball. He wasn't tackling anyone.

Daly (in red) tried to block it and the onus of responsibility is on Daly to not connect with Keenan.

mun1

Ball doesn’t need to go down the middle, only has to be straight and No 9 can feed it in a shoulder width off the centre line of scrum. Changed a couple of years ago.
Line outs are a mess and you will see the biggest inconsistencies with refs on this set piece.

costacorta

costacorta wrote: »

You could also look at that picture and give a penalty to Munster as Keenan is tackling a player in the air ??

Absolutely no. Keenan had the ball and had just kicked it.

Clegg

Re-watched the game. That was a proper dogfight with huge intensity in the hits. Both teams defended excellently. We can talk about a lack of quality in attack, but but both sides defended well. Leinster shaded it however in that regard. Our centred shut down a lot of Munster's plays in that channel and forced them to go wide quickly and we smothered them out there.

Beirne was excellent, but Ryan was even better. He was at the heart of everything Leinster did well last night. Stole two of Munster's lineouts, was inevitably the first or second man at the ruck and did the bulk of our tackling and heavy carrying. He was probably our best player against Ulster a few weeks ago and has kicked in even further. He had a relatively quiet 2020, but is starting to hit his 2018-2019 at just the right time.

Dave_The_Sheep

costacorta wrote: »

You could also look at that picture and give a penalty to Munster as Keenan is tackling a player in the air ??

That is certainly a take.

I mean it's utterly incorrect, since Keenan has just kicked the ball and Daly has just elbowed him in the mouth, but it's a take all the same.